EV Digest 5537
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Prius AC inverter info
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Prius AC inverter info
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: battery suggestions
by 4buyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Zilla DAQ values
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) White Zombie and Father Time Machine racing at PIR this coming SATURDAY
night, June 3rd
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Range/Capacity Check
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Zilla DAQ values
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Prius AC inverter info
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Zilla DAQ values
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range/Capacity Check
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: White Zombie and Father Time Machine racing at PIR this comin
g SATURDAY night, June 3rd
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Range/Capacity Check
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: OT: Need help identifiying LED sign
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: OT: Need help identifiying LED sign
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: OT: Need help identifiying LED sign
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) PiPrius ...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Mk3 Regs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Don Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Flooded battery isolation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Note that lack of glow does not mean they are not working. Look at my
specs; they would start regging at 14 or so. Nice and smooth ramp-up.
If you're using 6.2's, I would strongly suggest you get a meter and test
the current draws. The last thing you would want is your reg to be
conducting at 12.5 volts and discharge your battery while it sits there.
On mine, they draw zero ma current at 13 volts.
Nice idea on the double regs; if I had the space in the Prizm for the
lugs I would probably do that. But technically I am running two sets of
regs since I have 2 strings of batteries and each string is only 26ah in
size.
Chris
Steve Condie wrote:
Just another word on Lee's Z-Regs -- I made up a set of 13 for my truck using
6.8 zeners on both ends. They work fine, but they don't even start to glow
until about 14.6V, and since I've got AGMs (UB121100's) I want to keep my
charging voltage below 15 volts. So I decided to get a bunch of 6.2 volt
zeners, to lower the activation point to where I'll get more regulation during
my regular charging process. After reading the 6 volt design I got the bright
idea to use all 26 of my 6.8's, add a 6.2 on both ends, (with the 6.2 on one
end wired in series with the 6.8 at the other) and another bulb in the middle.
This should give me up to a full amp of shunted charge per battery, with the
regulation starting at around 14 volts. Also the redundancy will help
reliability, and a broken regulator should be easy to spot. Finding room for
the lugs would be a problem, so I think I'm gonna just flatten some copper pipe
with the 6.2 zener wires in the smashed end and drill them out
for the lugs. I figure that will drive the material cost up into the $2-3 per
battery range, with the biggest hit coming from the light bulbs.
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I got it...
Lee wrote later -"It's just a backup system. Someday the bulb may burn out or get
broken.The resistor means you don't lose *all* regulation."
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush"
To:
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Lee's regs in action
Chris,
You added some film resistors on to the balancers. What was your reason for
doing so?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Chris wrote -
Where did you buy the 5 watt zinors ?
Mouser. Here is a list of the parts I bought:
660-MF1/2DLT52R10R0F MF1/2DLT52R10R0F KOA Speer 1/2Watt Metal
Film Resistors
10ohms 1% 100PPM 60 $0.090 $5.40 60 Shipped
4/24/2006
27718023
Chris
---------------------------------
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just re-read your email; using a pair of 6.8's probably would set the
reg point too high for AGMs. I used a 6.8 and a 6.2 on each string. I
would not use a pair of 6.2's; that would set the reg point below 13
volts and discharge le battery.
Chris
Steve Condie wrote:
Just another word on Lee's Z-Regs -- I made up a set of 13 for my truck using
6.8 zeners on both ends. They work fine, but they don't even start to glow
until about 14.6V, and since I've got AGMs (UB121100's) I want to keep my
charging voltage below 15 volts. So I decided to get a bunch of 6.2 volt
zeners, to lower the activation point to where I'll get more regulation during
my regular charging process. After reading the 6 volt design I got the bright
idea to use all 26 of my 6.8's, add a 6.2 on both ends, (with the 6.2 on one
end wired in series with the 6.8 at the other) and another bulb in the middle.
This should give me up to a full amp of shunted charge per battery, with the
regulation starting at around 14 volts. Also the redundancy will help
reliability, and a broken regulator should be easy to spot. Finding room for
the lugs would be a problem, so I think I'm gonna just flatten some copper pipe
with the 6.2 zener wires in the smashed end and drill them out
for the lugs. I figure that will drive the material cost up into the $2-3 per
battery range, with the biggest hit coming from the light bulbs.
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I got it...
Lee wrote later -"It's just a backup system. Someday the bulb may burn out or get
broken.The resistor means you don't lose *all* regulation."
