EV Digest 5469
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT: Cartoon, very funny
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) More EVs on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: More EVs on Ebay
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Prius to get 113mpg
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Hybrid Technologies LiX-75, Lithium based $125,000 supercar,
200mph
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Prius PHEV trip data!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I needed to share this. Sorry if it's 'off topic'
mm.
http://www.scrantontimestribune.com/cartoons/0507toon.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This first cell that we are manufacturing is a cylindrical 26650
form factor cell (26 mm diam, 65 mm long) which has a basic
specification of 3.3V nominal (charges to 3.6V max) and 2.3 Ah rated
capacity. It weighs 70 grams. This cell would have to be put in a
series-parallel configuration with battery management system (BMS) to
achieve the required application specifications. This technology is
based on a Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry which is inherently safe
and incapable of combusting. The technology is uniquely capable of
discharging up to 30C rates continuous and up to 100C rates on a pulse
basis (5 seconds). We believe that this unique combination of
attributes and capabilities will be advantageous in your marketplace.
>
100 in series is 330V nom (360V max) and 8 in parallel is 18.4Ah, so
800 of these equals 6kWh from 56kg of cells (before hardware and BMS),
but what is really impressive is the possibility of 600kW for 5sec...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Assuming that Ray Wong's post is correct (which you say it *is*) -- and
there's no reason to doubt that since he reprints an email from A123 to
himself quoting their cell's specs (at 3.3V nominal and 2.3 Ah rated
capacity) -- then your math is a bit off in what you told Electrifying
Times, which must be incorrect. Here is how Electrifying Times quoted you:
"The battery pack has a total of 800 A123 Systems Li-Ion cells.
They are configured to deliver 340 volts at up to 1300 amps.
It weighs just under 150 pounds and will deliver about 350 HP to the
motorcycle drive package. These are very high-power cells that hold plenty
of energy as well. This pack holds about 9 kW-hrs of energy!"
There would appear to be two errors. First of all, your nominal pack
voltage is presumably 330V, not 340V. (100 x 3.3V = 330V, not 340V.)
Second, your stored energy onboard the pack is 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
[330V x (8 x 2.3Ah) = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.]
Regardless of what the specific series-parallel configuration of the cells
is to make up the pack, you've got 800 cells, or at least that's what you
told Electrifying Times.
800 x 3.3V (nominal) x 2.3Ah = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
As I said, there's some bad math somewhere in your calculations.
Other than that, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'd be interested in
knowing a little bit more about your BMS and how you handle the paralleling
of cells, particularly on the charging side, also what charger and charge
profile you're using. But I realize that you and your crew are getting
ready for a big race this coming weekend and don't have time to answer those
types of questions right now. So hopefully maybe when you guys get back
from Joliet (with a new world record!), you might have some time to address
those type of questions from inquiring minds.
Good luck at High Voltage Nationals!
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Ray Wong got the specs right, so read his post.
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS system and Derek Barger helped to build it.
As i said earlier, we managed to get these big discharge numbers on the
bench, but we have yet to actually draw 1300 amps from the assembled pack.
In theory, we should be able to, but we have yet to actually attempt it.
Bill Dube'
At 05:53 PM 5/10/2006, Charles Whalen wrote:
A123's website is sorely lacking in details. No specs at all on any
cells, at least not that I could find. Hard to tell what they're selling,
if anything. But taking that ET article on the new A123-powered
version of KillaCycle and combining that with some of the scant
hints on A123's website, one can sort of put the pieces of the
puzzle together as follows:
It looks like A123's cells are probably 3.4V nominal with a capacity of
3.3Ah. It would seem that Dube has put 8 of these cells in parallel for
26.4Ah and then put 100 of those 3.4V, 26.4Ah blocks in series to make a
340V, 26.4Ah pack. A 1300A peak discharge current for the pack would be a
50C pulse rate. Just under 150 pounds for the pack gives a specific
energy of 132Wh/kg, which is pretty good for the pack (meaning of course
that the specific energy for the cell is even higher, given all the extra
packaging weight required to assemble a pack).
It would be interesting to know whose BMS Dube is using, or whether he
developed it himself, some details on that BMS and how he handles the
challenges of paralleling, especially when charging the pack, what charger
he is using and the charge profile, etc., etc. But I guess Dube is
probably on the road right now enroute to Joliet and thus can't fill us in
on further details.
