EV Digest 5583
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Basic Manual Charger Schematic
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ampabout ... 3kw genset
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) S10 conversion
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: newbie
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) glass topped coffin.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: glass topped coffin.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Bad boy parts - was - Basic Manual Charger Schematic
by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) FW: Zilla Data question
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: S10 conversion
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: S10 conversion
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Optimas and charging difficulties
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: glass topped coffin.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Basic Manual Charger Schematic
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Kostov and Tachometer
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:48 AM 21/06/06 -0700, Chet wrote:
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sounds like you need a variac charger of some form<snip>
Thanks James,
But I am unfortunately one of those people that (although I don't have alot of
money) has more money than time. I really don't have the time to go
'scrounging
around' hamfests, surplus houses, junk dealers, etc. even if I knew where to
find them. (Which would take even more time to find. ;-)
Although I may end up spending a bit more money I would like to just order the
parts from some online place and then build it in a couple (few?) evenings.
G'day Chet - and all
OK, here is one way you could go: find your local electrical wholesalers -
the type that your local electricians are buying from (find them in your
"yellow pages" phone book). Have a chat to them & see how clued up they
are. Alternatively your local motor rewind shop, electric forklift repair
shop or welding equipment repair shop. From one of them you may be able to
get everything needed at a good price, and local tech support. Beer is
often a good payment for time with the service guys.
OK, that quite possibly failed to find you a suitable variac. Ebay, Dogpile
(or search engine of your choice) look for a variac from on-line sources.
Try and find one reasonably close to you to keep the shipping costs down.
Once you have your variac, you can go back to your local welder or forklift
repair shop (if they seemed helpful) and they should be able to find you a
heatsink and a rectifier - maybe even an inductor and hook it to the variac
for you.
Go back to your electrical wholesaler and get an amp meter if you haven't
fallen across one in your travels. Get a reasonably good multimeter (in the
order of $100) if you haven't already. Use the multimeter to look at your
battery voltage whilst charging, wire the ammeter in between the variac and
the rectifier.
Let us know how you get on, what you are able to get and we can help you
with advice as to assembly, metering mounting, etc. Others on-list will
have done this before you, and may have drawings or photos of layout,
heatsink size etc.
A kit is a collection of bits someone has put together. For such a simple
thing as a variac charger, you will be able to get the bits yourself, and
be able to understand it readily. Other means (capacitor box, tapped
inductor etc) of low-cost chargers are harder to understand and get the
values right first go. Where are you? Someone local to you may be able to
help you with advice or parts.
I'm in Australia, so probably a bit far away for anything other than tech
support.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Jun 2006 at 15:40, bruce parmenter wrote:
> 19.5 mi driven @ 2.5 ah/mi = 48.75 ah down: @ 2.46 ah/mi the pack
> is ~ 48 ahs down
> 48 ahrs down - 36 ahrs = 12 ahrs put back into the pack from
> charging for 40 mins off genset
Let's see - 12ah == 0.3 gal == 4.8 miles (at 2.5 ah/mi)
Thus your fuel efficiency on this genset is about 16 mpg.
Do I recall that you have a 1985 Blazer? According to EPA, here are the fuel
efficiency figures for a 1985 Blazer with various factory drivelines. All are
in
MPG in city/highway format. MT means manual transmission. CA means
California emissions fitted.
4cyl, MT5 - 22/28
4cyl, MT4, CA - 22/24
6cyl, auto4 - 19/25
6cyl, auto4, CA - 19/25
As an aside, those look surprisingly respectable alongside typical figures for
today's SUVs, don't they? Anyway -
My guess is that your EV Blazer has about as much acceleration as a 4 cyl
ICE Blazer (please correct if wrong). Given the way EVs are used, I'm also
taking your ah/mi figure as equivalent to EPA city MPG.
Thus, your series hybrid entails a loss of only about 27% efficiency over a
roughly equivalent gas-only Blazer with 4-speed (though you haven't yet
tested it with the weight of the genset onboard).
Obviously, it's a significant loss in efficiency - but truthfully it's better
than I
expected.
Did I perform that analysis correctly?
dr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bill,
In this type of isolated grounding circuits, there is normally a ground
detection circuit, that detects if there is any ground conductors shorted to
chassic. If the ground conductors shorts to a metal chassic, then it turns off
the the AC input power either by a power circuit breaker or a AC magnetic
contactor.
If you charge outside on a wet surface, it is advisable to install a GFI system
or just leave the EV chassic grounded. Using a GFI causes me to clean
everything until the GFI unit works again.
100 percent of my charging is now inside a building on a non-conductive floor.
All live components are in a enclose non-conductive compartments and all covers
are close while charging.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Dennis<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
Roland Wiench wrote:
>If it's an on board charger that is a non-isolated type, it is best to
>install the charger inside a plastic or fiberglass enclosure.
>The charger body is only AC grounded and not the frame.
