EV Digest 5505
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: g'bye Porsche
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fans in parallel
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) generator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Kalifornia .... registering conversions
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: g'bye Porsche
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV Range Records
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Aerodynamics
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Things that make you go Hmmm (was Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!)
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) AC motor/inverter power ratings
by Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Any useful parts from generators?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
12) Re: 200 miles highway range on flooded lead acid: Is it possible?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fans in parallel
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: g'bye Porsche
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) KillaCycle and Battery Boy
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Source for NiFe batteries (Was: Question about NIMH patent(s))
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Regen-ask a Prius owner
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Fans in parallel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
21) Re: EV safety
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Things that make you go Hmmm (was Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Regen-ask a Prius owner
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, the 192v buddy pairs were in WATTABMR..The Porsche was 20
Optimas in a single series-240v.
My real question now, is this peculiar to AGMs, or to Optimas or is this
something that could happen in any series pack?
I had a main disconnect breaker, and a mid-pack fuse, neither of which
seemed to slow down the self destruction. The breaker actually partially
melted, and I can't find the fuse in the wreckage.
Michael B.
Cor van de Water wrote:
Michael,
Very sorry to hear about your loss.
But indeed you have been spared a much worse fate...
I seem to recall you were using buddy-paired YTs.
(32 batteries in paralleled pairs, 16 x 12V = 192V series)
Could that have been an issue?
Normally if a car is not driven/charged, no current is
flowing unless one string/buddy pair is shorting out, then
the parallel battery/string suddenly does see a path to
send current!
No fuses of disconnects on >every< battery, so this is
typically an unlimited situation, where you will see
full short-circuit amps, typically around 3000, resulting
in up to 40 kW power production in one battery.
Not to mention the battery cable temp...
Frankly, with all the discussions we have about the twin
strings in the US Electricars getting very short battery
life, this is an additional and very serious reason to
avoid parallel battery configurations if they are not
individually managed/protected.
Sorry you had to find this failure in such a destructive test.
Blessings,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of michael bearden
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: g'bye Porsche
I tried to post this earlier today..don't know if it went through, so if
you've already seen/read this...sorry...
Hello EV’ers...it’s been a long time since I have been able to be a part
of this discussion list. I have been overwhelmed with demands on my time
since I left my career type job at the University in 2003, and have not
been able to keep up with routine e-mails, much less the traffic on the
EVDL. I have been having a great EV time though driving the slick 914
conversion that I bought from Brian Hall last year; a real attention
getter and conversation-starter…until last Sunday morning, when it was
the 5 AM wake up call for our rural neighborhood when it went up in
flames very spectacularly. This EV had a really nice custom fiberglass
body, and that stuff burned big time. On the side of “This is Bad, but
it could have been (much) Worse”, I had been having a problem with the
shift linkage and couldn’t get it into reverse, which is the only reason
it was parked OUTSIDE of the garage. Inside of the garage were two other
vehicles ( the Gogomobil and our Civic Hybrid) and every tool I own
(which is quite a few…If the Porsche had been inside, no one would have
known about the fire until the whole garage was totally involved. So,
give thanks where appropriate.
I had driven the EV Saturday, and charged it when I returned, thinking
that I was going to drive it Saturday night and Sunday morning, but then
plans changed, and I took another car Saturday night. So, it wasn’t
plugged in, and it wasn’t moving.
The arson investigator couldn’t find any cause for the fire, and I was
way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said that he had talked
to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers one other time this happened
to an EV with Optimas (which I had). One cell reversed, and turned into
a very hungry resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the EV.
This makes sense to me, since the origin of the fire that the
investigator pointed out to me was where the weakest two batteries were
(the next two to be replaced).
I have been working my way through the 32 YT’s that I salvaged out of
the wreck of WATTABMR in 2003, and they have been lasting nicely thanks
to Rich and Joes’ continued development of the regulator technology.
Anyway, thoughts on this: my garage/shop is separated from the house by
a pretty good distance…what if it was underneath living quarters (as
many garages are)?