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush"
To:
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Lee's regs in action
Chris,
You added some film resistors on to the balancers. What was your reason for
doing so?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Chris wrote -
Where did you buy the 5 watt zinors ?
Mouser. Here is a list of the parts I bought:
660-MF1/2DLT52R10R0F MF1/2DLT52R10R0F KOA Speer 1/2Watt Metal
Film Resistors
10ohms 1% 100PPM 60 $0.090 $5.40 60 Shipped
4/24/2006
27718023
Chris
---------------------------------
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do. US Electricar Prizms used a 1hp-ish 300 volt BLDC motor with a
really weird little controller direct-coupled to a sanden rotary compressor.
It really works *WELL*, however there is something to think about: Heat.
That AC system is going to put a lot of heat under your hood. If you
have a water cooled system it is going to add to the heat load as well.
I have one fan on the radiator, and this week it's been 95 degrees here
in MD. The water temps in the Prizm's Dolphin have gone from sitting at
the bottom of the gauge to about halfway up the gauge (rather warm).
Chris
Peter Shabino wrote:
Long term I was going to run my AC off the traction motor as well. How
may people have a seperate motor driving the compressor? Also has any
one found a small hermetic compressor that runs on DC already on the
market? (thinking maybe out of a RV fridge).
Later,
Wire
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Prius AC inverter info
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:48:25 -0400
On Tue, 30 May 2006 06:19:30 -0700, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/121813.pdf
>
>on page 12 it states that there is a seperate inverter for the AC, the
>desno aununcment says there is an integrated inverter in the compressor.
>
>If this is a permenent magnet brushless motor, maybe a simple six-step
>control would be suffient.
>
>I am in need of AC on my car, but I have put batteries where the
>condensor was so it is gonna take some work. I was wondering about a
>couple of enhancements.
> I have heard that the clutches take a lot of 12V power and was
>wondering if a hot gas bypass valve would be better.
No. A typical AC clutch draws less than 2 amps, usually less than one
amp. Even on bypass, an operating compressor consumes considerable
power.
> I would remove the belt for winter or have an otherwise mechanical
>disconnect and then cycle the gas valve during the season.
>
> Would an AC system work with excess charge and an accumulator if we
>went back to an expansion valve.
> IE brakeing during summer activates AC compressor and pumps into
>accumulator
> braking in excess of accumulator's capacity causes bypass valve to
>open
> System runs off accumulator while stopped at light
> While cruising, compressor always turns, but gas bypass loads and
>unloads it.
You'd need a suction accumulator to do what you want if I understand
it correctly. The main problem will be that there will be
insufficient pumping capacity to both cool and pump down the
accumulator. In fact, I think you'll find that a compressor driven
from the traction motor to be quite unsatisfactory. The time when you
need high capacity the most - stop-and-go traffic - is the time when
the traction motor is turning the least.
Unless you want to go with the BLDC type hermetic compressor, the only
reasonable solution I see is to drive a conventional compressor with a
DC motor. Surplus PM motors are cheaply available. Do I recall your
pack as being 144 volts? Ninety through 240vdc small HP motors are as
common as dirt because so many are used in industry. Two-three HP
would be a good place to start looking.
>
> Peltiers are out, they are very ineffient. but has anyone looked into
>magnetic refridgeration? http://physorg.com/news64851465.html
What's to look at? For us end-users, this is little more than a
curiosity.
>This has been around for a while and is not pseudo science, it just
>wasn't practical for the temperature range we needed until recently.
>Although cooling in a car has been suggested as a ring of this material
>that moves thru a permenent magnetic field and has a working fluid that
>transfers the heat from the cabin then to a radiator, i think if we just
>used 2 blocks of the material and solenoid valves to swap, one block in
>regen one in absorbtion (electromagnetic)we might be able to make a home
>brew version. Anyone know where to get the material(gadolinium)
Sure. How much money you got? Gadolinium makes gold and platinum
look like scrap metals.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice to know AC clutch doesn't use much, but I wouldn't need it if I
have an AUX motor I guess.
