EV Digest 5460
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How to search the Archives
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) TdS Report #4: A Bit More Detail on the Entrants
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Cannot come to the Tour de Sol? May is Junior Solar Sprints month.
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV-related biz plan (pallet jack recharge)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DC-DC converters, related questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC-DC converters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NEDRA Nationals - date chosen yet?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: DC-DC converters
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tremendous thanks for the info everybody.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet Fields wrote:
I would like to search and/or browse the archives,
3 "archives" that I know of.
Digest mode:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/
Individual posts:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another thing to consider - how will you wire them together? I am not sure
if you can solder the ends to wires, but you may be able to use a spot
welder designed for connecting metal straps to batteries. A good connection
will be critical, as it will be a nightmare trying to find a bad connection
when 2200 batteries are connected together.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joel Hacker
Sent: May 8, 2006 3:41 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
Hopefully you get another price break when you order more than 1000
batteries. Don't forget that someone has to wire them all together also...
Let us know what you do and how much it costs as some of us might want to
follow in your footsteps...
Also, you might want to try searching for higher power lion batteries so you
wouldn't need so many parallel strings to reach your AH capacity...
> You're looking at ~2200 of those little lions.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #4: A Bit More Detail on the Entrants
The Tour de Sol Entrants page has a bit more detail about who is brining what.
Extracted from:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2006Entrants.php
MONTE CARLO-STYLE RALLY
Vehicle #
Participants-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
Participant name
City State
HYBRID DIVISION
TOYOTA PRIUS "CLASSIC" (2001-2003)
60
James Bush
2001 Toyota Prius Classic
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
James Bush
Marlboro MA
51
James Mell
2003 Toyota Prius Classic
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
James Mell
Holyoke MA
38
The Green Team
2002 Toyota Prius Classic
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
Drew and Barbara Gillett
Bedford MA
44
Waquoit Bay Research Reserve
2002 Toyota Prius Classic
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
Joan Muller
East Falmouth MA
TOYOTA PRIUS (2004-2006)
50
Brad Miller and Chip Dunn
2005 Toyota Prius
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
Brad Miller and Chip Dunn
Worcester MA
46
Hybrid Center http://www.hybridcenter.org
2006 Toyota Prius
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
Gilles Labelle
Westboro MA
57
Prius Owners Group
Toyota Prius
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
Russell Frost
Lancaster PA
34
Vital Point http://www.vitalpoint.com
2006 Toyota Prius
HEV: Gasoline + Panasonic NMH
John Schnebly
Wynantskill NY
HONDA INSIGHT - MANUAL TRANSMISSION
41
C. Michael Lewis Graphics
2000 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Michael Lewis
Portland ME
52
Charles Sullivan
2001 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Charles Sullivan
West Lebanon CT
59
Eric Sprague
2000 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Eric Sprague
New York NY
42
Interfaith Power & Light