Are AGMs uniquely susceptible to this, or is this a potential problem
for other types of batteries?
Michael B (accomplished Chef of Porsche Flambe’)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's more complexe.
because of static pressure fans in parallel won't always add their CFM
The rules are:
if you have high air circulation resistance (you blow through or out of a
box without easy air circulation)
use few fans in serie (one behind the other)
you have low air circulation (you blow through "free air" without obstacle
as blowing through fins of a large aluminium dissipator) put the fans in
parallel.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:04 PM
Subject: Fans in parallel
> So if 5 fans of 30cfm each are in aerodynamic parallel, so they add up
> to 150 cfm total? In other words, if 5 fans were connected to the same
> box, can they push 150 cfm thru it? I bet not, but wanted to see if
> someone has been there and done that.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do any of you use a generator with the PFC 30. It looks like a 5 kW +
generator would handle 30 amps at 156 output.
I see the issues with 400 V+ burning them.
besides that issue, are there any cleaner burning, mostly QUIET generator
that could easily be trailered or mounted in the bed of a pickup for range
extension?
the S10 truck would pull 15 kW for constant highway, so the range extension
wouldn't be permenant. any other thoughts on achieving such a high long
term draw as 15 kW and getting that power into the 144 Volt trojan pack?
that is even if the DCP 600 and Advanced 9" could even take (say 180 miles
of travel distance from Philadelphia to DC or Philly to NYC)
or other creative range extension for 180 miles (car has 50-60 miles on its
own). If I had range extension, i could let the gas car die and stay dead
:)
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had no problem getting the Clean Air decals for my (now totaled)
conversion. Drove to the DMV, the inspector verified that it was electric
by looking under the hood, I got the decals a month or so later.
However, the writings on decals faded away in less than 3 years. So, I
applied for replacements before we had the accident. The new decals arrived
after the accident. So, I have brand new decals with no car to put them on
:-(
On 5/19/06, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I applied last November for Clean Air Stickers on two cars a 1993 Honda
Civic VX & my Jet Electravan. I got the stickers for the Honda under the
then new Hybrid law. I have yet to get the Electravan stickers. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:43 PM
Subject: Kalifornia .... registering conversions
> After being shuttled from agency to agency and back I
> have found out that the state has made an agreement
> with the auto makers, that conversions cannot qualify
> for any Clean Air perks. Such as HOV lanes. Has anyone
> had any luck with this? Let me know what if any luck
> people have had in CA with this stuff. I'm trying to
> get the state to certify us a converters so people can
> save a trip to the referee station. It's also
> interesting trying to get people in these state
> agencies to grasp what we are doing. Sheesh!
>
>
> Gadget
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
> leftcoastconversions.com
>
--
Edward Ang
AIR Lab
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:59 PM 5/19/2006, you wrote:
I'd love to disect an original Edison battery. I think they were in
metal cans?
It's clear that the energy density is not as good as lead acid, but
then again, maybe that can be changed.
Mike
While the nominal or advertised capacity may not be as good, you can use a
lot more of it without damaging the battery.
As far as changing that, I do not think much development has been done with
nickel iron batteries since Edison, so there could be significant
improvements possible. By the way if I remember correctly for some reason
Edison and his crew numbered their experiments only up to 10,000 before
starting over with 1, and while developing the NiFe battery they rolled
over like 3 times.
With NiFe batteries habit of making gas and current the development of fuel
cells I wonder if it would be worth designing the batteries to separate the
H2 from the O2 and with a small compressor save the H2. Then on discharge
feed it to a small fuel cell. Or it may be better to keep the compressor
and H2 storage stationary at the charging station and just put another
battery or 2 in the vehicle. But that may be a complicated way of doing
what the NiMH battery does internally.
See-Ya Monday.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael-
Sorry to hear of your loss!
