EV Digest 5494
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How to attach battery rack to firewall
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: AC vs. DC
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Looking for C or D size NiMh batteries
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) g'bye Porsche
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Donor Car Recommendations for EV Conversion
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Other Hybrids Honda Insight
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Looking for C or D size NiMh batteries
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC vs. DC [long]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC vs. DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fw: Vectrix
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Other Hybrids Honda Insight
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AC vs. DC
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC vs. DC
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Interesting article on EVs in Dan's Data
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Edward Kellogg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: g'bye Porsche
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 17 May 2006 19:59, Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi John,
Thanks for clarifying your numbers and assumptions.
If Toyota is smart (and when looking at what they did
with the Prius, I have an idea about that) then the
sale price of a RAV4 EV should have been very close if not above
the manufacturing cost.
The Prius program is an entirely different ball of wax. Because it is
market driven. And it is a market that Toyota created - prior to the
Prius, there was no demand for a hybrid - plug in or otherwise. It was
always intended to be profitable.
The RAV4 was a response to regulatory extortion. Build and put on the
road x number of evs or lose the ability to sell in your largest single
market. Leasing and selling at huge losses (well, not really a loss,
because the purchasers of other Toyota products actually paid the
subsidy) made sense against the cost of losing California. But only in
that case.
I know that the US automakers are contantly monitoring their
competitors and have often exclaimed that they do not want to
go into Hybrids, because they are convinced that Toyota is
making a loss on every Prius sold - by their books & politics.
And that was certainly true while they were claiming that, but it was
really an excuse for getting beaten in engineering and marketing.
Toyota had the cash reserves from being highly profitable to invest in a
competitive advantage.
The first response by the competitors was to decry that advantage as
unfair. Now they are busy playing follow the leader and are all rushing
to offer hybrids themselves, now. Ford's is essentially a Toyota drive
train - and putting more money in Toyotas bank account.
In the mean time, Toyota is continuing their investment
(and yes, that ALWAYS constitues an initial loss) in providing
Hybrid drive for every model in their program.
Here I am going to argue the other way - initial investment is small,
and I would bet that each of these models is sold at a hefty profit
marginally. The product is already from a profitable program, now there
are minor tooling costs to fit the exact same technology into other
vehicles, so they are gaining economy of scale and improving their
manufacturing processes, etc.
Since their financial situation is stellar, they would not
be eager to do this if it did not make financial sense.
I am aware that this is an assumption of mine, so there may
be a truth that is different, but Toyota's own financial
statements have indicated that they have reached the break-even
point with the Prius some years ago, so let's assume their
financial guys are capable.
Absolutely I agree. Their bean counters are at least as capable as
their engineers and their marketers. Overall they are an exceptional
organization, and it is no coincidence they will soon overtake GM as the
largest producer of cars and trucks in the world.
So - back to your last statement - "it is a bad investment".
That depends heavily on your expectations.
Looking only 1 or 3 months into the future, a lot of things
that could be considered bad investments were only the start
of a highly profitable curve. You would only find that out
by executing it and a vision that stretches many years into
the future is necessary to get such a project rolling.
Otherwise every bean counter will immediately shut you down.
No bean counter is going to set a 3 month horizon for breakeven or
profitability. But if we are to credit them for having the savvy to do
a correct ROI analysis on the Prius and hybrid technology, then let us
also credit them for having done so on the RAV4 EV - and that the
results were negative, no matter how much your personal desire that it
be otherwise. I mean, consider that the RAV4 EV, smaller, less
powerful, shorter ranged, less well optioned, and less presitigious -
was priced in 2002 at about the price of a Lexus 400h today. Seriously,
how much of a market do you think there is to get less for more? You
might do the fuel cost analysis and show that in the long run, the RAV4
EV is cheaper, but then compare it to a rx330 at 35k and you would have
a harder time making the case, or a gas RAV at 25k and you wouldn't be
able to make it at all. And while manufacturers do ROI analysis,
consumers don't - else noone would buy a new car at all!! :)
I am afraid that is exactly what happened when the CARB
mandate in California was changed....
