EV Digest 5487
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Vectrix
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC vs. DC
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Motor Torque Testing and 1st 1000 miles with new low voltage (96v) AC
System.
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Back from the (almost) High Voltage Nationals
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Whoops. Left the charger on
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Back from the (almost) High Voltage Nationals
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Brushless turnkey system available
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC vs. DC
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC vs. DC
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Back from the (almost) High Voltage Nationals
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: AC vs. DC
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Brushless turnkey system available
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Vectrix
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) re:be careful what you ask for...
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Be careful what you wish for....
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Dump Charge Current
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC vs. DC
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Brushless turnkey system available
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC vs. DC
by "Michael Neverdosky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motor Torque Testing and 1st 1000 miles with new low voltage (96v) AC
System.
by Steve O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) More Prius PHEV trip data!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
> Offtopic: If I recall, the Mini is about $14K in the UK...
> $25K here. That little BMW micro 2 seater was supposed to
> be around $12K. If I recall, it's about $14K in Canada and
> $23-30K in the US, in different versions of trim.
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid ;^>
According to <http://www.mini.ca>, your basic Mini starts at about
CAD$24k and tops out at nearly CDN$37k for a convertible Mini Cooper S.
Once you factor in the exchange, Canadian Mini prices, at least, are
pretty much in line with US prices.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed Chet ... I wasn't forgetting the other required amenities
(batteries, tires, etc) ... merely trying to narrow down my focus. Once
I've decided on the system then I'll chuck-down (as my thesis adviser
use to beguile me) on the exact manufacture, model, etc. Regen would be
a nice feature given the mountains of western North Carolina where I
will be driving ... with respect to maintenance, I don't mind work in
the least. In fact, by my very nature it's almost a requirement so that
as an enduser I feel useful. This isn't to say I want something that
breaks down on me ... I'm still a student (older, but none the less
still a student) and like most can not afford unscheduled repairs.
For anyone wanting some good battery reading:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19940006456_1994006456.pdf
Chet Fields wrote:
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thank you for your reply ... on with DC then! Until an AC system can
compete more closely DC is the most practical decision for me.
Ok, so you are going to save a few thousand dollars and lose a little
efficiency, Regen and less maintenance.
Li Ion seems the way to go if it lives up to its
promises ... here again price/quality will dictate my final decision.
But you are going to spends 10s of thousands more for the batteries and BMS
over the lifetime of the vehicle. (At least at current prices)
It sounds like a good motor/controller combination is the key to the
materials of a successful project.
And Battery choice, and donor vehicle, and tires, and purpose of the vehicle
and ...
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--- Begin Message ---
Just a quick update on my first 1000 miles with the new AC regen drive
system. Background details at www.solarvan.co.uk.
The Zapi AC3 Regen system took a bit of getting used to, as it has very
close speed/throttle control, it's a bit like permanent cruise control!
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/ac3manual.pdf
You accelerate to a choosen speed, and then it holds the vehicle very
accurately (within about 2mph) of that speed, consuming more current uphill
or regenerating going downhill. It does not allow coasting or over
speeding downhill unless you press the throttle further down, which is a
minor disadvantage.
That said I am very pleased, range is comparable with the DC system about 75
miles. (I have two less TS 200ah cells, now 28 v 30 in old DC system). My
vehicle uses 250wh per mile.
The biggest improvement is torque, acceleration and hill climbing ability.
I am a great advocate of not having a gearbox (I have never had one), and I
feel totally vindicated with this decision using the new AC drive.
With DC the vehicle would struggle to hill start on very steep hills, and
could overheat on long hills. Not so with AC.
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/adck914003.zip
The 12kw 96v "Best" Motor produces an amazing stump pulling 317nm or
233ft/lb of torque at 2hz using the Zapi AC3 Controller.
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/bestmotor.zip
I have deliberately driven it to all the steepest hills within range, and it
is not troubled at all! Some are 25% grade or 1 in 4. I need to find
something steeper. It will basically go up any hill now at whatever speed
you batteries can provide current for! If you try to go up at high speed,
current rises rapidly as the motor ramps up to the peak 450A trying to
maintain speed. I try not to hammer my batteries like this by adopting a
sort of crawler gear mentality.