My mother's EV had a similar (key off, charger not plugged in)
unattended fire, and I believe that it may have been caused by the fact
that the person who converted the car used standard automotive bladed
fuses (typically rated for 32VDC) for the low current high voltage
(144VDC) accessories (DC-DC converter and ceramic heater). Luckily for
Mom, the car did not burn to the ground. Upon later inspection, it
appeared to me that when excessive current was drawn through one of
these fuses (perhaps from water-shorted DC-DC converter), it did not
fully open, but rather it arced and proceeded to burn the fuse block and
nearby wiring and wire insulation.
Is there a chance that low voltage rated fuses were used in a high
voltage application in your Porsche?
I don't tell this story to try to assign blame, but rather to educate
those on the list to the dangers of using the wrong fuses for high
voltage accessories.
cheers,
Andrew
michael bearden wrote:
Actually, the 192v buddy pairs were in WATTABMR..The Porsche was 20
Optimas in a single series-240v.
My real question now, is this peculiar to AGMs, or to Optimas or is this
something that could happen in any series pack?
I had a main disconnect breaker, and a mid-pack fuse, neither of which
seemed to slow down the self destruction. The breaker actually partially
melted, and I can't find the fuse in the wreckage.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been asked a question by a media corespondent: "Does anyone know
what is the longest range to date for an Electric Vehicle?"
I thought I'd run this by the EVDL and see if anyone else remembers any
notable range achievements to pass along.
These are my own quick recollections in just two categories:
Range per charge records...
Solectria Sunrise : ~350 miles (1996)
AC Propulsion : ~300 miles @ highway speeds (2003)
EV1 : ~140 miles (2000)
24 hour range record...
Mitsubishi FTO-EV prototype : 2000km (1250 miles) (1999 -
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?
dismode=article&artid=255)
Any thoughts on this? I don't care how long ago, how slow, how fast, or
how much money was spent. It's all good historical information as far
as I'm concerned.
Thanks,
-Dave
http://megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVen though my Currie scooter struggles to reach 20kmh on a good day, I
regularly see 40+kmh air as headwinds...
So I am still interested in aero re a "next gen" scooter, even at these
slower speeds!
Tks
Lock
Toronto
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If the car isn't driven much over 50kmh (30mph) aero improvements
> probably won't make much difference.
> Don
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: May 19, 2006 8:26 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Aerodynamics
>
> I'm sure every little bit helps. But what I think would tell me just
> how
> much aero resistance is costing, is to put a vehicle on a chassis
> dyno and
> use the onboard Emeter to see what the WH/mile is without wind as a
> factor.
> Then drive it on the road at the same speed. The difference would be
> mostly
> due to aero resistance. Then do the same thing with aero
> "improvements".
> This may generate more facts than lore
> ;)
>
> Mike
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 05/19/06 at 07:54 you wrote:
Damn! I hate it when I get the numbers wrong.
I was looking at a chart for monthly sales and reading it as anual
sales.
Sorry about that.
FWIW The H1 sold approx 12,000 total vehicles over a 14 year run,
averaging less than 1,000 per year (not total like I said).
Last year they sold 374 of them.
The 1,724 figure for the H2 was for Sept 05.
Still my basic point is still valid. I'm sure that if GM actually
offered
the EV1 it would easily out sell the H1 in it's best year, and
probably
the cheaper H2. FWIW the H1 goes for approx $135,000. I'd even be
willing to bet that the first year sales of the EV1 would out sell the
entire run of H1s.
If your basic point is your assertion that markets should work the way
you say they should work, I would say that is a fact not in evidence.
You already noted some very important things. 1 - the Hummer H1 sells
for $135,000. Consider that a base HMMMVW is sold to the government for
about $40,000, you can put in A/C, leather seats, a nice stereo, chrome
wheels, and STILL have a fat piece of profit. The R&D and tooling costs
are negligible - they were already paid for. 2 - the Hummer sales
declined to 374 - and GM killed the program - even though they were each
likely sold at a substantial profit.