2000 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Steve MacAusland
Dedham MA
55
John Waiveris
2001 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
John Waiveris
Windsor CT
47
Solar Design Associates
2001 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Erich Dieffenbach
Hudson MA
40
Wayne Gerdes
2000 Honda Insight - manual
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
WayneGerdes
Wadsworth IL
HONDA CIVIC HYBRID - CVT
48
Kurkoski Solar Electric
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Janice and Steve Kurkoski
Warwick MA
58
Michel Houle
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid CVT
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Michel Houle
St. Colonban
Quebec Canada
FORD ESCAPE HYBRID & MERCURY MARRINER
43
NYSERDA
Ford Escape
HEV: Gaoline + Electric Assist
Dave McCabe
Albany NYbec
MODIFIED HYBRIDS - PLUG-IN HYBRIDS
49
Genesis One
2000 Honda Insight -manual trany
Solar charged with MIMA controls
Mike Dabrowski
North Grosvenordale CT
39
Hymotion: Plug-in hybrid kit http://www.hymotion.com/
2005 Toyota Prius conversion Added Li-Ion Battery pack
Ricardo Bazzarella
Concord
Ontario Canada
MODIFIED HYBRIDS - Turbo
61
Hybrid Turbo
2005 Honda Insight - modified
HEV: Modified Honda Insight - Turbo
Jack Lee and Babe
Venice FL
54
Turbocharged
2001 Honda Insight - modified
Modified Honda Insight - Turbo
Willy Williford
Campo CA
ALTERNATIVE FUEL DIVISION
36
Colin McCullough
2000 VW New Beetle TDI
ICE: Biodiesel (B100)
Colin McCullough
Sutton MA
33
Gavin Watson
1973 Porsche 914
ICE: 100% Soybean oil
Gavin Watson
Ridgefield CT
19
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems
1976 Austin Mini Clubman Conversion
ICE: 100% Vegetable oil
Justin Carven
Easthampton MA
35
Homeland Energy Resources Dev't
2005 Honda Civic GX
ICE: CNG
Margaret Sullivan
Syracuse NY
45
Hudson Valley Biodiesel Coop
http://web.mac.com/rgshomo/iWeb/Biodiesel%20Escort%20Project/Welcome.html
1984 Ford Escort diesel
ICE: Biodiesel (B20)
Richard Shomo
Rhinebeck NY
12
Vogelbilt http://www.vogelbilt.com
2004 Ford F250 Pick-up
ICE: Biodiesel (B100)
Carl Vogel
West Babylon NY
DISPLAY ONLY
Denise Barton, Mike Taylor
1982 Mercedes 240D
ICE:Biodiesel - SVO
Denise Barton, Mike Taylor
Redhook NY
Douglas Kabat-Sr. HS Student
1983 Mercedes-Benz 300
ICE: Biodiesel (B50)+WVO
Douglas Kabat
Jaffrey NH
Jeffrey Van Deusen
1997 Volkswagon/Passat TDI
ICE: Biodiesl (B100)
Jeffrey Van Deusen
East Lyme CT
Joanne and Paul Coons
2003 VW Jetta
ICE: Biodiesel - B100
Joanne and Paul Coons
Rexford NY
Michael Wenis
na
na
Michael Wenis
North Salem
AROUND-TOWN VEHICLE COMPETITION
CATEGORY: ELECTRIC BICYCLES AND TRICYLES VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
City State
PRODUCTION DIVISION:
8
Optibike, LLC
Optibike Model 400 Production E-bike pedal assist, model 400
Electric + Pedal: Battery: NiMH and Lithium Ion
Boulder CO
23
RunAbout Cycles
RunAbout (Trike)
Electric + Pedal: Battery: Valence Lithium Ion
Florence MA
INDEPENDENT DIVISION:
9
EV Tech
Modified Wavecrest Tidal Force S750X E-bike
Electric + Pedal: Battery: Lithium Polymer
Pauling NY
25
Michael Powers
Recumbent bike with RunAbout Cycles tech.
Electric: Lithium Ion
Greenfield MA
STUDENT DIVISION:
3
NTID Ebike Club at RIT
Purpose-built (no pedals)
Electric + Thundersky:Lithium Ion
Rochester NY
4
NTID Ebike Club at RIT
Conversion (pedal assist)
Battery Electric + Pedal + Battery: Lithium Ion
Rochester NY
22
Proctor Academy Team Electron
Purpose-built: E-scooter
Electric: PbA
Andover NH
5
NFA Solar Racing Team (HS)
Purpose-built E-bike
Battery: PbA
New Windsor NY
CATEGORY: NEIGHBORHOOD ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
City State
INDEPENDENT DIVISION:
24
Saratoga Spa State Park
GEM Vehicle
BEV: Battery: PbA
Saratoga Springs NY
STUDENT DIVISION:
21
Project e-3 (S. Berkshire RSD)
GEM Vehicle-solar conversion
BEV: PB Solar + Battery:PbA
Sheffield MA