When I approach a really steep hill, say 25% grade. I slow down to <15mph
like a large truck changing down to crawler gear. I go up at this speed and
current is very low <100A, much more reasonable. Everthing stays cooler and
is less stressed. It just needed a different mind set. The air cooled motor
has never been above 50C even in very warm weather after climbing some
notorious local hills.
Going down the same hill at a safe speed produces a strong regen current of
75-100A for it's duration. No need to use the brakes at all. I love watching
the amp meter going +!
With more torque acceleration is much improved. Top speed can be
adjusted/limited with controller.
So I recommend this low voltage AC system for a local neighbourhood EV,
especially if you have lots of stop start town driving. I'm also confident
to recommend Thundersky Lithium Ion cells after 3 years with them. I would
never go back to pb again!
Regards
Peter Perkins.
Now were did I put the money for those super capacitors!
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'm back home from the almost race at Rt 66 Raceway.
Of course, we were disappointed not to race, but we made the best of
it. We really enjoyed talking shop with the other hard-core EV drag racers.
We got a great write-up in the Chicago Herald, even though
we didn't run.
<http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/4_2_jo13_electric_s2.asp>http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/4_2_jo13_electric_s2.asp
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/4_2_jo13_electric_s1.asp
Electrifying Times also ran a few pictures from the test session on the 26th:
<http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
We ran 9.024 @ 139 MPH at the test session. The bike was set at a
modest power setting for these test runs. It should go even faster
when we turn it up to maximum HP.
We are going to take the bike to Bandimere in the coming
weeks. We haven't pinned an exact date down, but we will keep you posted.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tonight, after charging the Prizm with the Magnecharger I figured I'd
plug in the Dolphin to 110 volts and let it equalize a bit with the regs
in place. The Dolphin is currently programmed to charge at 2a up to 380
volts.
Forgot about it and came back 3 hours later. Interestingly enough, the
car was reading 367 volts with a charge rate of 2amps. If the regs were
working at full steam, they would be dissipating 1.2 amps (2 strings),
leaving .8a to go somewhere...
Out of curiousity, where was that .8a going? .4a to each string? Into
some less charged batteries? Would the car ever get to 375 volts with
the regs on the batteries?
Just a bit curious about the philosophy here.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, awesome time! That's faster than your old world record by about
0.5 seconds, and the Lithiums weren't even breathing hard yet!
So why was the final speed so much lower with a faster ET? (139 vs.
151 mph)
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> We ran 9.024 @ 139 MPH at the test session. The bike was set at a
> modest power setting for these test runs. It should go even faster
> when we turn it up to maximum HP.
> ...
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--- Begin Message ---
No doubt that DC systems are cost effective. You have to ask yourself why
most manufacturers go AC. Probably safety. Regen is very good braking. No
brushes to wear out. A little more effecient. I don't have all the
answers. People seem to pay more for them and think they are getting
something better. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Brushless turnkey system available
Lawrence,
Please explain why this is a benefit if most eBike/scooter
conversion kits cost under $300 and offer 300W and 450W systems?
I bought my eBike second hand for $250 with motor, batteries,
controller and throttle included and installed.
Maybe that regen is interesting in SF, but most areas it has
no use for scooter/bike as the amount of power delivered back
into the battery can hardly be measured. Certainly under 5%.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Brushless turnkey system available
I was at Todd Kollin's Electricmotorsports in Oakland the other day and
saw
a very intersting brushless system. It was complete and all you needed to
do was add batteries. Todd figured it was easier for the end user if he
did
the wiring and offered it completely setup & bench tested. Some of Todds
creations are very peppy and this has the potential with regen to be very
useable for scooters & small motorcycles. He has a 90 and a 200 watt unit.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/ He said he was changing the site to
show
the system but all I could find was NOW AVAILABLE WITH AC DRIVE. He wants
1000 & 1200 respectively for the two levels of power. Seems like a good
deal. Haven't seen it in action yet but it's supposed to be the brushless
ETEK. Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These cells have a specific energy of about 150 W-hrs/kg. Thus, a 750
lb pack would have about 50 kW-hrs of energy. My Wabbit (a brick with
wheels) uses about 215 W-hrs per mile. It would go about 230 miles on
such a huge pack.