It would also be interesting to know whether A123 has any plans to develop
higher capacity cells (greater than 3.3Ah) so that one doesn't have to
custom assemble thousands of cells to make a pack for a car. 800 cells is
bad enough for a motorcycle, but a car would require thousands of them,
like what AC Propulsion does with its packs of 6,800 Li-Co-O2 (volatile
and highly combustible) 18650 laptop cells that it custom assembles for
customers. I doubt A123 will be a serious player in any potential BEV
market until they figure out how to engineer and develop a 100-200Ah cell,
which is not an insignificant challenge.
Anyway, very interesting, especially about the progress that A123 has made
in addressing the vexing calendar-life/capacity-fade problem, which is the
dirty little secret and Achilles heel of lithium batteries, a very
sensitive issue that virtually no other lithium battery manufacturer is
willing to discuss in public or even acknowledge.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Message 4 From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT) Subject: A123 Systems sponsored
KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of cute.
And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault and
that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and shiny
I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I live in Glendale I've contacted the seller in hopes of getting to go
look at it. He's supposed to be calling me to arrange a time to go look at it.
Is there anything in particular I should look for?
Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Cor van de Water wrote:
> Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
> Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of cute.
And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault and
that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and shiny
I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
Chris
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min
with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:55 PM +0000 5/10/06, Dana Havranek wrote:
Mike:
I also agree.
If you really need to weld a bracket on the case, you need to get
some good penetration. That usually means a big stick welder.
But there is a time to weld and a time not to weld.
This may be a time not to weld.
Maybe, Maybe not.
Some of you may remember Ed Randberg, the father of EV drag racing,
master welder and an amazing innovator. He taught us not to worry
about welding to motor cases, Just MIG or stick 1" at a time with a
wet rag for cooling between sections. The inside of that case never
gets anywhere near the critical insulation temperature.
About 15 years ago I built a Suzuki Samurai conversion with the help
of some High School shop students on Lopez Island. The motor mounts
we made of 1/4" thick 4" wide angle that was cut and ground to fit
the motor and match up with the stock rubber mounts. These were
welded to the 8" motor casing. It still is the cleanest, simplest
installation I can imagine. In a situation where the original mounts
are next to the case it's the only way I would do it.
I think we even pulled it off with a 120V MIG and well beveled
joints. I think that's all I had at the time, but it's possible we
dug out a stick welder for that part. Still I'm pretty sure I
remember putting some wide fillets on the joint to make up for the
shallow penetration of the Mig. We did weld both legs of the angle to
the case, so with all that leverage not a lot of strength is required
per area.
Sometimes the simple way is the best. Beware of those clamps, they
often slip. My later S-10 truck had to change motors often for
testing, so welding was not a option, but the clamps used to slip and
bend a lot.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ask for a receipt for the batterys. That box looks like it was
seriously messed with. I see underhood wiring that's not stock either.
Needs tires. Lots of options though.
I wonder what he means by "the doors were masked square"?
I know I've seen this truck for sale somewhere before.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Since I live in Glendale I've contacted the seller in hopes of
getting to go look at it. He's supposed to be calling me to arrange a
time to go look at it. Is there anything in particular I should look for?
>
> Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
>
> Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
>
> > Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> > than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> > messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
>
> Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
> example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of cute.
> And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
>
> I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault and
> that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and shiny
> I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
> little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
>
> And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
> truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The score is now 3 Rangers and 3 S-10,
with the price leader in the Ranger camp
(27,000 BuyItNow) for the NiMH pack.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
The "Bazooka's" are a way of blocking the batteries
that I have seen before as well - do not immediately
know where.
Te door masking is visible in the photos: whiter than original
rectangles around the handles, where they were "filled"
after being "shaved" and consequently re-opened.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:05 PM
To: Ricky Suiter
Subject: Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
Ask for a receipt for the batterys. That box looks like it was
seriously messed with. I see underhood wiring that's not stock either.
Needs tires. Lots of options though.
I wonder what he means by "the doors were masked square"?
I know I've seen this truck for sale somewhere before.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Since I live in Glendale I've contacted the seller in hopes of
getting to go look at it. He's supposed to be calling me to arrange a
time to go look at it. Is there anything in particular I should look for?
>
> Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
>
> Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
>
> > Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> > than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> > messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
>
> Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
> example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of cute.