Why couldn't I have an accumulator(nitrogen bladder style) in the liqued
high pressure side. Using a electric bypass valve to open into the
acumulator when hitting the hi pressure switch that normally cycles the
clutch. A second high-pressure cutout set a little higher or in the
accumulator would cut out the compressor when the whole high pressure
system is full. This would be sized to last a few minutes. Right now we
just use the lines as such an accumulator. This of course would be in
the liqued part of the system! so the real issue would be if we wanted
to use it as a form of recapturing braking energy the condensor size is
the limit. Unless we built a 3 pressure system. I can see we would need
a suction accumulator also, maybe just an expansion area otherwise we
would start to saturate the low pressure side, loose cooling, and
hydraulic the compressor. :-(
Ok, so this doesn't seem worth it unless it can be done really simple
like spring loaded pressure relief valve into the accumulators on both
sides and checkvalves the other way.
I didn't know about the price of Gadolinium. It looks like it is also
patent killed.
I like the idea of using the prius AC compressor, I have a 288V (to be
300V) pack. I would like to find out the amps, volts and frequency used
on that unit. Does anyone know if these cycle on and off or if they are
variable speed? That seems like it would be a good idea.
How much more efficient are the newer scroll compressors vs the older
vane and pistons, ie I have a 2000 GM scroll compressor in the garage
and I also have the nissan unit, it is 3X the size of the GM unit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
nothing, my replies were rejected since I had not registered, I don't know why
you got anything at all especially misdirected replies. hmmhmhmhm
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You replied to my message (Subject:
"Taperlock dilemma") with a reply
titled "Battery suggestions." Since this was a non sequitur, I asked
what batteries had to do with taperlocks. A quick check of the email
headers shows that your message references mine, as well as the
"Taperlock dilemma" thread.
My Message:
--------------------------
>Dave Cover wrote:
>> Suppose you had a brand new shiny taperlock hub. You waited a long
time to get it and were anxious
>> to install your motor to build your EV. But there was a problem. The
vendor drilled the holes
>> wrong so you cannot bolt your clutch to the hub.
>
>If this is _truly_ the vendor's mistake, take it back. It's
tantamount to your vendor providing you with the wrong part. You
shouldn't compromise you conversion because of someone else's screw-up.
--------------------------
Michael Perry wrote:
> And I'm also confused. Where did Taper Locks come in? The subject is battery
> suggestions.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Poulsen"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:03 AM
> Subject: Re: battery suggestions
>
>
>
>> I'm confused -- what does this have to do with taper locks?
>>
>> Michael Perry wrote:
>>
>>> I just pulled the McNair batts from my new Chinese (McCullough)
>>>
> lawnmower.
>
>>> Interesting that they were DOA, w/ apparently no warranty.
>>>
>>> I could use some advice as to what to put back in. These are
>>>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar, or anyone else who knows,
Q1: When observing the Zilla spewing data in DAQ4 mode I can watch the
temperature of the power head. Do the hex values translate numerically to
degrees Fahrenheit? or is there a conversion that needs to be done on the
values. My current (immediately present) reading 0x43 translates to 67
which is the temperature of my garage in Fahrenheit and the motor
compartment is at room temperature.
Q2: I read several posts back about the typical Pot Box input values for the
Hairball2 and was wondering what the typical values are for the HEPI? I
have an idle value of 0x3A and a full throttle value of 0xE2. It seems
that I don't see current start to flow until the accelerator input is around
0x51. This represents a very slight depression of the pedal. I read where
you stated the Pot Box input at full throttle input should be around 0x9F.
Does this mean the difference between 0x9F and my HEPI max of 0xE2 is wasted
throw on the pedal? This represents about half the pedals' throw.
Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I had posted:
The weather for late May in Portland has been very weird. It seems the
anti-EV vortex is still following me :-( This entire holiday weekend, it
has been almost winter-like, with highs barely cracking 50, when it's
normally in the high 70's in late May. It's been windy and raining like
crazy, too....the 7 day outlook is great with Friday and Saturday, June 2nd
and 3rd, forecast for mid 70's, sunny, and DRY.
Then this from Rich Rudman:
Uhhh Wayland... it's back.. they are calling for Rain from Thursday on...
We are not in the clear yet.
Though today is one of the prettiest this year so far...
Damn...here comes that Anti-EV Vortex again! Yes it's true, today's
weather was gorgeous in the high 70's, but they've also just changed the
forecast for Northwestern Oregon with more rain coming back for
Wednesday - Friday :-( They're also saying however, that Saturday will
be clear and warmer, then Sunday it cools back down with more rain!
Looks like Matt's going to upstage me again, because by the time the
gates open at PIR on Saturday, it will be 8:00 pm and the winding-down
of' 'The Power of DC'. Oh well....