Less powerful (and less safe) Li-Ion cells have more
specific energy. You can get up to 200 W-hrs/kg. Considering the size
of the pack you are talking about, you wouldn't be able to use the
1600+ HP it would be able to deliver. Less powerful, less expensive
cells would probably make more sense.
Bill Dube'
At 10:07 AM 5/11/2006, you wrote:
Bill,
if your present pack is 6kwh and 340vdc, how practical would it be
to scale up to around 30kwh. This should be around 5x the number of
cells you are now using, 5 x 800 = 4000. 340 vdc seems about right
for a car and I think about 30kwh as a practical useful battery
capacity for about 50 miles or so of range under most
circumstances. This would give a pack weight of about 750 pounds or
so, not bad. Did you already post the rough overall dimensions of
your current battery pack? Would scaling up by 5x take up about 5x the volume?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC has been used for track racing, and land speed racing. There is
one AC drag racer:
<http://research.et.byu.edu/e-blue/cars/ev1/history.htm>
I think it is kind of like the gas cars: V8's that gulp gas are the
best for drag racing. Who cares if it takes 1 vs. 2 gallons to do a
pass? For the track or land speed racing, a little more efficiency
can mean winning vs. losing (one fewer pit stop, for instance).
Likewise for electric drag racing, if you have powerful batteries you
generally have more than enough energy to do a run. So who cares if
you are using 10% more or even double the energy of an AC system?
Saving money and weight are more important than saving a couple of
amp hours.
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I knew this was going to be a difficult decission ha haha ...
> especially
> once I read the following:
>
> http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
>
> Each side of the fence has persuasive arguments. I'm curious ... I
> see
> alot about racing EVs ... but I don't see any AC drag cars ... have
> I
> just missed them somewhere or overlooked the finer details?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph.
>
>
>
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> If you spent the same amount of money on both an AC and a DC
> drive,
> >> their performance and efficiency would be essentially the same.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> >> However, AC drives cost considerably more.
> >
> > Not if compared apples to apples.
> >
> >> This extra money goes into
> >> improving efficiency, adding features (like regen), and
> increasing its
> >> useful torque/speed range.
> >
> > Regen and high RPM range basically come for free. In fact you'd
> pay
> > extra to design an AC controller with fundamentally disabled
> regen.
> >
> > Please provide an example of "considerably more" cost AC system
> which
> > has *no more* features or technical advantages over DC one (so
> apples
> > to apples comparison). Else the message can be read as AC systems
> are
> > more expensive just for the sake of being "AC" or fashion, while
> no
> > real tech advantages.
> >
> > Now, you may not find an EV AC systems as primitive as big PWM
> chopper
> > (DC controller) or contactor controller, but this is not what
> we're
> > comparing.
> >
> > For instance, if you find a DC system having these features
> > http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm and it will be still
> > "considerably less" cost than Siemens inverter described there
> > (even new, not surplus), then indeed AC setup is more expensive
> > than DC for no real reason. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.
> > Until then, sorry, I thing you're wrong on this one Lee.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If out of pocket money today is top priority no matter what,
> while you want shred tires, DC system is better. For modest
> performance an AC system can be cheaper.
The words "modest performance" are not what some consider a selling
point for an EV!
> Do you mind switching gears? If you do, AC motor is better as
> covering entire speed range on a single gear.
>
> If you don't, DC will work too. Is it OK for you to loose
> 15%-18% of the battery energy to a brake pads heat which you
> otherwise could recover (in city driving) with regenerative
> braking offered by an AC system? If OK and your commute is
> not very far, it doesn't matter. If you do, AC is better
> (but some DC systems with separately excited motors offer
> regen too).