> And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
>
> I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault and
> that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and shiny
> I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
> little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
>
> And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
> truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it appears I was off on the capacity. You are correct it is 6
kw-hrs. Keep in mind that as long as we have some left over at the
end of the track, capacity is not really much interest. :-) I should
have been more careful in my "back of the envelope" calculation of
capacity, however.
You can charge these cells to anywhere from 3.3 to 3.6 volts. 3.4
volts (or a touch more) seems to be the best spot for drag racing, at
least from what I learned from bench testing the cells.
Paralleling cells is no big deal. You just tab them together.
Since the charge takes so little time, we manually charge with a
giant Variac. I watch the ammeter and the voltmeter and the blinking
lights on the BMS. I turn the Variac handle as required.
Li-Ion cells are pretty simple to charge individually. You charge at
constant current until you hit the final voltage, then charge at
constant voltage until the current tapers off. You do the same thing
to a pack, but you must hold each cell to the final voltage with the BMS.
The A123 folks have amazing quality control. Every one of the cells
was within +/- 0.01 Volt of each other, even after a few weeks.
Bill Dube'
At 10:30 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
Bill,
Assuming that Ray Wong's post is correct (which you say it *is*) -- and
there's no reason to doubt that since he reprints an email from A123 to
himself quoting their cell's specs (at 3.3V nominal and 2.3 Ah rated
capacity) -- then your math is a bit off in what you told Electrifying
Times, which must be incorrect. Here is how Electrifying Times quoted you:
"The battery pack has a total of 800 A123 Systems Li-Ion cells.
They are configured to deliver 340 volts at up to 1300 amps.
It weighs just under 150 pounds and will deliver about 350 HP to the
motorcycle drive package. These are very high-power cells that hold plenty
of energy as well. This pack holds about 9 kW-hrs of energy!"
There would appear to be two errors. First of all, your nominal pack
voltage is presumably 330V, not 340V. (100 x 3.3V = 330V, not 340V.)
Second, your stored energy onboard the pack is 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
[330V x (8 x 2.3Ah) = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.]
Regardless of what the specific series-parallel configuration of the cells
is to make up the pack, you've got 800 cells, or at least that's what you
told Electrifying Times.
800 x 3.3V (nominal) x 2.3Ah = 6 kWh, not 9 kWh.
As I said, there's some bad math somewhere in your calculations.
Other than that, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'd be interested in
knowing a little bit more about your BMS and how you handle the paralleling
of cells, particularly on the charging side, also what charger and charge
profile you're using. But I realize that you and your crew are getting
ready for a big race this coming weekend and don't have time to answer those
types of questions right now. So hopefully maybe when you guys get back
from Joliet (with a new world record!), you might have some time to address
those type of questions from inquiring minds.
Good luck at High Voltage Nationals!
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Ray Wong got the specs right, so read his post.
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS system and Derek Barger helped to build it.
As i said earlier, we managed to get these big discharge numbers on the
bench, but we have yet to actually draw 1300 amps from the assembled pack.
In theory, we should be able to, but we have yet to actually attempt it.
Bill Dube'
At 05:53 PM 5/10/2006, Charles Whalen wrote:
A123's website is sorely lacking in details. No specs at all on any
cells, at least not that I could find. Hard to tell what they're selling,
if anything. But taking that ET article on the new A123-powered
version of KillaCycle and combining that with some of the scant
hints on A123's website, one can sort of put the pieces of the
puzzle together as follows:
It looks like A123's cells are probably 3.4V nominal with a capacity of
3.3Ah. It would seem that Dube has put 8 of these cells in parallel for
26.4Ah and then put 100 of those 3.4V, 26.4Ah blocks in series to make a
340V, 26.4Ah pack. A 1300A peak discharge current for the pack would be a
50C pulse rate. Just under 150 pounds for the pack gives a specific
energy of 132Wh/kg, which is pretty good for the pack (meaning of course
that the specific energy for the cell is even higher, given all the extra
packaging weight required to assemble a pack).
It would be interesting to know whose BMS Dube is using, or whether he
developed it himself, some details on that BMS and how he handles the
challenges of paralleling, especially when charging the pack, what charger
he is using and the charge profile, etc., etc. But I guess Dube is
probably on the road right now enroute to Joliet and thus can't fill us in
on further details.