CATEGORY: TRACK (NON-ROAD) ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
City State
STUDENT DIVISION:
6
NFA Solar Racing Team (HS)
non-road Solar assisted EV
Solar (monocrystaline) + Battery PbA
New Windsor NY
26
Colonie Central HS
Non-road Electrathon Vehicle
BEV
West Albany NY
27
Colonie Central HS
Non-road Electrathon Vehicle
BEV
West Albany NY
TOUR DE SOL CHAMPIONSHIP
CATEGORY: HYBRID & ALTERNATIVE FUEL VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
Vehicle Name
City State
INDEPENDENT DIVISION: light duty vehicles
18
Intergalactic Hydrogen
Hummer conversion
ICE: Hydrogen
H2TOY
Sandy UT
12
Vogelbilt
2004 Ford F250 Pick up
ICE: Biodiesl (B100)
Biodiesel Ford 250F
West Babylon NY
19
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems
1976 Austin Mini Clubman Conversion
ICE: 100% Vegetable oil
Greasecar Austin Mini
Easthampton MA
STUDENT DIVISION: light duty vehicles
65
St. Mark's EV Club
2000 VW Jetta TDI
ICE: Biodiesel (B100)
Moritz
Southborough MA
2
WPHS EV Team (West Philly HS)
2005 Attack kit car conversion
ICE: Biodiesel (B100)
The Attack
Philadelphia PA
32
Western Washington U. Hybrid Club
Purpose-built sedan
HEV: Bio-methane + Panasonic NMH
Viking 32
Bellingham WA
STUDENT DIVISION: one-person vehicles
99
DCE Hybrid Car Team (Delhi College, India)
Purpose-Built
HEV: Gasoline (RFG) + Trojan PbA
Fledge
New Delhi India
CATEGORY: BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
Vehicle Name
City State
INDEPENDENT DIVISION: light duty vehicles
20
EVermont
2005 Toyota Echo Conversion
Electrtic: (Battery: ZEBRA nickel sodium chloride)
Evergreen
Waterbury VT
STUDENT DIVISION: light duty vehicles
16
Burlington County Electechs
1986 Ford Escort conversion
Electric (Battery: Exide PbA + GP Lithium Ion
Olympian
Lawrenceville NJ
14
Methacton Electric Car Club (HS)
1999 "Lomax" kit car conversion
Electric (Battery: Eagle Picher PbA)
Lorax
Norristown PA
66
UM Solar Vehicle Team (U. Maine)
1982 Chevy S-15 conversion
Electric (Battery:Trojan PbA)
Phantom Sol
Orono ME
53
North Haven Community School
1987 VW Vanagon conversion
Electric (Battery: Trojan PbA)
rEVolution Ride
North Haven ME
CATEGORY: SOLAR-ASSISTED ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Vehicle #
Participant-Team Name
Make/Model
Propulsion System & Fuel
Vehicle Name
City State
STUDENT DIVISION: One-person light-duty vehicles
17
Penn Solar Racing
Purpose built
Electric (Solar + Battery: Electrovaya Li-polymer)
Keystone
Philadelphia PA
7
West Irondequoit Solar Car Team
1999 Purpose-built
Electric (Solar + Battery: Trojan PbA)
Zodiac
Rochester NY
92
Cato-Meridian High School Tech Team
1992 Purpose-built
Electric (Solar + Battery: Ovonics NiMH)
Sunpacer
Cato NY
STUDENT DIVISION: Two-person light-duty vehicles
56
St. Mark's EV Club
1994 Ford Ranger, conversion
Electric: (Solar + Battery: Trojan PbA)
Woodstock
Southborough MA
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At "<90mOhms" per cell, they're not for heavy discharges. That means
even 5-10 amps can be a significant voltage drop. At 23 in parallel
it's still not a really heavy discharge capability.
Also note that it says "80% capacity after 300 cycles". That doesn't
sound extremely durable.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
When you hook batteries together in series, their current stays the same.
So 94 2.2Ah batteries in series is 348V at 2.2Ah. To get 50 Ah you will
need 23 of these packs. This will cost you $11,681, a pretty decent price.
However, you will need to have a battery management system. If a battery is
overcharged it could cause a dangerous fire. Same could happen in a short
circuit situation.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2006 Northeast Area Junior Solar Sprint Races
My first electric car wasn't big, and I'll your's wasn't either.
Kids love racing solar powered cars they built themselves. Here is a schedule
of events.