As an AC EV driver, I can tell you that coasting (in this case, by
shifting into Neutral) is a much better use of your inertia than
regen. I spend much more time "just rolling along" than I ever do
making the AC motor convert that inertia to electricity, passing it
through the controller, and converting it to chemical potential in the
pack. Unfortunately, Ford set up their system to taper off the regen
above 25mph, so city streets usually require brake input I'd rather
*did* go to regen.
The Ranger doesn't allow very exact calculations of efficiency, but
when my wife or son drive the truck, they never shift out of Economy
(maximum regen setting), and based on the Avcon "announcement" of kWh,
need 10-20% *more* energy. It could be other driving variables, but
when I've been the passenger, I haven't notice any "seat of the pants"
differences.
Most of my EV miles are on the freeway, so I find coasting down fairly
light inclines is enough to keep my speed up. The one steep downgrade
of my commute is the only way I can get over the governed 75mph top
speed, and even in the slow lane, I'm rarely faster the flow of
traffic (it does allow me a brief period of *not* being the target of
tailgating SUVs that want to use the right lane to pass).
As they say, YMMV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are two reasons for the lower top speed. First, we had the pack
amperage turned down. This limits the HP on the last half of the
track. Second, we have much better traction, so we are launching
harder. This gives us better ETs with lower HP (and thus lower top speed.)
Bill Dube'
At 11:26 PM 5/16/2006, you wrote:
Wow, awesome time! That's faster than your old world record by about
0.5 seconds, and the Lithiums weren't even breathing hard yet!
So why was the final speed so much lower with a faster ET? (139 vs.
151 mph)
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> We ran 9.024 @ 139 MPH at the test session. The bike was set at a
> modest power setting for these test runs. It should go even faster
> when we turn it up to maximum HP.
> ...
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
DC is popular in the EV drag race crowd as they can deliver upwards of
300-400kW (more?) of energy. This is because Otmar has designed a DC
controller to deliver this much power, as well it can drive two motors. DC
motors also deliver large torque which is good to adapt quick off the line
performance.
In the AC world, most controllers are made for OEM applications, not race
applications. Some people (Cliff at ProEV www.proev.com) are very
successfully using AC motors for racing. He keeps winning autocross races
and track races with his Electric Imp project. Like some DC drag racers,
Cliff uses two AC motors (but with two controllers) to drive all four
wheels. He really leverages AC regen to help boost his range while racing.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 16, 2006 9:12 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AC vs. DC
I knew this was going to be a difficult decission ha haha ... especially
once I read the following:
http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
Each side of the fence has persuasive arguments. I'm curious ... I see alot
about racing EVs ... but I don't see any AC drag cars ... have I just missed
them somewhere or overlooked the finer details?
Thanks,
Ralph.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> If you spent the same amount of money on both an AC and a DC drive,
>> their performance and efficiency would be essentially the same.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> However, AC drives cost considerably more.
>
> Not if compared apples to apples.
>
>> This extra money goes into
>> improving efficiency, adding features (like regen), and increasing
>> its useful torque/speed range.
>
> Regen and high RPM range basically come for free. In fact you'd pay
> extra to design an AC controller with fundamentally disabled regen.
>
> Please provide an example of "considerably more" cost AC system which
> has *no more* features or technical advantages over DC one (so apples
> to apples comparison). Else the message can be read as AC systems are
> more expensive just for the sake of being "AC" or fashion, while no
> real tech advantages.
>
> Now, you may not find an EV AC systems as primitive as big PWM chopper
> (DC controller) or contactor controller, but this is not what we're
> comparing.
>
> For instance, if you find a DC system having these features
> http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm and it will be still
> "considerably less" cost than Siemens inverter described there (even
> new, not surplus), then indeed AC setup is more expensive than DC for
> no real reason. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.
> Until then, sorry, I thing you're wrong on this one Lee.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of the eBike motors are Brushless, as far as I know.