It would also be interesting to know whether A123 has any plans to develop
higher capacity cells (greater than 3.3Ah) so that one doesn't have to
custom assemble thousands of cells to make a pack for a car. 800 cells is
bad enough for a motorcycle, but a car would require thousands of them,
like what AC Propulsion does with its packs of 6,800 Li-Co-O2 (volatile
and highly combustible) 18650 laptop cells that it custom assembles for
customers. I doubt A123 will be a serious player in any potential BEV
market until they figure out how to engineer and develop a 100-200Ah cell,
which is not an insignificant challenge.
Anyway, very interesting, especially about the progress that A123 has made
in addressing the vexing calendar-life/capacity-fade problem, which is the
dirty little secret and Achilles heel of lithium batteries, a very
sensitive issue that virtually no other lithium battery manufacturer is
willing to discuss in public or even acknowledge.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Message 4 From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT) Subject: A123 Systems sponsored
KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen that truck before with the sewer pipe for spacers. Great idea.
So I wonder if the door handle area was welded and that's why it was
repainted? Shaving looks better than that usually.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> The "Bazooka's" are a way of blocking the batteries
> that I have seen before as well - do not immediately
> know where.
>
> Te door masking is visible in the photos: whiter than original
> rectangles around the handles, where they were "filled"
> after being "shaved" and consequently re-opened.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:05 PM
> To: Ricky Suiter
> Subject: Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
>
>
> Ask for a receipt for the batterys. That box looks like it was
> seriously messed with. I see underhood wiring that's not stock either.
> Needs tires. Lots of options though.
>
> I wonder what he means by "the doors were masked square"?
>
> I know I've seen this truck for sale somewhere before.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > Since I live in Glendale I've contacted the seller in hopes of
> getting to go look at it. He's supposed to be calling me to arrange a
> time to go look at it. Is there anything in particular I should look
for?
> >
> > Christopher Zach <czach@> wrote: Cor van de Water wrote:
> > > Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
> >
> > Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
> >
> > > Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> > > than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> > > messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
> >
> > Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
> > example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of
cute.
> > And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
> >
> > I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault
and
> > that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and
shiny
> > I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
> > little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
> >
> > And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
> > truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
> just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also a Solectria force and a Prizm. I bet the battery companies are
having a nice day.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The score is now 3 Rangers and 3 S-10,
> with the price leader in the Ranger camp
> (27,000 BuyItNow) for the NiMH pack.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wirele****etworks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Porsche 914 with 12 group 31 12volt batteries(144volt pack). I use
3 dual pro SE 4 bank chargers. It is 4 isolated 10 amp chargers in one case.
The setup pulls about 1300watts from an 110volt outlet when first plugged
in. When the charging is complete the system draws 90watts while floating.
At one point I broke my EV pretty good and had to leave it on the charger
for 3 months before I got the car on the road again. The batteries were
taken care of just fine. Each charger has LEDs that show the charge level. I
can tell pretty quickly which batteries are slow to come up.
The only thing that has concerned me about my setup is if for some reason I
get an open in my pack. I could get an voltage potential up 150volts+ trying
to go though one of the chargers. I have been meaning to contact the maker
of the charger to find out what is the highest voltage the charger could see
on any one charger. With a high enough volt one could let the magic smoke
out that makes it work.
http://www.dualpro.com/new/se4.html
TED,
Olympia, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
Why not using one powerful and reliable individual charger with multiple
relais connection to each batterie...seems familiar design...
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
David Ankers wrote:
> Instead of regulators for each battery in an EV, why not use individual
> chargers?
It's a good idea, and does work well if done properly. The main
challenge is reliability. 10 chargers have 10 times the parts, and so
1/10th the reliability.
A typical consumer-grade charger (like a $50 12v 15amp charger) is only
built to be used a few times a year. It would last 10 years that way.
But if you tried using 10 of them every day, you could have one fail
every few months.
The real problem comes when you drive off in the morning not knowing
that one of your batteries didn't get charged. You'll destroy a battery
before youy get to work!
To make multiple chargers work, you need to a) use exceptionally
reliable chargers, and b) provide some means to detect (and hopefully
correct for) any failures BEFORE they destroy a battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alright, we'll see.... if he calls me back. I wounder if the extra wires
mentioned are for an alarm system and whatever was associated with the required
door popers for the shaved handles. Anyone have a good picture of what a stock
US Electricar S-10 should look like so I can get a better idea of what it
should look like?
Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have seen that truck before with
the sewer pipe for spacers. Great idea.
So I wonder if the door handle area was welded and that's why it was
repainted? Shaving looks better than that usually.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> The "Bazooka's" are a way of blocking the batteries
> that I have seen before as well - do not immediately
> know where.