No, what happened was that once again, central planning failed to
allocate resources efficiently. Removal of the mandate caused the end
of uneconomic behavior. And allowed manufacturers - in this case Toyota
- to pursue technologies that improve the situation - better gas
mileage, even if just incrementally, in the 10-20% range - in a broader
range of vehicles.
On another note:
I see people putting $60 gas in their truck and because it
only gets 11 MPG they have to repeat this every 200 miles.
(the popular Dodge RAM 1500)
In other words: when their vehicle hits 100,000 miles
they have invested $30,000 in gas alone.
With electric, driving for 3c per mile you have $27,000
more in the bank after 100,000 miles
(not even counting what you save in regular maintenance)
so by that time the RAV4 EV price is not so extravagant
any more. You could even afford a battery replacement
from the money you did not "surrender to big oil"....
True enough, but as I said, consumers don't do ROI.
Interestingly enough, one of my weekly reads is www.autoextremist.com -
I am a car guy first - and he is down on hybrids. First, the hybrid is
not what it was originally hyped to be, as the gains are simply
incremental. He is pro-Detroit, and thinks - I agree - that for Detroit
to follow Toyota down the hybrid path is a loser. A Mercury Mariner
hybrid enriches Toyota probably as much as Ford, and while GM and Ford
are busy getting economy models - already a low margin business -
hybridized, Toyota is already selling top of the line models - high
margin - as hybrids.
The way for Detroit to return to increasing market share is to lead, not
follow in technology - and his prescription is, believe it or not,
battery (and fuel cell) electric vehicles! This is a guy who thinks the
500hp Z06 is the best car in the world, and he thinks electrics are
where Detroit should invest.
I am skeptical of the market for it, but if technology can create a 200
mi range real world car (4 or 5 passengers with cargo capacity) can be
sold at the price of, say an Impala - 25k or so - he just might be
right.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken,
I don't think you us should do it that way. My Batteries set over the front
frame as it is. I have a vw rabbit pickup with similar parts. If you are
putting your
batteries in the back you need a frame that can set down over the shock towers.
I just added a pic to the evalbum(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/742) with my
hood up from this weekend.
Bob Salem
> My conversion of a Scirocco has reached the point of installing the battery
> rack in the front. I need to bolt it to the firewall. What is the
> recommended method of attachment. I've looked at nutserts but can't get the
> installation tool to all the locations.
>
> Using lead acid, it's heavy when loaded. Do I need to reinforce the
> firewall?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ken
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
> big.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Victor (and others),
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
parameters connected to them? Or have integrated DC-DC converters?
Or at least built in software fixed model of the motor attached to it?
I suspect a DC controller doesn't care what motor it is feeding, so
can't optimize efficiency or stay away from dangerous for the motor
values. Not the voltages/currents you can limit, but something
like prevent rotor saturation while maximizing power for given
temp. But what the heck, we got kW, it makes up for lack of
fine details like that, right?
I'm not the expert, but a series DC motor does not need to be protected
against rotor saturation, nor does its controller need to do anything
beyond overtemperature, overcurrent, or overspeed detection. The rotor
and stator field are intrinsically orthogonal, so the controller could
not change this and does not need to maintain this (which is where all
the expense in AC controls comes from). Nor does the controller try to
maximize efficiency at a given temperature, because it is intrinsically!
No DC-DC, however. (IIRC)
...snip...
Here is a pair that is as close a match as I can come up with.
AC:
one of your drive systems set to 280 battery amps
(312 volt system of X ah, not included in cost.)
Cost: ??
Let's take MES-DEA system, more amps and more volts allowed.
325A RMS, 400V, $3,826 (inverter alone). The motors
of about the same power $3.5k. So, say $7.5k a system.
Yes, more dollars so what? You paid for what you get.
I think you could stress reliability -- has Siemens released details on
the expected mean time to failure? has Otmar?
DC:
Zilla Z1K-LV set to 560 battery amps
(156 volt system of 2X ah, not included in cost.)
ADC 8 inch motor
But it's not the same as liquid cooled high speed AC motor.
If it puts out the same power, then yes, it may as well be the same.