From:
http://www.nesea.org/education/jss/jss06_ARaces.html
CT - DC/MD -DE - MA - ME - NH - NJ - NY - PA - RI - VT
Connecticut
Connecticut State Event
Place: Slade Middle School, New Britain, CT
Date: Saturday, May 20
Area Contact
Gregory Kane and John Madden
State of Connecticut
Dept of Education
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
860-713-6756
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Washington, DC/Maryland
Maryland-Washington D.C. Area Event
Place: Takoma Park Middle School, Silver Spring, MD
Date: Tuesday, May 16
Area Contact
Charles Garlow
Electric Vehicle Association of Greater D. C.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
202-564-1088
Delaware
Delaware State Event
Place: Polytech High School, Woodside, DE
Date: Wednesday, May 17,
Rain Date: Thursday, May 18
Area Contact
Charlie Smisson
Delaware Energy Office
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
302-739-1530
Massachusetts
Berkshire-Hudson
Place: Reid Middle School, Pittsfield, MA
Date: Saturday, June 3
Area Contact
Cynthia Grippaldi
Center for Ecological Technology (CET)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nancy Nylen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cape and Islands
Place: Cape Cod Community College Tennis Courts or Basketball Court
Date: Saturday, June 3
Area Contact
Peregrine Carlson
Cape and Islands Self-Reliance Corp.
508-457-7679
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell: 515-310-2827
Richard Lawrence
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Eastern Massachusetts
Place: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA
Date: Saturday, May 20
Area Contact
Henry Vandermark
Solar Wave Energy, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(617) 242-2150
West Central Massachusetts
Place: Western New England College, Springfield, MA
Date: Saturday, June 3
Area Contact
Dick Mindek
Western New England College
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
413-796-2215
Lyn Sullivan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
413-782-1285
Lyn is preferred area event registration contact
Maine
Maine State Event
Place: Owls Head Transportation Museum, Owls Head, ME
Date: Saturday, June 3
Area Contact
Peter Zack
Maine Energy Education Project
(207) 625-7833
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
New Hampshire
Upper Connecticut River Valley
Place: CCBA, Lebanon, NH
Date: Thursday, May 25
Area Contact
Dr. Thomas S. Anderson
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
603-646-4751
New Jersey
Bergen County
Place: Teaneck Community Charter School, Teaneck, NJ
Date: Friday, May 5, 11-2pm
Rain Date: Friday, May 12
Area Contact
Jim Manly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
201-833-9600
Inter-County Final
Fed by County Races:
Morris 5-16, Rain date 5-23
Sussex 5-17, Rain date 5-24
Warren 5-18, Rain date-5-25
Date: Tuesday May 30,
Rain Date: Thursday June 1
Area Contact
Cindy Reuther
TransOptions
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
973-267-7600
Middlesex County
Place: Edgar Middle School, Metuchen, NJ
Date: Saturday, May 13
Area Contact
Ed Ronk
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Somerset County
Place: Warren Township Middle School, Warren, NJ
Date: Saturday, May 20
Area Contact
Maggie Geib
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
New York
Albany Adirondack Area
Place: At the NESEA Tour de Sol,
Saratoga Performing Arts Center parking lot
Saratoga Spa State Park, Saratoga
Springs, NY
Date: Saturday, May 13
Area Contact
Lisa Sax
Adirondack Business and School Partnership, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
518-743-2214
Buffalo
Place: Jamison Road Fire Company Fire Hall
Date: Saturday, May 6
Area Contact
Carl Berger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.geocities.com/jssbuffalo
716-665-1809
NYSTSA
Date: Friday, April 7
Area Contact
Bob Walters
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
607-277-5668
Southern Finger Lakes
Place: Cornell University, Ithaca, NY
Rain site: DeWitt Middle School, Ithaca, NY.
Date: Saturday, May 20
Area Contact
Bob Walters
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
607-277-5668
Pennsylvania
Philadelphia Area
Place: 21st and Winter St. adjacent to north side of Franklin Institute,
Philadelphia, PA
Date: Saturday, May 6
Area Contact
Lisa Rose-Bryant
Philadelphia Solar Energy Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
610-667-0412
Rhode Island
Rhode Island State Event
Place: Rhode Island Sustainable Living Festival
and Clean Energy Expo in West Coventry
Date: Saturday, June 3
Area Contact
Bekah Greenwald
Apeiron Institute for Sustainable Living
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
401-397-3430
Vermont
Northern Vermont
Place: Williston Central School, Williston, VT
Date: Saturday, May 20
Area Contact
Ben Gordesky
Earthbound Services
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lock n Co,
Onboard pallet-jack recharging, certainly would be a small niche market, but
those trucks already have stout cable running rearward to power the liftgate,
which IIRC, is hot only when the ignition is on, to keep the house battery from
being drawn down.