>
> Te door masking is visible in the photos: whiter than original
> rectangles around the handles, where they were "filled"
> after being "shaved" and consequently re-opened.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:05 PM
> To: Ricky Suiter
> Subject: Re: US Electricar on Ebay, in Glendale, AZ.
>
>
> Ask for a receipt for the batterys. That box looks like it was
> seriously messed with. I see underhood wiring that's not stock either.
> Needs tires. Lots of options though.
>
> I wonder what he means by "the doors were masked square"?
>
> I know I've seen this truck for sale somewhere before.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter wrote:
> >
> > Since I live in Glendale I've contacted the seller in hopes of
> getting to go look at it. He's supposed to be calling me to arrange a
> time to go look at it. Is there anything in particular I should look
for?
> >
> > Christopher Zach wrote: Cor van de Water wrote:
> > > Told you the owner is clueless ;-)
> >
> > Eh, the battery install doesn't look to be that bad.
> >
> > > Serious - I doubt that this truck will sell for more
> > > than $5000 (one dollar per pound) as the owners have
> > > messed it up a bit too badly for a clean sale.
> >
> > Oh I don't know about that, I've seen a lot worse (like mine for
> > example) and that battery mounting thing with bazookas is kind of
cute.
> > And I want that CC200 book...... Mmmm....
> >
> > I will bet dollars to donuts thought that it is not a ground fault
and
> > that the problem is in the Dolphin. For something interesting and
shiny
> > I'd take a look at it; these things seem to blow rectifiers and other
> > little parts from time to time. Easy to fix, pain to program.
> >
> > And HOLY COW, IT HAS AIR CONDITIONING! Mmmm..... US_Electricar AC is
> > truly a nice thing to have. Cool cool cool.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for
> just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
> >
>
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I bought a 2006 about Jan 1st and I love it I am getting 51 mpg avg and
it was a pkg 3 car I pd 22,900 for it. mike Y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Gardner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Prius to get 113mpg
> Unfortunatly I have not gotten around to building my one EV
> conversion. I don't have the time, resources, man power, or
> sufficient knowledge to do so. So I am going to dive in an purchase a
> hybrid. I am considering purchasing a 2006 Toyota Prius, and I am
> wondering if anyone here as any advice for me. Maybe the Prius is not
> the best way to go, but I don't know. Any advice would be appreciated
> and helpful links to articles, personal experiences, or any other
> relevant knowledge would be useful.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK - info is starting to flow,
they issued some press info:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/media.php
Note also that they are actually making EVs:
"Hybrid Technologies is currently producing
lithium PT Cruisers to service as taxi units
for Paratransit, a large, California-based
transportation non-profit."
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Hybrid Technologies LiX-75, Lithium based $125,000
supercar, 200mph
I do know about some projects Hybrid tech put together, this car
is one of them. Sorry, can't tell more (they are my customer) but
they may surprise you in future - get ready.
Victor
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> Anyone seen this thing yet?
>
> per http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C7322/
>
> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com Hybrid Technologies LiX-75 Lithium
> based $125,000 supercar, 200mph, 3 second 0-60.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/10/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The fellows that I know who have worked on hacking the Prius system
said that it was a BMS too. But so far what they have said makes it
look like a system level BMS, not a module to module BMS.
The Insight has a voltage and temperature sense for every module of 12
(IIRC) cells.
This is a BMS, in that it manages the battery: prevents overcharge,
overdischarge and overtemperature on what they consider to be a fine
enough level for this chemistry at this power level.
Now that I have 11 Prius Packs, I'll tear down a battery ECU and see
if there are any circuits that make it look like a module to module
level BMS. After going thru the clamper drill
The what? :)
By the way, any good sets of cells going spare? I'd like a set for my
Insight once they wear out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/06, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The only thing that has concerned me about my setup is if for some reason I
get an open in my pack. I could get an voltage potential up 150volts+ trying
to go though one of the chargers. I have been meaning to contact the maker
of the charger to find out what is the highest voltage the charger could see
on any one charger. With a high enough volt one could let the magic smoke
out that makes it work.
If you get an open circuit cell while driving, you will have a reverse
polarity potential across that charger. The charger should be
protected against reverse polarity: sometimes just a diode across the
output and a fuse in series. If it doesn't have this protection (or
it's not sufficient to protect against the higher voltage and greater
fault energy), you could add it externally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't mean to imply that there was no battery management
system (BMS) in the Hybrids, just that the module wise tap
portion of their systems are not "active". That is to say
they are "only" used to monitor the health of the modules
which make up the whole pack. As far as I know the taps
are not used to actively regulate nor balance the modules.