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ7242029430QQrdZ1
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:33 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Brushless turnkey system available
No doubt that DC systems are cost effective. You have to ask yourself why
most manufacturers go AC. Probably safety. Regen is very good braking. No
brushes to wear out. A little more effecient. I don't have all the
answers. People seem to pay more for them and think they are getting
something better. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Brushless turnkey system available
> Lawrence,
>
> Please explain why this is a benefit if most eBike/scooter
> conversion kits cost under $300 and offer 300W and 450W systems?
>
> I bought my eBike second hand for $250 with motor, batteries,
> controller and throttle included and installed.
>
> Maybe that regen is interesting in SF, but most areas it has
> no use for scooter/bike as the amount of power delivered back
> into the battery can hardly be measured. Certainly under 5%.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:55 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist;
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Brushless turnkey system available
>
>
> I was at Todd Kollin's Electricmotorsports in Oakland the other day and
> saw
> a very intersting brushless system. It was complete and all you needed to
> do was add batteries. Todd figured it was easier for the end user if he
> did
>
> the wiring and offered it completely setup & bench tested. Some of Todds
> creations are very peppy and this has the potential with regen to be very
> useable for scooters & small motorcycles. He has a 90 and a 200 watt unit.
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/ He said he was changing the site to
> show
>
> the system but all I could find was NOW AVAILABLE WITH AC DRIVE. He wants
> 1000 & 1200 respectively for the two levels of power. Seems like a good
> deal. Haven't seen it in action yet but it's supposed to be the brushless
> ETEK. Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> Vegetable Oil Car.
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Mini-Cooper is much in line... but not the SMART 2... which named
slipped me at the time. The Cooper, in Europe is quite affordable. The SMART
is very affordable in Canada.
This is sort of in-line with other imports, but perhaps because they are
brought in in such limited numbers. There are other examples, of course, but
based on Chinese or Indian costs. Just because a vehicle is affordable in
Europe (or elsewhere) doesn't mean it'll have any direct relation to its
cost here.
I'm not sure what's wishful thinking. It sounds rather depressing to me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: Vectrix
> Michael Perry wrote:
>
> > Offtopic: If I recall, the Mini is about $14K in the UK...
> > $25K here. That little BMW micro 2 seater was supposed to
> > be around $12K. If I recall, it's about $14K in Canada and
> > $23-30K in the US, in different versions of trim.
>
> Wishful thinking, I'm afraid ;^>
>
> According to <http://www.mini.ca>, your basic Mini starts at about
> CAD$24k and tops out at nearly CDN$37k for a convertible Mini Cooper S.
> Once you factor in the exchange, Canadian Mini prices, at least, are
> pretty much in line with US prices.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<What about some "bolt in" "off the shelf" conversion
<kits?
That's part of the plan.
<Basically
<bolt in battery racks for a variety of cars(price is
<an important
<consideration)? Good step by step install
<instructions which are
<basically pictures with captions underneath them. Or
<install videos.
We will be producing installation DVD's.
<Adapter plates... ?
Them too.
<No interest financing on conversions or parts? Have
<people drop off
<their car and convert it and have them pay it off
<using monthly
<payments?
There are people on this list working on getting the
EV conversion tax credit put back on the books. That's
better than a no interest loan. But once we have a
proven track record we will be seeking a financing
partner.
<Can I purchase a big Zilla for ~$500 a month?
How's your credit?
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Be careful what you wish for..
> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:02:22 -0500
>
> Gadget, I saw your Triumph in that trailer. Nice
> car. Can't
> wait to see what it looks like painted. Just love
> the body
> the GT6 has. Quite aerodynamic, I'm amazed your
> range is so
> poor. By your range description in an earlier
> message, it
> sounds like you're getting 500 wh/mile! Definately
> need some
> alignment adjustments, LRR tires, new wheel
> bearings, and
> maybe some transmission work. Ralph Goodwin's
> Spitfire is in
> the 180-200 wh/mile region, and it is nowhere near
> as
> aerodynamic as a GT6. Get that down to 160-180
> wh/mile, and
> there is no doubt that you wouldn't get at least 30
> miles
> range on 15 Orbitals when driven sanely.
I guess when I get over the urge to blow other cars
away, I'll get very good range. Everbody loves to see
the quiet burnouts...