2, SW-200 contactors
Far from the same as railroad reliability grade Schaltbau contactors
(http://www.schaltbau-gmbh.com/) we use
Curtis pot box
Compared with Bosch throttle sensor? You've got to be kidding.
Those things are what really make the difference. With EVs, we're
already talking about the amortized cost -- how long are your components
going to last?
Cory Cross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:10 AM 5/17/2006, you wrote:
Hey All,
Just an FYI.
Be on the lookout for scammers who are selling bogus "How to build your
own EV" publications on Ebay. These people are obviously trying to take
advantage of the higher gas prices by selling OUR copyrighted
intellectual material.
An alert EVer has informed me that someone has lifted the "Build an EV"
section off the EVA/DC website and is selling it for $4.99 on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/How-To-Build-An-Electric-
Car_W0QQitemZ9518340671QQcategoryZ47103QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView Item
He found this out when he suspected the same guy stole his stuff. He's
going to send me a PDF file of it so I can see what was lifted.
I guess the lesson that can be learned for this is to copyright your
stuff and watermark your pictures or illustrations.
Copyrights - like patents - only grant you the right to spend money
on lawyers to protect them. If you haven't got the money for the
lawyers, they are pretty worthless.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Looking for C or D size NiMh batteries
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:33:15 -0700 (PDT)
I'm looking for high temp (65C ambient) NiMh
batteries.
Probaby 50-200 pieces.
Anybody have a link for sources?
(not necessarily for an EV.)
Thanks,
Rod
http://www.rabbittool.com/
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=217
Reagrds, A.K. Howard. Las Vegas, NV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Details! Argh! Details!
I'm still puzzling over the donor vehicle...I've my eyes now loosely
fixed on either a 1993 Mustang or 1990 Celica. I'm leaning towards
the Mustang if only because of its boxy shape (less wasted space
filling a box with boxes rather than filling a drum with boxes).
Besides the Mustang outweighing the Celica by 325 lbs another
immediate significant difference between the two is the drive train;
the Mustang has a longitudinal front engine, rear-wheel drive whilst
the Celica has a transverse front engine, front-wheel drive.
I've long been under the impression that front wheel drive is more
efficient in getting power to the wheels than its rear-wheel drive
brethren. If this is true then the Celica gains favor.
Any thoughts or preferences between FWD vs RWD in an EV sense?
Wayne White
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried to post this earlier today..don't know if it went through, so if
you've already seen/read this...sorry...
Hello EV’ers...it’s been a long time since I have been able to be a part
of this discussion list. I have been overwhelmed with demands on my time
since I left my career type job at the University in 2003, and have not
been able to keep up with routine e-mails, much less the traffic on the
EVDL. I have been having a great EV time though driving the slick 914
conversion that I bought from Brian Hall last year; a real attention
getter and conversation-starter…until last Sunday morning, when it was
the 5 AM wake up call for our rural neighborhood when it went up in
flames very spectacularly. This EV had a really nice custom fiberglass
body, and that stuff burned big time. On the side of “This is Bad, but
it could have been (much) Worse”, I had been having a problem with the
shift linkage and couldn’t get it into reverse, which is the only reason
it was parked OUTSIDE of the garage. Inside of the garage were two other
vehicles ( the Gogomobil and our Civic Hybrid) and every tool I own
(which is quite a few…If the Porsche had been inside, no one would have
known about the fire until the whole garage was totally involved. So,
give thanks where appropriate.
I had driven the EV Saturday, and charged it when I returned, thinking
that I was going to drive it Saturday night and Sunday morning, but then
plans changed, and I took another car Saturday night. So, it wasn’t
plugged in, and it wasn’t moving.
The arson investigator couldn’t find any cause for the fire, and I was
way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said that he had talked
to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers one other time this happened
to an EV with Optimas (which I had). One cell reversed, and turned into
a very hungry resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the EV.
This makes sense to me, since the origin of the fire that the
investigator pointed out to me was where the weakest two batteries were
(the next two to be replaced).
I have been working my way through the 32 YT’s that I salvaged out of
the wreck of WATTABMR in 2003, and they have been lasting nicely thanks
to Rich and Joes’ continued development of the regulator technology.