The H2 sells for >$50k. It is essentially a Chevy Tahoe underneath,
with all the heavy duty items off the shelf from the GM parts bin. GM
can hang sheetmetal on a ladder frame for (comparatively) next to
nothing. Each H2 is sold at a substantial profit. Though at some
point, with declining sales, it too will be killed. GM is thinking
about killing the Hummer brand altogether.
So you are *sure* that if the EV1 were offered for sale that it would
outsell the H1. At what pricepoint? $10,000? $50,000? $135,000?
How many Tangoes and T-zeros have been sold? At what price? What would
you be willing to pay for an EV1?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor said this about small AC systems:
72-160V, 325A battery amps if I recall. Yes, DC-DC converter is
included. Power is small, it's meant for compact cars and European
mentality, so I don't expect to sell very many.
This suggests over 40 kW for a 144 volt system. Would this be continuous
or peak power? As I understand it, with a DC motor and something like a
Zilla, you can get high short-term power by setting the controller to let
you run the motor past its continuous rating. Do AC setups work this way,
or does the controller only put out as much as the motor can handle
continuously?
thanks,
Steve Gaarder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great question, Ryan.
Surprised there were so few replys.
Warfield Electric is a rebuilder here in the Chicago area and I believe they
assemble the parts.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I noticed one of these the other day:
>
> http://www.kohlerpowersystems.com/onsite/onsite_diesel_all.html
>
> Is that an 11" or 13" motor in that picture?
>
> I imagine these large generator motors are more common and plentiful
> then large forklift motors? Could these housings and armatures, ect,
> be of use to us as a source of parts?
>
> Does Warfield Electric manufacture anything? Who exactly makes the
> motor housings, field coils, DE/CE ends, armatures, etc? Who
> currently makes these parts new?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the Red Beastie concept could be improved on a little, but
should it be? I think Beastie was an interesting demonstration
of what can be accomplished by stuffing more batteries into a
pickup truck. It isn't a practical electric vehicle. As I recall, it
weighed 5300 lbs without occupants or payload. Of what use
is a pickup truck that is already 1000 lbs overloaded before
adding occupants or payload?
I wonder if anyone has built a copy of Beastie or if she's one of
a kind?
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: 200 miles highway range on flooded lead acid: Is it possible?
Most here are familiar with Dick Finley's "Red Beastie", a
converted Toyota XTraCab that is loaded with 40 Trojan T105
golf cart batteries and gets 120 miles highway range(At
roughly 60 mph).
But I think it is time to expand upon this concept. I don't
feel the long range 'lead sled' concept has seen its full
potential.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds about right. I suppose that's why blowers were invented.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's more complexe.
>
> because of static pressure fans in parallel won't always add their CFM
> The rules are:
>
> if you have high air circulation resistance (you blow through or
out of a
> box without easy air circulation)
> use few fans in serie (one behind the other)
>
> you have low air circulation (you blow through "free air" without
obstacle
> as blowing through fins of a large aluminium dissipator) put the fans in
> parallel.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:04 PM
> Subject: Fans in parallel
>
>
> > So if 5 fans of 30cfm each are in aerodynamic parallel, so they add up
> > to 150 cfm total? In other words, if 5 fans were connected to the same
> > box, can they push 150 cfm thru it? I bet not, but wanted to see if
> > someone has been there and done that.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
michael bearden wrote:
> I was way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said
> that he had talked to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers
> one other time this happened to an EV with Optimas (which I
> had). One cell reversed, and turned into a very hungry
> resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the EV.
This sounds like a possibility, but only if there was some path for
current to flow through the failed cell, and a source of voltage to
force the current to flow.
In a buddy-pair setup, the good battery will discharge into the its
lower voltage partner in the event that a cell fails shorted or
reversed.
In a setup with paralleled strings, the higher voltage string will
discharge into the lower voltage string should a cell fail shorted or
reversed in one string.
In a single string pack, there shouldn't be any source of voltage to
send current through the shorted/reversed cell unless the car is on
charge.