So to all who thought they'd join us on Friday night....make that
Saturday night (fingers crossed).
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some results of my first day on my typical commute in the '88 Mitsu
MightyMax.
First though, some numbers to base an evaluation. My commute to work is 7
miles (14 miles RT). Roads are 45-50 mph secondary roads with maybe 24
potential stop lights or signs on the RT. I average catching about 16 of
the stops on the RT. Terrain is relatively flat with maybe 6 up/down (or
down/up) varitions of 40 feet. Over the last two years in my ICE vehicle I
do ~125 miles/week. Thats 14 miles for work and 11 miles on average for
errands. In my early calculations I estimated 300wh/mi for my Mitsubishi
pickup. For the 14 mile RT that equals 4.2KWh, for the 25 mile average that
equals 7.5KWh. I sized my batteries (voltage and AH capacity) to give me
50% S.O.C after the 25 miles. Batteries are 16 each Deka Intimidator's 9A31
with 100AH at 20hr Rate (~68 AH @ 1 Hr Rate). Truck weighs by my
calculations 4050 lbs.
Now the results:
Todays first commute seemed average with the 14 mile RT and 3 side trips for
errands for a total of 23.3 miles. Batteries (192V nominal) started the
morning at a resting voltage of 208.2 V which I assume is ~100%. Batteries
ended (after 2 hour rest) at 194.2V. This equals 12.14V per block which by
the charts I'm looking at puts them at 52% S.O.C. I take 48% of the 1 hour
capacity (about an hours worth of driving) of 68AH and get 32.6AH used.
32.6AH times the average voltage of 201.2V equals 6567WH. 6567Wh/23.3 miles
equals 282Wh/mi. Does this seem reasonable?
This is in 2WD with worn out Mud Terrain tires. I did a lot of coasting and
had to train myself not to instinctively push in the clutch at stops. The
best part is that if I add 10% to the 6567Wh used, I get 7223Wh. Which
means at 13 cents/KWH it will cost $0.94 in electricity to recharge. At
15mpg and $3/gal my ICE would have cost me $4.66 today. So I saved $3.72.
Multiply $3.72 by 260 (the number of days a year I drive) and I get a
savings of $967 annually if the price of gas and electricity stay the same.
If it weren't for the EV Grin it would take a federal tax incentive to
really make all this worth the effort.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did measurements on my battery pack and determined where the lines would
go on a dual needle meter. I used RS232 data out of an emeter. The battery
pack behaves just like Mark's meter is programmed. It should work. The
emeter data matches Mark's theory.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
> Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> Has anyone built one of these in genious meters by Mark
> Brueggemann? Looks rather interesting to me and may try my hand at
> it (after I get my truck on the road).
> http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
>
> Mike did you built Marks' meter? If you did give us a report.
> Thanks,
> Calvin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
> Q1: When observing the Zilla spewing data in DAQ4 mode I can watch the
> temperature of the power head. Do the hex values translate
> numerically to degrees Fahrenheit?
I snarfed this from a earlier post:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg05820.html
Claudio Natoli writes:
> Otmar has this as a lookup iirc, but I believe it works out to be:
>
> Temp (degC) = DAQ value * 0.575757... - 1.3
> My current (immediately present) reading 0x43 translates to 67
> which is the temperature of my garage in Fahrenheit and the motor
> compartment is at room temperature.
By the above formula, your 67 becomes 37.3degC, or 99.1degF.
I don't have a HEPI, and don't know whether the values are different without
it. Hopefully someone else can field this for you.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well there's also thermoacoustic refrigeration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_refrigeration
I heard about that years and years ago. I assume it's not as effective as CFC
compressors since nobody's making products based on it and there's no
requirement that it use Illudium Q36 or anything.
Really just looking at the problem, I would think that getting a 120v or 220v
compressor out of the biggest window unit you can find and just splicing it
into the original existing evaporator/expansion valve/condensor on your vehicle
would be the most effective thing. If your vehicle does not have such a system
then scrounging similar automotive A/C system parts would be the best bet. The
window unit's components are of course available but may not be an optimum size
for automotive use. You'd need some special electronics to drive that
compressor since its power demands are enormous. But it's still far more
realistic than Peltier/gadolinium/thermoacoustics. Hey, you could actually
build a voltage converter/inverter that did Variable Frequency Drive which
might help the compressor do some neat tricks, but it's not going to suddenly
halve the power consumption or anything.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Peltiers are out, they are very ineffient. but has anyone looked into
magnetic refridgeration? http://physorg.com/news64851465.html
This has been around for a while and is not pseudo science, it just
wasn't practical for the temperature range we needed until recently.