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Use a DC/DC converter or a PFC-xx or a battery charger that
can work off DC input and you will have constant current.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:32 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Dump Charge Current
Hi folks,
I vaguely recall this question coming up some years ago, but
apparently I didn't save the thread and I can't find it anywhere on
the web now.
I was asked about dump charging from a larger off-board battery pack
the other day, and it started me thinking. Given a 13 battery 156
Volt (nominal) battery pack, what size pack would be the most
appropriate match for a rapid dump charge? If we assume that we want
the dump pack near full discharge as the EV pack reaches full charge,
then something like an 18 battery 216 Volt dump pack would
match. This could mean as much as a 90+ Volt difference when they
are first connected, and flatten to a near zero Volt difference when
full charge is reached. To my mind this sounds like ridiculously
high currents at the start and barely a trickle near the end.
So, what actually determines the current? Assuming both battery
packs are made of 12 Volt 100 AH batteries of 0.0024 Ohms internal
resistance, how high would the initial current be? What would the
ending current be?
I tried fumbling it out myself, but it seems a bit much. If we start
at a voltage difference of 90 Volts, with a total of 31, 0.0024 Ohm
batteries in the circuit, then don't we have a total resistance of
.0744 Ohms? If Current equals Voltage divided by Resistance, then
90/.0744 = 1209.7 Amps! That sounds like something should melt
pretty quick. Using the same numbers, when it is down to a 1 Volt
difference, it would be 1/.0744 = 13.4 Amps. This sounds like we are
starting with too high a voltage difference, so I aimed not to exceed
400 Amps current.
I then tried the equation again and again with few and fewer
batteries in the dump pack. Even just going from 14 fully charged
batteries to 13 completely discharged ones, the initial current was
still on the order of 658 Amps.
So, have I really hit upon why nobody does this, or is my math
lousy? I did not allow for Voltage sag, how do I determine that? I
suppose a resistor in the circuit that could be bypassed at some
point, or perhaps several, would make things work more
smoothly. Maybe some sort of pulse circuit similar to a motor controller?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I knew this was going to be a difficult decission ha haha ...
especially once I read the following:
http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
Oh Puhleeze!
Is that bit of slander still up on the web!? Every now and then I
hear about it and it makes me cringe and swear. That argument has
more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.
A few points from just a quick look at it:
Advanced DC "8 inch" (17.5 kW). Air cooled, or more accurate - as
sold, not cooled at all e.g. a user must provide adequate cooling
with components (fans, blowers) purchased separately.
That's total BS! It has a fan built in, works fine for the rated
power if you know how to shift gears. If you add a fan, you also
increase the rating and so then it would compare to one of your more
expensive motors. I suspect less than 3% of users find a need to add
a fan. I have seen very few on cars, and also seen very few 8" motors
overheat.
Controller. Thus far, there are no water cooled programmable DC
controllers taking 380V input,
Somehow it seems that Victor thinks high voltage is better. Of
course, we know high voltage is a pain in the rear and costs more to
boot. Sometimes it's required, like when you want to keep the cost of
the AC controller and AC motor from going sky high, or if you want to
go really fast on DC. But no doubt about it, the high voltage
requirement on AC drives is a big drawback. DC motors like low
voltage and the controllers are cheap enough that we can take the
cost penalty of making them run on low voltage as well.
For comparison Victor then goes on to choose a Cafe Electric (my
company) Zilla Z2K-EHV controller rated at over half a MegaWatt! Now
that's funny!
How is the Zilla's massive 600 kW supposed to compare to his small 78
kW drive? I don't know.
I think he should have chosen the Z1K-LV. It's certainly closer to
his unit, though not at all the same power. At 156 Volts and 1000
amps it's almost twice as powerful as his AC drive but only costs
$1975. (Sorry, at the moment I don't make a smaller one) Plus the
batteries and regulators are much cheaper too. Oh wait, then his
argument wouldn't hold water would it?
Anyway, as you can see, that comparison on Victors web site is
ludicrous. I'm surprised he leaves it up there.