Anyway, thoughts on this: my garage/shop is separated from the house by
a pretty good distance…what if it was underneath living quarters (as
many garages are)?
Are AGMs uniquely susceptible to this, or is this a potential problem
for other types of batteries?
Michael B (accomplished Chef of Porsche Flambe’)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You're pushing the envelope. Need to stick to gas for
> a few more years:
> 1) _Really_ check your commuting distance. Few
> commuter cars can pack enough lead in them to get you
> the 75, though some may get you the 50, depending on
> speed. I could sit in I-5 traffic all-day, and use
> 1/2 the pack going the 25 mi. I needed from Irvine to
> Mission Viejo years ago. (;-p
> 2) A/C is up to 1/3 of your juice. Take the 50 mi.
> and subtract 1/3, to see how bad you need it. I've
> cut a hole in my Civvy to let convection do the work,
> and my Oregon summers are in the low 100s on most
> days.
>
The harsh reality is that some people may not be ready to drive EVs,
at least with their present limitations. People are used to flooring
it from a stop, driving much faster than is efficient, and owning much
heavier, un-aerodynamic vehicles than neccessary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know a few who read this list have Insights so this
message is directed at them... Mine Has 110,000 mi on
it now and the state of charge bars are indicating
that the storage capacity of my 144v battery is going
down--ie it goes from full charge to empty much sooner
than it used to... it also goes from 1 or 2 bars to
full charge quicker than normal... long and short I
think it is time to change the batt...Honda wants lots
of money for the swap...$3000 I went to a junk yard
and got a batt and the complete charge control
computer both for $500... of coarse I know nothing
about the condition of these used parts...does anyone
have a service manual and or ideas as to where I can
find info about testing and swaping ...or maybe I will
be able to paralell the two packs... anyone have any
experiance or advice... The motor still runs good or
I would think about making it all electric???
suggestions???
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tom, supposedly the Sienna rolls off a hybrid in
> '07,
> and yes, indications (buzz on the web) says it will
> be
> the same as the Camry.
>
>
> --- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Toyota is or is planning to offer other hybrids
> > besides the Prius.
> > I've read about Highlander, Camry and Lexus
> hybrids.
> > Do the
> > Highlander, Camry and Lexus hybrids share the
> Prius
> > drive system?
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
> for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >I'm looking for high temp (65C ambient) NiMh
> >batteries.
> >Probaby 50-200 pieces.
> >Anybody have a link for sources?
> >(not necessarily for an EV.)
> >Thanks,
> >Rod
>
> http://www.rabbittool.com/
>
> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=217
>
> Reagrds, A.K. Howard. Las Vegas, NV.
> >
>
Too bad the max d/c rate is 3C...at least that is what BatterySpace lists.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
Lee A. Hart wrote:
>> A 3-phase fullwave AC rectifier is 6 diodes. A 3-phase inverter
>> without regen needs 6 transistors. If you want regen, you need to
>> add 6 diodes, one across each transistor. Thus there are now 12
>> power semiconductors.
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> No. The diodes are there to start with. For a properly-operating
> inverter with IGBTs, they conduct for half of the time.
You are assuming one particular inverter circuit (the 6-transistor,
6-diode fullwave bridge). But there are *many* inverter circuits. Not
all of them require all these parts. Some use fewer power semiconductors
(and some use even more)!
Look up classic inverter circuits, and you will find dozens of basic
types (and hundreds of variations).
> If MOSFETs are used, conduction is possible in two directions but
> for limited current, so diodes are still necessary.
MOSFETs happen to naturally have a parasitic diode across them that is
there whether you like it or not. Unfortunately, it isn't a very good
diode. It's not particularly fast, nor does it have a particularly low
forward drop. It's not uncommon to put a real diode in antiparallel for
better performance (if your circuit needs an antiparallel diode).
IGBTs do not naturally have an antiparallel diode. If your circuit needs
this diode, you have to add it as a separate diode in its own package,
or buy a more expensive part where the manufacturer has added an
internal diode for you. If you look inside an IGBT module, you'd see
that these diodes are separate chips, wired internally in antiparallel
with the IGBT chips. In other words, having them there adds cost.