-Jay www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe make the generator a motor/generator and hybridize the truck that
starts and stops alot anyway using the battery in the pallet jack??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the 6350mAH LiPo cell on the site:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=473
<http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=473>
Neato!
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Despite our best efforts I received word today that the V28 MG Chevy
will not be available for the High Voltage Nationals.
Though no fault of Milwaukee's John Zick who continues to push to get
us back on the track, the logistics of a large corp. and the previous
obligations for the car were too much. We are doubling our efforts to
see this machine on the track in Hagerstown in June. We were hoping to
at least be there nice, big, and red in the White Zombie's rear view
but the racing season is still young....
Shawn "One Short" Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend of mine uses 4 of these at a time to run his electric helicopter,
says they have great life, lots of current, runs an AC drive motor with
them.
Mark Grasser
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
Check out the 6350mAH LiPo cell on the site:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=473
<http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=473>
Neato!
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Csci degree to, so others on this list are more qulified to
answer, but I'll have a go.
I assume you mean more than 12V, like 13.8-14.4.
As discussed on this list in the past, the headlight wiring will assume
13.8V or higher and will have to be increased in size (use old headlight
wiring to drive a relay) if you want good brightness. If you are gonna
charge an aux battery(highly recommended, so when the fuse blows at
night, you have enough lights to get somewhere safe) You will need 13.8
to "push" that current into the battery to charge.
220(split phase) is two 110 legs 180 degrees apart, the neutral is
really only needed if you want the 110VAC.
Most switchmode power supplies that can be used on 120/240, just rectify
it and filter it into some large capacitors creating a DC bus of 165/320
V. This is switched at a high frequency to keep the transformer small
and quiet. Ones with a switch labeled 110/220 usually have a second set
of rectifiers for the 110, maybe one less rectifier voltage drop, maybe
an internal doubler.( it is 340V from peak to peak on 110V.!)
Most SMPS will work from as low as 60(gets hot or won't start) to
140(caps smoke) for the 110V side of things, the low end is the problem,
some need 90Vac.
RMS = .707*peak(for a sinusoidal signal) so 120VAC has 170V peaks,
170/14.77 =11.55 batterys so 11 * 12 or 132V nominal pack. The 14.77 is
the charge acceptance voltage, If the dc-dc sees the charger voltage it
could go "pop". 240/.707 = 339V max. /14.77 almost 23 batteries, but why
risk it, you will be raising the acceptance voltage for winter. 22
batteries then or 264V nominal pack. now how low can we go? That is more
difficult to say I would say a 240 labeled device will work on 208V(from
2 legs of a 3phase source, it will just draw more current.) or almost
20 cells. I would guess 19 batteries would still keep it running , but
derated. or 228V Nominal pack.
Voltage sags during acceleration. more so as pack gets empty. I have
AGM's and I draw some decent amps. On a 12V battery 10.5 is the lowest
under load in non-racing conditions you can suck down a battery before
risking cell reversal. If we were to use only 19 cells, 19* 10.5 is
only 200V, the dc-dc may brown out. Current skyrockets and you let the
smoke out. Unless it has some decent protection. This is a great
argument for a fuse on both the supply and the output side. (different amps)
to quote the poster on the wall at the motor shop....
"Contrary to popular belief, motors run on smoke, the electricity keeps
the smoke in, If you have let the smoke out, bring the motor in for repair"
seems to work for dc-dc converters too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> Maybe make the generator a motor/generator and hybridize the truck that
> starts and stops alot anyway using the battery in the pallet jack??
Hmm... that's a clever idea! Could be a special case solution for a
particular problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
People posted some links.
I'm not sure how we know if something is reliable, but...
on Friday, I stopped at West Marine and got a charger.
They had a few choices, I grabbbed a
"10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *2)" charger.
So this means for my special case, trying to rehabilitate
(to some degree) 22 batteries, I can charge 2 batteries
at a time, slowly....I already did 6.
I wonder if it would make sense to have 7 of these
for charging 13 +1 batteries?