Although cooling in a car has been suggested as a ring of this material
that moves thru a permenent magnetic field and has a working fluid that
transfers the heat from the cabin then to a radiator, i think if we just
used 2 blocks of the material and solenoid valves to swap, one block in
regen one in absorbtion (electromagnetic)we might be able to make a home
brew version. Anyone know where to get the material(gadolinium)
http://www.ameslab.gov/final/News/2001rel/01magneticrefrig.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats what I'm thinking of trying to do with the data stream coming from my
controller.
That thing spits out data points at 10 times per second.
I'll dig into that once I get my cooling working.
Thanks much.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:18 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
I did measurements on my battery pack and determined where the lines would
go on a dual needle meter. I used RS232 data out of an emeter. The battery
pack behaves just like Mark's meter is programmed. It should work. The
emeter data matches Mark's theory.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: the Mark Brueggemann Meter
> Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> Has anyone built one of these in genious meters by Mark
> Brueggemann? Looks rather interesting to me and may try my hand at
> it (after I get my truck on the road).
> http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
>
> Mike did you built Marks' meter? If you did give us a report.
> Thanks,
> Calvin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(wipes eyes at 3am :) Again thanks Claudio. I gotta get better with my
searches. You just posted that earlier this month.
I have only been briefly watching the list. Has anyone gone further with
the previously mentioned Zilla DAQ graphing software?
Thanks again
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Zilla DAQ values
Claudio Natoli writes:
Hello Mike,
I snarfed this from a earlier post:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg05820.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 May 2006 at 21:58, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> I get a savings of $967 annually
> if the price of gas and electricity stay the same. If it weren't for the EV
> Grin it would take a federal tax incentive to really make all this worth the
> effort.
I'm confused. $967 per year isn't worth the effort? That's almost 10 grand
over 10 years. With reasonable care, your EV driveline should last that
long or longer.
In actuality though the savings will be less when you figure battery
amortization. In most cases this is the largest single cost of operating an
EV. If you use the most inexpensive (per mile) batteries and treat them
well, you can definitely beat the cost of an ICE, though I don't think it
will be by anything close to a grand a year.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
It's not that bad John;
PoDC doesn't happen until Sunday this year. So you've got Saturday Nite. Good
Luck! See if you can give Matt a
challenging target.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of John Wayland
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:59 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: White Zombie and Father Time Machine racing at PIR this coming
>> SATURDAY night, June 3rd
>>
>> Hello to All,
>>
>> I had posted:
>>
>> Looks like Matt's going to upstage me again, because by the time the gates
>> open at PIR on Saturday, it will be 8:00 pm and the winding-down of' 'The
>> Power of DC'. Oh well....
>>
>> So to all who thought they'd join us on Friday night....make that Saturday
>> night (fingers crossed).
>>
>> See Ya.......John Wayland
>>
>
>
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You do realize that you qualify for the federal tax credits, right?
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike & Paula Willmon
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:59 AM
snip
> If it weren't for the EV Grin it would take a federal tax incentive to
> really make all this worth the effort.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
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Send the image direct to my email address (wireb(at)hotmail(dot)com) vs the
list. They do not allow images on the list to keep bandwith down.
Thanks,
Wire
From: James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: OT: Need help identifiying LED sign
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:11:08 -0400
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Well my life has been Ryan's Prius.. and any others I can get my hands on..
It's been weeks now that I have spent my weekends hacking and wiring Prii.
Yesterday was no different.. Except that we got 30 miles of road time on it.
So.. progress is being made.
The kit efforts are coming along, the bent metal for the box should be here
this week, Hopefully tomorrow.
Ryan got his Canbuss unit back and we added it back into the car.. The charger
needs some control from the Can computer to keep the CCL and SOC within the
range that lets us run the best in EV mode or Stealth mode.
We tried to run with just the charger doing the Voltage Dither with the
charger's own Dumb as a BOX of Rocks controller. A half dozen timers setpoints
and voltage regulation circuits... is not very dumb... In fact it makes for a
simple analog computer. That's why we still use it! Any ways.. what we needed
was a peak of 242 volts and a restart at 228 volts.. The PFC charger's brains
can handle that without any Canbuss computer involved. We tested the idea and
it does work.. but the CCL which is the Prius's own track of how hard it can
regen at any given time just can't stay high with this programming, The engine
did start.. Bummer!.