> Avoiding regen adds software, from the lowest standpoint. It is
> unavoidable (AFAIK) on a simple V/Hz control. It does NOT double
> the amount of control logic, unless the programmer is doing
> something extremely strange or inefficient.
Most brushless DC (i.e. synchronous AC with an inverter) motors don't
even use a micro. They use the minimum amount of hardware to do the job.
Guess what... no regen.
Likewise for most stepper motor type applications. They don't include
regen unless it is absolutely necessary, because it adds cost and
complexity.
> Personal experiences... Power silicon and/or capacitors are the most
> expensive pieces of my working AC controller.
Exactly! You are using the same "high road" circuits as the auto
company's EV AC controllers. Therefore, you wind up with the same high
cost in silicon and other parts, and the same long steep learning curve.
> The simplest form of any smooth AC control is a variable-frequency,
> variable-amplitude sine wave (or three out of phase).
Is it? :-)
The 3-phase sinewave motor is an elegant, sophisticated way to do it. It
fits in nicely with the decades of evolution in AC sinewave
line-operated motors.
But, producing nice clean sinewaves efficiently from a battery is a
horrendously difficult problem. And that, my friends, leads to expensive
solutions.
DC motors and controllers are cheaper and simpler because they didn't
take this approach. They look at the job to be done, and seek the best
way to implement it ("best" meaning the best compromise between cost,
performance, efficiency, and other factors).
> An AC controller without a microprocessor is very comparable to a DC
> system's contactor controller: jerky.
Again; no it's not.
Please don't think I'm just being disagreeable. I'm really trying to
make quite an important point:
It is pride and hubris to think that we know all there is
to know about AC EV controllers, and that the best solution
has already been discovered and implemented by the auto
company EVs.
Notice that *all* the successful applications where DC-powered AC motors
have replaced DC brushed motors have used *different* topologies and
motor types than the auto companies used! That should be a hint!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
> Is there a possibility of using a basic AC controller, typically used
> for some other application, in an EV conversion?
> If so, where would be a good place to start hunting?
Sure. There is hope for converting an inexpensive industrial
variable-speed AC motor controller into an EV controller. It would
involve replacing the small transistor with bigger ones, and tweaking
things to "fool" it into working with a different (larger) motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Are you aware that the Vectrix is a *scooter*, not a motorcycle?
>
> The proper comparison is between the Vectrix and other sit-down,
> Vespa-esque styled scooters, typically of 250cc or so displacement, not
> half-litre sportbikes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Potential EV riders *know* they will be paying a lot more so they can
run on electrons, and should know they'll have to deal with some
limitations. For comparison, a 150cc, 4-stroke Bajaj -
http://www.bajajusa.com/Bajaj%20Chetak.htm - tops out over 55mph, gets
over 100mpg, and costs under $3000. With a Vectrix running $8000USD,
they're in 2 different markets. Too bad the Lectra got murdered by ZAP
before we got to see what Larry Cronk could have done with lithium
packs and further development of the VR system.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read something on another list about the Insight and the older HCHs going
through some kind of battery calibration mode that caused the symptoms you
describe.
--- keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know a few who read this list have Insights so this
> message is directed at them... Mine Has 110,000 mi on
> it now and the state of charge bars are indicating
> that the storage capacity of my 144v battery is going
> down--ie it goes from full charge to empty much sooner
> than it used to... it also goes from 1 or 2 bars to
> full charge quicker than normal... long and short I
> think it is time to change the batt...Honda wants lots
> of money for the swap...$3000 I went to a junk yard
> and got a batt and the complete charge control
> computer both for $500... of coarse I know nothing
> about the condition of these used parts...does anyone
> have a service manual and or ideas as to where I can
> find info about testing and swaping ...or maybe I will
> be able to paralell the two packs... anyone have any
> experiance or advice... The motor still runs good or
> I would think about making it all electric???
> suggestions???
>
> --- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Tom, supposedly the Sienna rolls off a hybrid in
> > '07,
> > and yes, indications (buzz on the web) says it will
> > be
> > the same as the Camry.