Still,don't get me wrong here!
I love AC drive.
Yup, I'll say it again: "I love AC drive".
Heck, I drove a AC car for years in the mid '90s. It was Fun! Ask
Wayland, he enjoyed it too.
The wide power band and regen are wonderful. And the Siemens
controllers do have longer warranties and are more complete systems
out of the box. You won't find me dissing them on quality or
features. Just don't try to tell me they are cheaper for a basic
system, or for a high power system. Or if you do, try to use some
realistic facts to do it. Ok? I send people to Victors site all the
time. For some people AC is really better. For many more DC makes
sense at this time. It's an important decision, just try to get real
facts when you make it.
btw: How about two forklift AC drives in a car? Isn't some intrepid
adventurer in the UK doing just that? That just may be cheaper than
the frustrating high voltage systems. Maybe not, but at least it's
closer than the price comparison Victor is BS'in about. Let's check
out the numbers on the forklift drive. I can't wait to hear how it
runs.
--
-Otmar-
914 EV, California Poppy, http://evcl.com/914/ (DC, and rather fast
on a budget)
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I beg to differ!
regen on my bike is the best! I've taken to going up a hill on the
way home so I can regen down the other side and it gives me anywhere
from 2.5 amps to more than 7 amps regen... at the bottom of the hill
my voltage is pegged up to >50V(48Vpack) and the bike is peppier the
rest of the way home...
When I go home without going up that hill I'm down to 46 V on the way
home and the bike is loosing it's ability to keep the speed up! there
is a 15 ft rise near home that I end up having to push the bike up
because it has lost so much power...that's no fun!
I can see the usefullness of regen at every stop sign and hill I
drive on! It does cost more, but I think it's well worth it!
T
----------------snip----------------
Lawrence,
Please explain why this is a benefit if most eBike/scooter
conversion kits cost under $300 and offer 300W and 450W systems?
I bought my eBike second hand for $250 with motor, batteries,
controller and throttle included and installed.
Maybe that regen is interesting in SF, but most areas it has
no use for scooter/bike as the amount of power delivered back
into the battery can hardly be measured. Certainly under 5%.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the world where I live and work I have to look at what is available.
The least expensive AC system gets compared to DC systems that cost
less and have fewer features.
I would love to make a clear direct comparasion but it is not possible.
I cannot make my own controllers and motors so must use what is available.
Frankly most people don't much care what is under the hood. It is the
vehicle performance that counts, speed, acceleration and range enough
for the task at hand.
I don't know about you but if I can get my needs met fully with a
$5000 machine I am not going to go buy a $50,000 machine to do the
same job. That is me, many other people will by choice choose the more
expensive option and be happy with it.
michael
On 5/16/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Now, you may not find an EV AC systems as primitive as big PWM chopper
(DC controller) or contactor controller, but this is not what we're
comparing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All sounds good. I look forward to seeing you in my wing mirrors!
Haven't road tested now the 2nd motor is wired up. But with virtually flat
batteries and only one motor I was pootling round quite happily. The next road
test should be wicked!
Batteries are back out at the moment to enable more wiring - boo!!
I'll keep you posted
Steve
Peter Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just a quick update on my first 1000 miles with the new AC regen drive
system. Background details at www.solarvan.co.uk.
The Zapi AC3 Regen system took a bit of getting used to, as it has very
close speed/throttle control, it's a bit like permanent cruise control!
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/ac3manual.pdf
You accelerate to a choosen speed, and then it holds the vehicle very
accurately (within about 2mph) of that speed, consuming more current uphill
or regenerating going downhill. It does not allow coasting or over
speeding downhill unless you press the throttle further down, which is a
minor disadvantage.
That said I am very pleased, range is comparable with the DC system about 75
miles. (I have two less TS 200ah cells, now 28 v 30 in old DC system). My
vehicle uses 250wh per mile.
The biggest improvement is torque, acceleration and hill climbing ability.
I am a great advocate of not having a gearbox (I have never had one), and I
feel totally vindicated with this decision using the new AC drive.