Monitoring might be an issue.
(Also, it came with lugs, not clamps :-(
Thanks
Seth
> http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=212&id
> product=22358
> http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/deltran_shop_charger.pdf
>
> http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?idCategory=211
>
> http://www.ineedparts.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?idCategory=222
>
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--- Begin Message ---
John Norton wrote:
> Say you had 2 identical converters, adjusted to the same output
> voltage. Could you connect the outputs in parallel and get 60A
> available for 12v power?
Yes, in theory. But there are some pesky details.
No two converters will ever have exactly the same output voltage. Even
if you try to set them the same, there will be small differences.
Whichever one has the higher voltage (even by 1 millivolt) will try to
deliver *all* the load current. Worst-case, a 30a converter facing a 60a
load may shut down, blow a fuse, or even fail catastrophically
(depending on its design). Then the voltage drops, and the second supply
faces the full 60a load -- and responds the same way.
So, you want a converter that has some form of load sharing. The crudest
form is to have some output resistance, so that the voltage it delivers
sags under load. For example, 14v at 0a, 13.9v at 10a, 13.8v at 20a,
etc. That way, you can set the two output voltages "about" the same, and
the load current divides "about" equally between them.
This output resistance can be a physical resistor, deliberately
undersized or long wires to add resistance, or a pair of commoning
diodes which have both resistance, and block reverse current from
flowing back into the converter outputs if their inputs are not powered.
The other approach is to use converters that have some form of built-in
electronic load sharing. This can force each converter to handle
precisely half the load, rather than "about" half.
Finally, the converters need to be designed so they gracefully go into
current limit when overloaded, rather than burn up, blow fuses, or shut
down.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Lithium batteries have a strick window of voltage in which you can't go
below(~3.2V risk of damage) or above (risk of damage,fire ~4.2V) and
when you put them in series, you need a battery management system to be
able to see this.
They notoriously don't share in parallel to well, unless you can insure
equal temperature
2150mah is 2.1Ah,but at what rate? lets assume 20hr which is the 50 Ah
orbital rate ( figure 34 ah in that orbital for 1 hr rate ) remembering
it is 12V, that would mean about 75 cells (25 * 3) cells per orbital or
7.3Lbs of cells (not bad!) 25 parallel strings of 94 would require 2350
balanceing modules!!
AC Propulsion's idea was to take 49x4 cells welded in parallel with a
temp sensor buried in the middle and to BMS each of the modules,
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf
don't forget thundersky
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
here is a bms http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm
and my favoite, kokam america
http://www.kokamamerica.com/
here they are in use
http://www.proev.com/
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Hi Jorg,
Yes, NEDRA will be having the NEDRA Nationals later this year!
Roy LeMeur will be leading the effort to organize this event which will
be either at Woodburn or PIR depending on the tracks' scheduling and
availability.
We will let everyone know as soon as we set a date and location.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon May 8, 2006 5:56:21 PM US/Eastern
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: NEDRA Nationals - date chosen yet?
I assume that the NEDRA Nationals will once again be held in Oregon this
year...
Has this been agreed upon yet? If so, is there a known date yet?
jorg
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--- Begin Message ---
Dumb question time again.
I was thinking about the holders for the v28s, and the problem of charging
them, and I was wondering if it would be possible to install the chargers in
the car, do a little rewiring, and use them as battery holders, and maybe
wire the chargers together too?
David C Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"The Bush administration's priorities are
"a little bit different now and veterans aren't a priority,"
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: No V28 Chevy at High Voltage Nationals
All,
Despite our best efforts I received word today that the V28 MG Chevy will
not be available for the High Voltage Nationals.
Though no fault of Milwaukee's John Zick who continues to push to get us
back on the track, the logistics of a large corp. and the previous
obligations for the car were too much. We are doubling our efforts to see
this machine on the track in Hagerstown in June. We were hoping to at
least be there nice, big, and red in the White Zombie's rear view but the
racing season is still young....
Shawn "One Short" Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Worse still is that Li-Ion doesn't like overcharge, at all. If there's
a charge imbalance you have a big problem.