> >
> >
> > --- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Toyota is or is planning to offer other hybrids
> > > besides the Prius.
> > > I've read about Highlander, Camry and Lexus
> > hybrids.
> > > Do the
> > > Highlander, Camry and Lexus hybrids share the
> > Prius
> > > drive system?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> > too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> > out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
> > for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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I agree ... so long as the necessities are listed, then the optionals.
Thanks,
Ralph.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
As I look at it, all motors run on AC. (with one impractical exception)
Some are *internally commutated* and some are *externally comutated. *
The induction motor ends up haveing a very low electrical frequency in
the rotor because you have to subtract the mechanical frequency. This
dictates a high turns ratio between the stator and the armature when
viewed as a transformer. (the secondary voltage is quite low). A low
frequency, high turns transformer would be huge for higher amps, with
larger wire, and would just melt the rotor anyway. The need for a smooth
rotating magnetic field causes this primary to be distributed and this
gives a high amount of turns. We end up useing the smallest wire that
gives us a high turns that can handle a good amps. This becomes a high
resistance(relative to dc commutated motor) and this dictates the
higher voltage at a lower amps as being the defacto standard.
Since induction motors have a basically flat torque profile, peaking
just before "breakdown torque and have reduced torqe at start, and there
is less of a penalty with high rpm, it is just natural to run em fast
and gear them down.
The Induction motor is rotor limited,except the wound rotor with slip
energy recovery, it can have dc like starting torque with less amps than
all listed here, it is the cannonical induction motor from which
squirl-cage is a single instance of.
The series wound DC motor is commutator limited
Permanent magnet motors are field limited. but without induction are
much,much simpler to control. It is like a sep-ex with field control
locked down at one point. This also gives them a sharp effiency point.
All are availability limited.
The one statement that gets my goat in all this is the claim the
induction motors are simpler and cheaper. That is the quote I would like
removed until an example can be offered. Not yet have I seen an AC
induction motor suitable for EV use with such a "cheaper" price tag. If
you are gonna say "They never meant to be a basic systems, they meant to
be feature
rich systems. So why should they be as cheap as basic one? " then don't
also say "Most commonly used AC induction motor - in general simpler
construction and lower cost than comparable power most common series DC
motor. "
I would like to add however that I know understand why AC drives are
sold with the motors. Or why a lot of inverter/motor combinations are
only sold as a unit. It is in the realtime math that uses the
inductance and mutual inductance in the equations along with the
amperage,angular volocity and calculated slip % to calculate the
commutation frequency and PWM freq(for voltage) hundreds of times per
rotation. This usually is done with a dedicated DSP having only
parameter changes for a limited range of operation. As new designs
emerge, this is becoming less and less of an issue, the dsp's nolonger
have to be burned to get the speed needed, they can be flashed.
I think we need to create an AC vs DC page that we can reference.
Update as products become avail and refine into an unbiased infromation
source. not that the ac vs dc debate isn't the most fun I have had
without getting shocked.
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John Norton wrote:
> I doubt that even the ones sold were even incrementally profitable.
> The leases all had to be a loss. The battery pack alone was more
> than the difference in a gas and electric RAV4, forget about the R&D
> and tooling costs involved, spread over a run of 1200 or so vehicles.
Your're still trying to say that a car (any car) has to be profitable
even if you only sell 1200 of them. That's a ridiculously small number
to amortize your development costs over. That attitude is why American
businesses are losing out to the competition.
Of course the batteries were expensive; they only ordered 1200 of them.
These weren't some slight modification of an off-the-shelf product; they
were full-custom designs, solely for their EVs. There is no way that
1200 of them was enough to pay off the development costs.
In contrast, when Honda and Toyota started building their hybrids, they
used standard "D" size nimh batteries. And, they ordered them in much
larger quantities; something like 50,000 pack the first year.
> The EV would not have existed at all without the CARB mandate
Sure they would. EVs existed before the CARB mandate was ever written,
and they are still being built after the mandate ended. The mandate
certainly encouraged the *auto companies* to produce EVs; but it
provided zero incentive for anyone else!