With DC the vehicle would struggle to hill start on very steep hills, and
could overheat on long hills. Not so with AC.
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/adck914003.zip
The 12kw 96v "Best" Motor produces an amazing stump pulling 317nm or
233ft/lb of torque at 2hz using the Zapi AC3 Controller.
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/bestmotor.zip
I have deliberately driven it to all the steepest hills within range, and it
is not troubled at all! Some are 25% grade or 1 in 4. I need to find
something steeper. It will basically go up any hill now at whatever speed
you batteries can provide current for! If you try to go up at high speed,
current rises rapidly as the motor ramps up to the peak 450A trying to
maintain speed. I try not to hammer my batteries like this by adopting a
sort of crawler gear mentality.
When I approach a really steep hill, say 25% grade. I slow down to <15mph
like a large truck changing down to crawler gear. I go up at this speed and
current is very low <100A, much more reasonable. Everthing stays cooler and
is less stressed. It just needed a different mind set. The air cooled motor
has never been above 50C even in very warm weather after climbing some
notorious local hills.
Going down the same hill at a safe speed produces a strong regen current of
75-100A for it's duration. No need to use the brakes at all. I love watching
the amp meter going +!
With more torque acceleration is much improved. Top speed can be
adjusted/limited with controller.
So I recommend this low voltage AC system for a local neighbourhood EV,
especially if you have lots of stop start town driving. I'm also confident
to recommend Thundersky Lithium Ion cells after 3 years with them. I would
never go back to pb again!
Regards
Peter Perkins.
Now were did I put the money for those super capacitors!
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's some more trip data.
Note that these are 'blind' non-automated test runs.
5-10:I did a low speed mostly ev-only run of 12.6 miles @ 89.9mpg,
began at 248v and ended with 216v, recharged 0.88kWh from the wall.
Also did 4 high speed mixed-mode runs to/from work the next 2 days.
5-11:First trip to work was 27.8 miles @ 62.2mpg, charged at work,
began at 248v and ended with 230v, recharged 1.16kWh from the wall.
5-11:Next trip was back home 28.2 miles @ 59.7mpg, charged at home,
began at 242v and ended with 218v, recharged 1.69kWh from the wall.
5-12:Checked the packs balance in the morning (+highest+..-lowest-):
12.47..12.48..12.44..12.47.+12.50+.12.46..12.42..12.45..12.40..12.40
......-12.35-.12.48.+12.50+.12.43..12.44..12.46..12.43..12.45..12.42
5-12:Next days trip to work was 27.8 miles @ 63.3mpg, charged at work,
began at 238v and ended with 157v, recharged 3.54kWh from the wall.
.oO( So this was a very bad trip, 1.37vpc or 8.26vpbat
.oO( and put it on charge in short order.
5-12:Last trip home was 28.2 miles @ 63.8mpg, charged at home,
began at 248v and ended with 224v, recharged 2.41kWh from the wall.
5-12:Checked the packs balance before charging (+highest+..-lowest-):
11.72..11.79..11.69..11.76..11.85..11.74..11.67..11.74..11.64..11.67
......-11.49-.11.83.+11.87+.11.74..11.73..11.77..11.72..11.77..11.74
5-15:Finally, yesterday after a 5 mile demo for a Seattle Times guy.
I put 1.14kWh in at work, and another 0.74kWh at home from the wall.
The resting voltage still ended a little shy at 245v.
I've sent my CAN-View in to Norm so he can wire and test the new relay
board since I had some trouble the first time I tried to add it. So
I'll be out of commission for a week or so till I get it back.
I suppose I could continue doing more 'blind' mixed-mode runs except
that Danika will be driving it during the week in normal HEV mode
since she has sold her old Ford Taurus. She probably won't be using
the PHEV modes until it's fully automated...
I finally have my first tank which includes electric fuel numbers!
423.0 miles, 6.987 gallons, 25040 miles on the odometer, $22.00 for
gas, 60.54 mpg, 9.68kWh of electricity, $0.63 worth of electrons!
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusBlue_Mileage
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