The only way that an internal battery failure could have resulted in
your fire is if an Optima somehow failed internally such that the
remaining cells in the battery were able to discharge through this
internal resistance and cause localised heating sufficient to ignite
some combustible materials; a simple shorted or reversed cell would not
do it.
I hesitate to say it, but another possibility is that the failure was
*external* to the batteries. You mention that you were using regs, and
that the fire appeared to have started near a couple of the weakest
batteries. Regs could provide a possible path through which a battery
could drive sufficient current to cause a fire if conditions were right.
If a battery/cell failed *open*, and there was some load connected
across the pack (dc/dc, or possibly even an inactive charger, depending
on its design) to provide a path for current to flow, then that
battery's reg would be subjected to full pack voltage, and if not
appropriately fused this could result in enough power dissipation in the
reg to start a fire. Regs also do not take well to exposure to the
elements, and your car was parked outside. It could be one of those
situations where the failure actually occurred during charge; something
got hot enough to start some flammable materials smoldering, but it
wasn't until hours later that things got fanned into full blaze...
It seems at least as likely as the failed cell theory, especially since
with your single string setup a cell failure should just have left you
with a pack voltage 2V or 4V lower than expected.
Cells failing shorted is certainly not unique to Optimas; it is a
possible failure mechanism for any lead acid battery, and for
cylindrical Li cells. I've never heard of a cell spontaneously
reversing, though cell reversal during discharge is certainly a
possibility for any lead acid battery.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About an hour ago I got a call from Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins, who's
made his way back into Ohio, where he'll meet up with the Buckeye
Bullet Team at Ohio State University tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow the
world's fastest electric car will meet the world's quickest electric
motorcycle! How cool is that?
Hawkins said the A123-powered KillaCycle lived the good life at the
AABC event held at the Renaissance Harborplace Hotel in Baltimore. The
bike would have drawn plenty of attention no matter where it was
exhibited, but A123 parked it front and center in the most prominent
display at the event.
Last I heard, Battery Boy's AC inverter died a smokey death and he
mentioned something about picking through that slick black motorcycle
for repair parts.
Just kidding, Bill! :^)
Cheers,
-Dave
http://megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm .. the more I look the more they seem to be an alternative to lead
acid floodies. I assume they do have some kind of 'peukert' constant ?
Meaning that if you discharge harder, they lose available energy?
Has anybody looked at how much current could be drawn?
Michaela
> Here is one source.
>
> http://www.beutilityfree.com/batteryNiFe/FAQNIFE.html
>
> I think a few of the drawbacks are initial cost, low efficiency, high self
> discharge and low current. But they do last nearly forever.
>
> Chet
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> So why are they not being made anymore? They sure have great specs.
>> Thanks for the links!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > At 11:14 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote:
>> > >Are there any of Edisons old batterys around? It would be great to
>> > >check one out.
>> > >
>> > >Mike
>> >
>> > They turn up now and then.
>> >
>> http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17205&highlight=Edison+battery
>> >
>> > You may check this out.
>> > http://home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
>> >
>> >
>> > __________
>> > Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 05/19/06 at 08:18 you wrote:
Ken Trough wrote:
> Toyota and the other automakers don't sell BEVs because they don't
want
> to sell BEVs, not because they cannot be made a profitable success.
Well said! Yes, it's an oversimplification; there are lots of other
reasons. But it's amazing how many reasons you can find for not doing
something if you don't want to do it.
--
Yeah! Evil car/oil/Walmart!!!
So, the car companies just do stuff to make money, except for this thing
that is absolutely guaranteed to make them money but they just refuse to
do it?
How does that work, exactly?
I mean, look at all the car companies that "didn't want" to build and
sell hybrids. Amazingly enough, they are now. Why, because some guys
in Sacramento told them to? No, because it is making money for Toyota.