I don't think Toyota considered the RAV4-EV a failure per se; more
likely, they considered it a successful learning experiment. They then
went on to their hybrids, which are even more complex and expensive, but
were likely to be more successful at making money.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Transverse engines are more efficent, as their final gear does not have the
losses associated with the crown and pinion of a typical front engine/rear
wheel drive car. If you want faster off the line acceleration, rear wheel
drive is superior, because as the car accelerates the weight shifts to the
rear, giving more traction to the rear wheels.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: May 17, 2006 7:59 PM
To: EV
Subject: Front-Wheel or Rear-Wheel Drive
Details! Argh! Details!
I'm still puzzling over the donor vehicle...I've my eyes now loosely fixed
on either a 1993 Mustang or 1990 Celica. I'm leaning towards the Mustang if
only because of its boxy shape (less wasted space filling a box with boxes
rather than filling a drum with boxes).
Besides the Mustang outweighing the Celica by 325 lbs another immediate
significant difference between the two is the drive train; the Mustang has a
longitudinal front engine, rear-wheel drive whilst the Celica has a
transverse front engine, front-wheel drive.
I've long been under the impression that front wheel drive is more efficient
in getting power to the wheels than its rear-wheel drive brethren. If this
is true then the Celica gains favor.
Any thoughts or preferences between FWD vs RWD in an EV sense?
Wayne White
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't suffer as
much from the high prices of excess.
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There is (beside the price tag) one thing I dislike on ac systems, though
just personal gut feeling. I don't like the idea of having everything so
closely linked together, kind of like the old 'all-in-one' phono system.
If any part fails, you have to wait for repairs. In a dc system, you just
get a replacement component and be done with.
What I miss on dc systems is regen. And it strikes me as odd, that nobody
came up with a solution for that. Like a second set of brushes or even a
small(er) generator that could be mounted to either end of an, say,
advanced dc motor to produce a few amps on braking.
Michaela
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Don't forget the Mustang's V8 is much heavier than a Celica 4
cylinder, so you can make up some or even most of the 325 lbs
difference. I'd imagine this is still true for the six.
I don't know about Celicas, but there are a gob of race parts for the
Mustang, lots of stuff to lighten them.
--- Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... Besides the Mustang outweighing the Celica by 325 lbs ...
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Like the guy that was selling references to Myers motors.
Have not seen him in a while.
It happens all the time, often you can find the stuff online,
if you just try. If not, you may decide to pay for the "service"
but I agree that selling found stuff is not a honorable business.
You could see if he indeed sold this stuff before,
then contact each of the winners from the last 30 days
and tell them to request a refund because he is selling
copyrighted material.
That would hurt his business case real bad and you can
easily and quickly do this with a standard email referencing
your site and original (free) material; finding his past auctions
is an easy task as well...
Or expect that he will run out of steam real fast and just ignore
him - he is making pocket money and drawing attention to EV's...
Good for him.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:42 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV Copyright Infringement running rampant
On Wed, 17 May 2006 13:10:12 -0400, Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I guess the lesson that can be learned for this is to copyright your
>stuff and watermark your pictures or illustrations.
Or just remind yourself that it really doesn't matter and forget about
it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
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Hi all,
Dan Rutter, the Aussie gadget reviewer, posted an interesting article
about EVs today.
http://www.dansdata.com/modularcar.htm
He basically talks about converting a Toyota Hilux ute (pickup) into an
EV, and using a decent sized generator in a trailer as a range extender.
Mark
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I had talked to the seller also – when I test drove the vehicle, and
I was one bidders over $43,000 (I decline to state which one). I
didn't care for the implication that I was less than honest just
because I don't buy a lot of stuff on ebay.
I'm sorry about the confusion. I didn't have the right quotes in my
reply.
Ed Kellogg
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chat… eckellogg138 (AIM)
eckellogg3838 (AIM)
Skype eckellogg
ICQ 243051412
Did yo notice that the bidders above about $43k were all very low
feedback folks? Hmmm.