Rather they are just used for early indication of faults.
Nearly all of the hybrid packs are comprised of various
numbers of 6 cell modules, though some of the vehicles
use 5 cell (?Escape?) or 8 cell (HH/RX440h) modules.
I think most of the BMS system tap pairs of modules, so
there should be a total of ( # of module / 2 ) + 1 tap
wires. It also appears that the BMS/Hybrid systems
uses the outer most taps to measure total pack voltage,
at least the Prius gets it's pack voltage this way.
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Battery_Specs
Insight = 144v, 120 cells, 20 modules, 11 taps
PriusG0 = 288v, 240 cells, 40 modules, 21 taps
PriusG1 = 274v, 228 cells, 38 modules, 20 taps
PriusG2 = 202v, 168 cells, 28 modules, 15 taps (I just counted em')
HH/RX400h 288v, 240 cells, 30 8 cell modules, ?16 taps?
Anyone got spec references for the vehicles that I didn't
list? Escape, Mariner, Civic, Accord, Camry, LS600h, etc?
L8r
Ryan
Evan Tuer wrote:
> On 5/10/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The fellows that I know who have worked on hacking the Prius system
>> said that it was a BMS too. But so far what they have said makes it
>> look like a system level BMS, not a module to module BMS.
>
> The Insight has a voltage and temperature sense for every module of 12
> (IIRC) cells.
> This is a BMS, in that it manages the battery: prevents overcharge,
> overdischarge and overtemperature on what they consider to be a fine
> enough level for this chemistry at this power level.
>
>> Now that I have 11 Prius Packs, I'll tear down a battery ECU and see
>> if there are any circuits that make it look like a module to module
>> level BMS. After going thru the clamper drill
>
> The what? :)
>
> By the way, any good sets of cells going spare? I'd like a set for my
> Insight once they wear out.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/06, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that there was no battery management
system (BMS) in the Hybrids, just that the module wise tap
portion of their systems are not "active". That is to say
they are "only" used to monitor the health of the modules
which make up the whole pack. As far as I know the taps
are not used to actively regulate nor balance the modules.
Yes, agreed. The hybrids don't care so much about getting the pack
completely full, very fast, so an occasional mild overcharge (I
assume) is enough to keep the cells in balance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I went for my first "real" PHEV trip in the PFC enhanced Prius
tonight, needed to get some groceries and start collecting some data.
The PFC is sitting in the rear passenger seat where I can reach back
and throttle it back should the CCL issue rear it's ugly head.
So I started the trip with the 19 battery PbA pack sitting at 248v.
Knowing that I'd be going more than the 34mph EV-Only mode speed
limit I went ahead and let the ICE run through it's emissions warmup
cycle, and I've also got some hills which require ICE power to climb.
After 6.3 miles I had arrived at the store with 99.9mpg on the dash,
which I though was a shame since I couldn't tell how far into the
100's it had gone. Ran into the CCL once on the way there so I
reached back and turned the current down on the PFC, the CCL
recovered in short order so I kicked the PFC back to full power.
The Prius transitioned from EV-Mode to Stealth mode at 34mph
without skipping a beat and I was able to cruse up to 41mph in
silky smooth silence nearly the entire time after the warmup.
On the way back I was climbing more and pulling more Amps so
the SOC didn't stay as high and once it dropped to 45% the ICE
would kick in even though the Hybrid Pack voltage was still
hovering around 220v which is well above the 180v lower limit.
Upon arriving back at home with a total of 12.6 and having run
the ICE more on the return trip the mileage had dropped back down
to 89.8mpg which is actually helpful for doing some calculations,
and the PbA pack was down to 216v. After recharging the Delta-Q
had put 0.88 kWh back into the pack as measured from the outlet.
So, not bad considering we've just started and haven't implemented the
automation to keep the SOC higher and have yet to crank up the PFC.
12.6 miles / 89.8mpg is 0.14 gallons (4.7 kWh @33.6kWh/gal)
(4.7kWh * 30% is 1.41kWh) + (0.88kWh * 90% = 0.80kWh) = 2.21kWh
Roughly 5.7 miles/kWh or 0.175 kWh/mile
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