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At 10:51 AM 19/05/06 -0500, John Westlund wrote:
Peak is not the same as nominal. ;)
I don't know any ACP cars that are running the monster 600+V
that would be needed for usable capacity. I don't know of
many EV-compatable components that are even usable at that
voltage level.
There is a Mini converted to an EV here (not on the road), using lead and
an industrial 3-phase drive. IIRC 43 x 12V lead acid batteries for 516
nominal, but he did no research and the batteries died after 5000km - the
salesman told him "the batteries are self regulating" (yes, VRLA - not the
same thing at all). He just sat the string across the drives' buss and let
the peak voltage of the 3-phase rectified 415VAC. The car goes OK, although
because the motor is a 415V 3-phase model he runs out of ability to deliver
power (accelerate) at around 60Hz. The feel of the car sounds much like
Peter Perkins description of "cruise control always on".
But would NiMh lend itself to this sort of treatment? String full voltage
being a little higher than the rectified 3-phase power, use an AH counter
to drop out the line conactor when 95% of Ah have been returned?
Just my 0.02
Regards
[Technik] James
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How would that work out when part of the energy in the pack is being
used/generated just to alter the gear ratio? Does it know to only count
the energy from brakeing?(simulated compression brakeing too)
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Yeah it probably won't add up to what you'd think, but I like using
multiple fans for reliability purposes. You'll lose some CFMs because
of leakage around the bad one, but it'll keep moving some air. And of
course anything critical should have a temperature monitor.
Brad Baylor
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Yeah, and it can roll off jackstands, also, even on flat ground. If room
permits, I always slide the (removed) tires under the chassis. That way, if
it rolls, there's still something to catch it from landing on the ground.
(It's a bear getting a car, lying on its belly, back up on jacks.)
I did that once with a car, years ago. I'd forgotten to re-chock the wheels.
(It pushed the chocks out of the way, once it was rolling.) I figured it was
safe on jackstands, in the flat garage. It came to rest just 2" from mom and
dad's washer/drier... me dragging backwards on the bumper screaming. (Not
much traction on those slick floors. My parents came running, then just left
shaking their heads, when I explained.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: EV safety
> One of my co-workers told me about her brother's girlfriend. She was
sitting
> on the curb, doing the brakes on her Suburu, legs under the car. She had
the
> car on a jack (No stands, although she has some) and had the wheel and
tyre
> under the car, but sitting on the curb allowed the falling car to break
her
> shin-bone, just under the kneecap. Ouch.
>
> David C Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
> "The Bush administration's priorities are
> "a little bit different now and veterans aren't a priority,"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: EV safety
>
>
> > As it happens, I was talking about this today at work. I ended up
> > recanting an episode I will never forget. ( from when I was yueng and
> > stupid, now I am a lot older...)
> >
> > I was just doing brakes on 1 front wheel and was using one of those
> > bottle jacks on the street in front of my house. I was sitting on the
> > ground with legs on either side of wheel, figuring this was a truck
> > anyway and even if the jack failed I would be OK. Well I was lucky.
> > I was fighting and tugging on a stuck part and the little bottle jack
> > had impressed into the old blacktop, it came flying out and down came
> > the truck. I moved, but not before the backing plate came to rest on the
> > leg of my jeans.
> >
> > Try as I might, I couldn't reach the jack, it really flew. Eventually I
> > had to just give up, wriggle out of my pants and run into the house in
> > my underware. There must of been 25 kids in the b-day party accross the
> > street front yard, luckly, none noticed the redfaced man without any
> > pants running into the house.
> >
> > I have found that a 4000Lb EV is difficult to jack up and put on jack
> > stands on even a slightly sloped driveway. the emergancy brake is only
> > on the rear wheels and it likes to roll back on the floor jack. (Why
> > isnt there a wheel lock on a floor jack, why not an emergancy brake on
> > front right/rear left wheel.) I cringe everytime I have to do it.