Managing a large Li-Ion string is difficult, even without massive
parallel cells. The normal charging algorithm IIRC is to apply a fixed
voltage and wait for the current to decrease below a threshold. With
more than a few cells the voltage difference between them makes it
difficult to apply the needed fixed voltage.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Lithium batteries have a strick window of voltage in which you can't go
below(~3.2V risk of damage) or above (risk of damage,fire ~4.2V) and
when you put them in series, you need a battery management system to be
able to see this.
They notoriously don't share in parallel to well, unless you can insure
equal temperature
2150mah is 2.1Ah,but at what rate? lets assume 20hr which is the 50 Ah
orbital rate ( figure 34 ah in that orbital for 1 hr rate ) remembering
it is 12V, that would mean about 75 cells (25 * 3) cells per orbital or
7.3Lbs of cells (not bad!) 25 parallel strings of 94 would require 2350
balanceing modules!!
AC Propulsion's idea was to take 49x4 cells welded in parallel with a
temp sensor buried in the middle and to BMS each of the modules,
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf
don't forget thundersky
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
here is a bms http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm
and my favoite, kokam america
http://www.kokamamerica.com/
here they are in use
http://www.proev.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I would love to use Lithium cells - the best appear to be the E-Molis,
a 144V 60AH pack would cost about US$8,500 - not cheap but they offer a big
advantage and I would more than likely pony up that money - the cells are 3Ah
and 10C rated (proven repeatedly in real life in RC apps ) hence, its a 600 amp
pack that can burst to 15C for 5 seconds (900 amps). The raw cells would weigh
78kg (170 lbs).
The problem - balancing 780 individual cells.
Currently trying to figure out how I'm going to balance 35 of them for a
e-scooter 7S5P so any thoughts on that would be very welcome!
Quoting Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Worse still is that Li-Ion doesn't like overcharge, at all. If there's
> a charge imbalance you have a big problem.
>
> Managing a large Li-Ion string is difficult, even without massive
> parallel cells. The normal charging algorithm IIRC is to apply a fixed
> voltage and wait for the current to decrease below a threshold. With
> more than a few cells the voltage difference between them makes it
> difficult to apply the needed fixed voltage.
>
> Danny
>
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> >Lithium batteries have a strick window of voltage in which you can't go
> >below(~3.2V risk of damage) or above (risk of damage,fire ~4.2V) and
> >when you put them in series, you need a battery management system to be
> >able to see this.
> >
> >They notoriously don't share in parallel to well, unless you can insure
> >equal temperature
> >
> >2150mah is 2.1Ah,but at what rate? lets assume 20hr which is the 50 Ah
> >orbital rate ( figure 34 ah in that orbital for 1 hr rate ) remembering
> >it is 12V, that would mean about 75 cells (25 * 3) cells per orbital or
> >7.3Lbs of cells (not bad!) 25 parallel strings of 94 would require 2350
> >balanceing modules!!
> >
> >AC Propulsion's idea was to take 49x4 cells welded in parallel with a
> >temp sensor buried in the middle and to BMS each of the modules,
> >http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf
> >
> >don't forget thundersky
> >http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
> >
> >here is a bms http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm
> >
> >and my favoite, kokam america
> >http://www.kokamamerica.com/
> >here they are in use
> >http://www.proev.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
35 of which cell? I have some ideas.
Here's my thoughts:
1. The string has a well regulated DC constant current drive on the
whole string.
2. There's a shunt reg on each battery with an adjustable voltage.
3. There's a current meter on the shunt leg. (String current) -
(cell's shunt reg current)= (cell current). If the shunt is conducting,
then it'll be far easier to read the lower current on that bypass shunt
leg than read each cell current through the main high current power
connections. Too much hardware and too much insertion loss.
4. We can realize the specified charging scheme by supplying current
until all the batteries reach the specified charging voltage. Some
batteries may have their shunt regs activated at this point.
5. For each cell, we read the current in the bypass leg and calculate
the cell current. When it has fallen below the specified level, thus
indicating full charge, we adjust the shunt voltage lower so it bypasses
all the current and cell voltage falls to a point where it won't be
charging or discharging. Once all cells are in this state the charger
can shut off.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Currently trying to figure out how I'm going to balance 35 of them for a
e-scooter 7S5P so any thoughts on that would be very welcome!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like it's in decent shape, even though the
seller is a bit clueless: I count 26 batteries (312V)
which are more than likely bad at this moment and no
way it is ever going to do 80 MPH (redline is 72) or
70 miles per charge on 70 Ah of batteries.