Mike
On May 14, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Death to All Spammers wrote:
Has nothing to do with eBay. If you've been on the EVDL long enough,
you'd know what this was a reference to.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dr. Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not bad for a car that originally sold for $43,000.
On May 16, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Ricky Suiter wrote:
Believe me or not out there, I actually talked to the seller. He
was calling on my Insight I had for sale the day after the sale. We
chatted about EV's for a little while, and he didn't seem at all
discouraged about the auction and said the winning bidder was
getting the money put together. I'm relatively certain the sale
went just fine, and your probably right in that the bidders joined
to bid on the RAV. He seemed tickled pink about the sale and didn't
want to sell it, but had a commute that was longer than the RAV
could do after moving.
John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Edward Kellogg posted:
On May 1, 2006, at 7:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=4633576306
Are you trying to insinuate something? It could just be that the
interested parties only use ebay occasionally, for something
important.
I'll take a stab at what this cryptic message probably means.
Someone had posted a comment that said something like "notice how all
the top bidders had very low amounts of feedback". I thought the
same thing, in fact they probably became new members of eBay just so
they could bid on the RAV4.
John
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone
call rates.
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Michael,
Very sorry to hear about your loss.
But indeed you have been spared a much worse fate...
I seem to recall you were using buddy-paired YTs.
(32 batteries in paralleled pairs, 16 x 12V = 192V series)
Could that have been an issue?
Normally if a car is not driven/charged, no current is
flowing unless one string/buddy pair is shorting out, then
the parallel battery/string suddenly does see a path to
send current!
No fuses of disconnects on >every< battery, so this is
typically an unlimited situation, where you will see
full short-circuit amps, typically around 3000, resulting
in up to 40 kW power production in one battery.
Not to mention the battery cable temp...
Frankly, with all the discussions we have about the twin
strings in the US Electricars getting very short battery
life, this is an additional and very serious reason to
avoid parallel battery configurations if they are not
individually managed/protected.
Sorry you had to find this failure in such a destructive test.
Blessings,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of michael bearden
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: g'bye Porsche
I tried to post this earlier today..don't know if it went through, so if
you've already seen/read this...sorry...
Hello EV’ers...it’s been a long time since I have been able to be a part
of this discussion list. I have been overwhelmed with demands on my time
since I left my career type job at the University in 2003, and have not
been able to keep up with routine e-mails, much less the traffic on the
EVDL. I have been having a great EV time though driving the slick 914
conversion that I bought from Brian Hall last year; a real attention
getter and conversation-starter…until last Sunday morning, when it was
the 5 AM wake up call for our rural neighborhood when it went up in
flames very spectacularly. This EV had a really nice custom fiberglass
body, and that stuff burned big time. On the side of “This is Bad, but
it could have been (much) Worse”, I had been having a problem with the
shift linkage and couldn’t get it into reverse, which is the only reason
it was parked OUTSIDE of the garage. Inside of the garage were two other
vehicles ( the Gogomobil and our Civic Hybrid) and every tool I own
(which is quite a few…If the Porsche had been inside, no one would have
known about the fire until the whole garage was totally involved. So,
give thanks where appropriate.
I had driven the EV Saturday, and charged it when I returned, thinking
that I was going to drive it Saturday night and Sunday morning, but then
plans changed, and I took another car Saturday night. So, it wasn’t
plugged in, and it wasn’t moving.
The arson investigator couldn’t find any cause for the fire, and I was
way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said that he had talked
to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers one other time this happened
to an EV with Optimas (which I had). One cell reversed, and turned into
a very hungry resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the EV.
This makes sense to me, since the origin of the fire that the
investigator pointed out to me was where the weakest two batteries were
(the next two to be replaced).
I have been working my way through the 32 YT’s that I salvaged out of
the wreck of WATTABMR in 2003, and they have been lasting nicely thanks
to Rich and Joes’ continued development of the regulator technology.
Anyway, thoughts on this: my garage/shop is separated from the house by
a pretty good distance…what if it was underneath living quarters (as
many garages are)?
Are AGMs uniquely susceptible to this, or is this a potential problem
for other types of batteries?
Michael B (accomplished Chef of Porsche Flambe’)
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