> >
>
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You have a good point on H1 sales... but at $130K each, it doesn't take a
large volume to make for a production run. At 4,000 H1 & H2 sales a month
(their peak last year), I'm not sure the EV1 could make the same profit
margin. (It's unclear, but I think the 4K figure was US sales, not
international.) Now, if folks were willing to plop down $100K each unit, GM
would probably bring them back. <g>
The EV1 is going to be one of "those" cars that go down in legend, like the
Tucker... its legend outstripping its actual performance. We'd have known
for sure, if GM would have opened their sales across the country. I guess
money in NASCAR is more of an incentive to buyers than money in
revolutionary vehicles these days. It certainly attracts more buyers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Things that make you go Hmmm (was Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!)
> FWIW The H1 sold approx 12,000 total vehicles over a 14 year run,
> averaging less than 1,000 per year (not total like I said).
> Last year they sold 374 of them.
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I've been following your posts on Regen. Please elaborate. If you can go a
mile on 200wHs of juice, then you are getting around 100MPG?
I'm not following. How do you know that that represents 20% of your power
back through regen?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:57 AM
Subject: RE: Regen-ask a Prius owner
> Why didn't I think of that! I have a Prius and on a typical 12 mile
commute I
> get about 8 to 12 'little green leaves'. Each leaf represents 50wh so that
> makes 400 to 600 wHs of regen. That's about 2 to 3 miles. Right around
20%.
>
> YMMV
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I'd like to hear more, Juergen. I was thinking of something similar w/ the
spare C-Lyte motor I had. My problem was voltage. They'd allow 2 batts, when
I was looking at the rigs, but that was several years ago. I was one of the
fairly early adopters of this motor and, despite lots of probs, did manage
to get a bike assembled, albeit at a high cost.
Which motor did you use? What range/speed did you get on your run? What
battery set?
W/ the 400/500W motor, I manage to get about 25/20 out of the rig, on 800W
from the wall... somewhere around 850-1100MPG equivalency... w/o pedaling.
That's on 4 "old/new" Hawker 13S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juergen Weichert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
> I used this configuration last year in my first ever Electrathon entry
> and came in third overall. I used a Crystalyte hub motor in the front
> wheel and it handled great. A weak battery pack (my fault) kept us from
> winning speeds unfortunately. This year it will be different! ;-)
> J
>
> p.s. we had lots of juice left at the end of the run but not quite
> enough voltage during the run for top speeds due to two sagging
> batteries in the string - again my fault - didn't leave enough time for
> testing prior to the event.
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I disagree about efficiency podium !
Gates GT2 Belt and similar like Contitech synchropower with 98% have better
efficiency than chain which can't pass 95%... for racing, type without
o-ring, well lubrificated, new, good tensionning force etc .
Let me know about a chain (oring is worst) which is 98% efficient, ...and
still 98% efficient all is time life ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <ListServ@electricmotorcycles.net>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
> This note is primarily a response to Mike Phillips question related to
drive
> types for a donor EV motorcycle. Most of the posts here have hit well on
the
> characteristics of belt or chain or shaft type final drives for 2 wheeled
> applications. I just wanted to touch on some of the other points in a bit
more
> comprehensive evaluation.
>
> Efficiency in order best to worst
> 1) chain
> 2) belt (in this case I am referring to a toothed synchronous type like
> Gates Poly Chain GT2)
> 3) shaft
>
> Please note that drive chains come in two basic types, industrial and
> "O-Ring". Modern motorcycle applications all use the o-ring type that
seals a small
> reserve of oil to allow a longer wearing chain with less attention to
> maintenance. O-Ring types do reduce efficiency compared to industrial
types. Over
> the past few years manufacturers have created things like X-Rings to
address
> the efficiency loss issue.
>
> Weight in order lightest to heaviest
> 1) belt (aluminum cogged pulleys, kevlar fiber reinforced toothed belt)
> 2) chain
> 3) shaft
>
> Most people do not realize that in a typical motorcycle application the
> chain and sprockets are fairly heavy. This is why you see aluminum
sprockets and
> slotted chain side plates used in racing applications. On my 750cc Suzuki
ICE
> street bike (all steel) a 14t front sprocket, 41t rear, and 96 links of
#630
> chain weigh ~12 pounds.