But for the price it is a very interesting deal,
including built-in Emeter and 3 chargers, two of
which Magnechargers!
Beats me why someone would shave doorhandles on a truck,
maybe on a racing 2-seater it would make a difference,
but on a truck?
What's next? Carbon-fiber hood?
Kind of putting deep dish rims on your garden tractor
or rust-bucket-daily-driver-beater, but I digress.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ4638014037QQrdZ1
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I am not sure that I understand which problem that you are
trying to solve here.
Please explain the problem in more detail (as the current
situation seems to work to satisfaction) and describe what
you want to add/change, how much that would cost and what
you try to save by adding/changing this function.
This may help you to judge if the solution has indeed a
problem that someone is trying to get rid of as well and
is willing to pay for.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 9:56 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
I was talking to the folks delivering beer to a restaurant this am.
Pallets of kegs plus pallets of cases.
They were using a 24V hand pallet, very much like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yale-Self-Propelled-Pallet-Jack-6000-lb-Forklift_W0QQite
mZ7616028341QQcategoryZ97185QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or tinyURL here:
http://tinyurl.com/p4z38
The operators didn't know which size floodie they were using, but the
choices per the nameplate said options are 300lb or 500lb batt.
(I think it was)
Point is, they rely on a dial of "idiot lights" to gauge remaining
charge, and of course it depends on how much they use it in the day as
to the state of charge at the end of the day...
Commonly the battery (per lights) is 1/2 empty by the end of the day,
then is plugged in back at the warehouse at night.
So here's the plan:
Develop and market a charger that runs off the diseasal truck engine,
and plug the battery into the truck between stops? The hand pallet
stays at the back of the cargo box of the truck while on the road, so
this would be a rather long cable run perhaps, but the real question
might be, given the cost to install, how much would such a setup extend
the life of the pallet truck battery, if it can be plugged in in the
way, between stops, to reduce the average daily discharge to perhaps
80% rather than 50%?
If the idea makes for a practical product, then I hope some of the
forklift-friendly EV folk here can make some money off the idea.
Thanks all
Lock
Toronto
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
The connection to pack wiring can occur anywhere _after_ the
contactor(s) so the battery pack is not drawn down while the
car is parked for a few days.
(alternatively if the DC/DC has a really low standby current
and has a "standby" input control, you could wire it before
the contactor(s) but certainly after the fuse/breaker and
preferably after current measuring shunt.
The main motor current does not go through the DC/DC wiring,
ou attach the DC/DC (input) wiring to the main current
carrying cables, it should add no more than a few amps.
Check the output side of the DC/DC: does it have more than
just two DC out contacts?
Does the manual say anything about current or load sharing?
How is the overload protection? is it current limited and
temperature protected or will it fail when overloaded?
If any of the sharing or limiting features are present
then you have a good chance to make this work, alternatively
Lee already suggested to use two slightly undersized or
long wires on each output to hook them up to your battery
and make the output "soft" so they will be forced to share load.
I would suggest to add a 30A fuse in each connection wire to
help protect the DC/DC and avoid you start a fire.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Norton
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 9:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DC-DC converters
On Mon, 8 May 2006 5:42, Cor van de Water wrote:
> John,
>
> Yes, that one should work IF you can crank the output
> voltage up to your battery voltage (13.8 .. 14.5V)
>
It is adjustable, so far so good.
> Doubling may work, depending how close they are in output
> voltage and current sharing capabilities.
>
Here is where we learn that at least one of the two required semesters
of EE for this mechanical engineer was wasted.
Say you had 2 identical converters, adjusted to the same output voltage,
could you take the outputs in parallel and get 60A available for 12v
power?
>
> And yes - you better wire all loads across the entire pack
> or you will create unbalances in the pack.
I have looked at a diagram someone had posted of their EV wiring, and it
just showed the DC-DC converter wired across the pack voltage on the
same path as the controller, but (back to that wasted semester) is that
okay with 100's of amps flowing through the wire? Is there a shunt or
something else in the configuration?
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
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