Then we use relay #5 on the Canbuss computer, and programmed it to turn on the
charger at %60 SOC and off at %70 SOC. This got us a couple of miles of EV mode
running. But getting the circuits to work was a pain...Until I found a Loose
screw.. these always are fun... Then we had a relay #5 that actually did
something.
A word to the wise.. here..even with my charger unplugged... NO AC the charger
was NOT even power from the Add on Battery.. We had 45 volts of AC noise
between the CAN buss Ground and the Chassis of the PFC and the Prius... This is
LOTS of volts.. with every little current. The offending cable was tied to the
Can buss with about 10 feet of cable.. and the Can buss Relays are simple SpSt
contacts. So how the Noise was getting onto the cable is beyond me.. We think
it was from the Prius's 12 volt DC to DC. Clearly this messes up any hope of
using voltage level signaling. The grounds were just not going to come close.
The line was to be run into the PFC charger system using the Temp sensor on a
Mark2B Regulator. If you simple short or close the two pins you will get the
charger to shut down on about 1 second. Just the place to add a computer
controlled input. Yea...Right...simple... except for the ground loops and
Raises. So.. we found a Reed relay and then wired up a 12 volt !
feed that uses the House 12 volts and is switched through the Can buss relays
and that pulls in the relay that shorts the pins on the Reg...that is connected
to the Charger...but the Reg buss cables. A house of wires.. But... it worked.
This addition gave us enough control of the charging process to keep the
CCL high enough to allow continued running in EV mode.
With the voltage high and lows being set to 242 on the high side and with the
charger's timer set to 15 minutes.. so the charger has hang time once the
Hybrid battery gets full. Then when the SOC come up with the voltage held
high... the Can Buss computer shuts off the charger, until the SOC then drops
back to the low set %. This was the point that we kept adjusting to get more
and more run time.
We spent the morning messing with the relays and our stupidity..and loose
screws.. We got about 2.5 miles and many hours of sitting with the car on, but
not moving, Charged up... then went for a longer ride, and got 8 miles and a
good hard charge from 15 amps of 208. By the next late run at about 8 pm I had
the 30 amps of 240 cable strung out to the Prius... and a LARGE AC feed wired
into the Add on pack's wire bundle.. For some Madman level charging.. When you
actually get the Plug in pack drained....of course you wan to charge it as FAST
as you can... Of course is there any Other way?? With 32 amps of 230 flowing
into the PFC40H... we got with the charge program with some vengeance!! The
last charge cycle was 25 minutes... and we had more charger if we could have
cooled it better... most of the hot air was being recirculated inside of the
Prius's left rear quarter pannel.. it was quite warm to the touch!! Still we
managed to suck 28 grid amps for most of the cycle. With!
out any SOC meters on the addon pack.. we had to watch the batteries pretty
closely.. aka Ryan and Rich Regs..But it looks like we took on about 3.5Kwhr in
about 25 minutes. Not bad for the first real try at a decent fast charge
effort. I didn't reach for the nearest PFC50 and NO I did not cable in the 75K,
But that's still to come !!
While driving.. .it looks like a 30 amp power transfer is Adequate for in town
driving... and light running. 40 amps or more would be nice for doing highway
speeds. and Twice we could have used a LOT of regen to yank off a over charge
condition of the Hybrid pack. We could have gotten a little more out of the
system.. but all in all NOT too bad. We need to get the "Regen" mode working
and see if we can really effect the CCL when a fairly large regen event
happens. What happens is the Hybrid pack gets full since we are propping it up
with the charger, then we find a longer hill or a hard braking event, When the
Hybrid pack is already full, you have to use the main brakes.. and this is the
crime, by this time the add on pack is really getting hungry and could take a
couple of Kwhr...If we could move it that fast.
Most of our running was at over 100 mpg, we pegged at 255 mpg once or twice,
did a run that got us 180 mpg.. but adding up the runs and getting a solid trip
MPG was almost impossible with the meters we had.
But... clearly it was way over 100 mpg...How far over we don't know yet.
With a Lead Acid pack .. we have 30 miles in a day done electric..In a hybrid.