>
> Noise in order of quietest to noisiest
> 1) belt
> 2) shaft
> 3) chain
>
> My Kawasaki Ninja EV uses a std. motorcycle type #525 chain drive. Once
the
> ICE is gone the noise of the drive chain is really LOUD. This is true on
> every EV motorcycle I have ridden. The noise is enough to be really
annoying even
> when wearing a full coverage helmet. Of course this helps in parking lots
as
> people can hear me coming and I don't scare my neighbors. I have to admit
> that I lust after a quiet belt drive.
>
> Handling
> Note that the shaft drive has an unusual behavior under hard acceleration
> like exiting a corner. I think of the shaft drive as much like the ring
and
> pinion gears in the rear end of a rear drive car. This may not be
completely
> accurate for a motorcycle, but bear with me. When accelerating hard the
ring
> gear attempts to climb the pinion causing the rear seat of the motorcycle
to
> rise instead of the expected squatting behavior. This feels funny to most
riders
> the first time they are on a shaft drive bike. The short story is that you
> get used to it and modern motorcycles have attempted to minimize this
behavior.
>
> Durability most to least
> 1) shaft
> 2) chain
> 3) Belt
>
> The average well maintained O-Ring type chain should last well over 15,000
> miles which might be 8 to 10 years on the average EV motorcycle. The
downside
> is that periodic adjustments ~ every 1,000 miles are required to
accommodate
> for the chain stretching and of course there is some throw off of the oil
used
> to lubricate the chain. The oil throw off on my rear wheel and electric
> motor really offends my EV sensibility.
>
> Also note that riders may want to factor in their riding conditions before
> choosing a belt drive. Small rocks form dirt, gravel, or even a freshly
coated
> blacktop rock chip type surface can tear the crap out of belt quickly
> causing complete failure while driving.
>
> Cost cheapest to most expensive
> 1) chain
> 2) belt
> 3) shaft
>
> A good chain set up costs $150 to $200 including replacing the sprockets.
>
> Conclusions
> - I really don't mind the maint. associated with a chain drive, but the
> weight, noise and mess are unpleasant. Cost and availability of modular
> replacement parts is also an advantage.
> - I recognize that a shaft drive does offer quiet operation with no mess,
> little maint. and great durability at the expense of weight and handling.
>
> - However I believe that the ideal drive for an EV motorcycle is a
> synchronous belt drive. The benefits are no messy oil, light weight and
quiet
> operation. The downside is cost, potential durability issues and
maintenance to
> adjust for belt stretch.
>
> Mike Bachand
> DEVC
> Colorado
>
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Mike: I agree with all you've said, but I'm surprised that you think belt
drive is quieter than shaft.
While I agree it's quieter than even a freshly lubed/adjusted chain, I'd
think shaft would be quieter yet. The Gates belt I used made a fair amount
of noise, most of it trapped in the cab with me. <G> Still, it was enough to
turn heads. (It was kewel sounding, though... accentuating the motor hum.)
Granted, it was kept fairly tight, due to a design flaw. (Of course, our
equipment was no guide... those belts were pretty noisy due to the high
loads and their oversized nature.)
I've owned only one shaft driven bike, but don't recall hearing any noise
from the shaft.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <ListServ@electricmotorcycles.net>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
> Noise in order of quietest to noisiest
> 1) belt
> 2) shaft
> 3) chain
>
> My Kawasaki Ninja EV uses a std. motorcycle type #525 chain drive. Once
the
> ICE is gone the noise of the drive chain is really LOUD. This is true on
> every EV motorcycle I have ridden. The noise is enough to be really
annoying even
> when wearing a full coverage helmet. Of course this helps in parking lots
as
> people can hear me coming and I don't scare my neighbors. I have to admit
> that I lust after a quiet belt drive.
>
> Mike Bachand
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