This would not be possible with a lower powered charger. Again I am pointing
out the facts..if you don't have a lot of capacity, then having a high speed
charger can make up for that. A 7200 watt charger is still LOTS cheaper than a
$40K Lion pack.. and it can give you the same or more real EV range.
Charge over night if you have to Charge as hard and fast as can, to get the
most from your equipment investment.
Ohyea.... we will have a AC line current meter available in our chargers
shortly. We can stuff it in there. But it's taking a Sheet metal up grade.It's
going into the PFC40H for hybrid conversions, where meters are in short supply.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
PiPrius Kit builder
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The Mk2B open thier fuse.. and actually live through the Event.
I did one with a 156 volt pack on Goldie. The fire goes out as soon as you
take your foot off the go pedal.
So... as bad as it seams I was rather impressed with the lack of
carnage.. Scared the Crap out of me.. But that's about it.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Mk3 Regs
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Listers...
> > Thursday night we had a successful test of the proto type MK3
Rudman regulators.
> >
> Rich,
>
> I've read a few comments about problems with regs (dunno if they were
> Rudman or what) failing badly when placed across full pack voltage
> because of an open battery / interconnect. Is there some sort of
> crowbar or other overvoltage protection circuit? IOW, what happens when
> you slap 180VDC across it?
>
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Unfortunatly we live in a "knee jerk" society where people only consider
these things during a crisis. the same fools who plopped down $50K for a gas
guzzling Imatation of a hummer are now whinning at the price of gas and
considering buying a hybrid car. Hybrids are nice, but have all the pitfalls
listed below PLUS a regen system to service/maintain also. As a 30 year
master mechanic I can agree that car manufactures are intentionally
overcomplicating the design of vehicles to not only increase service
opertunities, but exclude the shops that cant/wont buy the expensive
diagnostic tools needed to repair these cars, from working on them.
Example -- I am currently working on a 2001 chev impala, the interior lights
headlights and dash are all acting erraticly, the problem is the body control
module is bad, the dealer has plenty in stock ( guess why) BUT, I cant
install it because it has a one time only programmable chip that the VIN
needs to be entered into or it wont work. So now you can see that not only is
this a dealer only operation , but aslo you can not use a wrecking yard part
in the future!!!
Don Cook
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dealers
> make a LOT of money on repair and service of the very complex ICE
> designs. The designs are getting more and more complex, requiring more
> expensive repairs and greater profitability on parts and service for
> both the automaker and the dealers, not to mention the sheer complexity
> and the sheer number of parts means that there are many more
> opportunities to sell upgrade and aftermarket components.
>
> BEVs on the other hand have very few components comparably and require
> significantly less service, maintenance and repair. Dealers do not like
> this and neither do manufacturers.
>
> -Ken Trough
>
> It's all about how much money they make. Filters & oil alone could keep
> some dealers in the black. But it's not a bad bet that they'll make quite
> a
> bit on belts and other service. It's a system that must be broken if we
> are
> to get electric's. I say import from China and let the ICE automobile
> manufacturers twist in the wind. (Subaru & Mitsubishi seem to know this)
> They're setting up their own demise. Fix an old car to keep another from
> being produced. Nothing wrong with 90% of the bodys out there because they
>
> can be fixed by getting rid of the internal combustion engine. The source
> of 90% of their problems. Apologies to veggie oil cars, CNG, ethanol and
> Propane. The manufacturers hate these too because they prolong the live of
>
> the internal combustion engine. It's all about breaking it so "THEY" can
> fix it. Lawrence Rhodes...
>
>
Don Cook
707 539 5800
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Christopher Zach wrote:
> Kind of tough actually. I did the trick of "look for 0 voltage" and
> found a battery, but when I disconnect it the ground fault "moves" to
> somewhere else in the pack.
Then you have more than one path to ground.
In the extreme, you can disconnect all wires from the pack, and see if
you still get a voltage to chassis. Then split the pack in half, and
check each half-pack separately (remove the jumper that connects the
center two batteries in the pack).
With dirty floodeds, you may well find *every* battery has a leakage
path from each post to chassis!
> I wonder if I am chasing a capacitance shadow or something.
Capacitance doesn't carry any DC current. If it's a DC voltage (or
current), then it's not caused by capacitance.
> Is .6ma something to care about?
0.6ma is very low. The UL standard for medical equipment is 0.5ma max.
However, it would be good to know where it is, in case it gets worse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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