I've read these isolated vs. non-isolated threads so many times over the
years, I thought I understood, but I guess I was wrong.
So a PFC charger's case SHOULD NOT have any contact with the car's frame, is
that what Roland is saying? Therefore, the car's chassis is not grounded.
Barring any leakages, then, touching the chassis and any battery terminal
will not provide a path for current.
Touching a cell terminal and the charger's case WILL provide a path to
ground, and could thus be dangerous.
There could, however, be small leakages from things like brush dust in the
motor, or acid traces from PbA batteries, which might still provide a path
from traction pack to ground. If the traction pack is totally disconnected
from the controller/motor/etc. by means of two contactors, then dust in the
motor won't matter. So in this case, it's only leakages from the battery
pack & pack-to-contactor wiring that could possibly causes a leakage.
Since you're standing on the ground, however, there will always be a path
from a battery terminal to ground, because, well, it's the ground!
Have I stated it correctly? Did I miss anything?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> In this type of isolated grounding circuits, there is
> normally a ground detection circuit, that detects if there is
> any ground conductors shorted to chassic. If the ground
> conductors shorts to a metal chassic, then it turns off the
> the AC input power either by a power circuit breaker or a AC
> magnetic contactor.
What would be the benefit of isolating the charger chassis from the
vehicle chassis (i.e. allowing the vehicle chassis to remain unbonded
from the AC line earth/safety ground) that would justify adding the cost
and complexity of these additional safety interrupts?
Simply bonding the charger chassis (AC line earth) to the vehicle
chassis will ensure that if there is a short to the vehicle chassis, the
AC power will be interrupted by tripping the breaker on the charger or
outlet; no additional expense or complexity required.
> If you charge outside on a wet surface, it is advisable to
> install a GFI system or just leave the EV chassic grounded.
I would strongly suggest that if you are running a non-isolated charger
it is advisable to install a GFCI permanently between the charger and AC
input to the vehicle, whether you choose to bond the vehicle chassis to
earth ground or not. The GFCI will interrupt the AC input if there is
significant leakage between the pack and chassis (if earthed) or if a
conductive path is formed between earth ground and the battery back
through someone (even if the chassis is not earthed).
The key to remember here is that the *only* safeties present may be
those you specifically install. A PFCxx does not come equipped with a
GFCI or anything to interrupt the AC supply in the event of a
short/leakage between either output and the vehicle chassis (unless the
chassis is bonded to earth ground).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI All,
Thanks for all your replies.
IN particular, i would like to find out more about the actual electrical
path.
If you got a 240V AC mains, and then rectify it to DC via a bridge, smooth
it and then step it down to the required pack voltage, say 120 volts with
its negative terminal grounded to the chassis.
The casing of the charger is also metal and is earth relative to the AC
power points earth.
I still cannot see how touching the metal frame of the car while your
standing on concrete for exmaple can result in a zap. Can someone explain
this in terms of a electrical schematic please. I cannot see any conducting
paths that would make the chassis HOT.
Fair enough, i understand the danger of touching the positive terminal of
the 120 volt battery pack when its grounded to the vehicl'es chassis.
If it is not grounded to the chassis, the negative output of the battery
charger and the ground of the battery charger through its case will not form
a conduction path, assuming that its mounted on the vehicle with no way of
chassis to chassis (charger body to car body) connection.
Am i on the right track.
Cheers
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:41:49 -0700
Bill Dennis wrote:
> So a PFC charger's case SHOULD NOT have any contact with the
> car's frame, is that what Roland is saying?
I believe that is what Roland is saying, though I'm not sure I agree
with him.
It might be best to refer to these chargers as "non-isolated" rather
than "PFC"; some of us know that you are refering to a Manzanita Micro
PFCxx model charger, however, the term PFC on its own implies any power
factor corrected charger, some of which are isolated designs.
> Therefore, the car's chassis is not grounded.
> Barring any leakages, then, touching the chassis and any
> battery terminal will not provide a path for current.
Correct. However, in the event of a leakage path from the pack to the
vehicle chassis, touching the chassis and the ground *will* result in a
path for current; this could be the case for any unsuspecting bystander
who touches something conductive on your EV's exterior while standing in
a puddle, etc.
In the worst case this leakage path could be a dead short from a battery
cable to the vehicle chassis. This would connect the AC line directly
to the chassis and prevent an extreme shock hazard which the charger
could not do anything about since not bonding its case to the vehicle
chassis will prevent any fuse or breaker from tripping in the event of
this sort of fault.
I think you have listed the other shock possibilities accurately.
Cheers,
Roger.
_________________________________________________________________
realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property
http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All -
Okay, this is sort of a lazy question, but is there a difference between the
Chevy S10 and the GMC Sonoma?? Will the S10 adapter, etc, work on the
Sonoma - ergo, do they have the same engine/tranny setups??
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what I have read, 32 miles to work is fun but doable. It probably
requires floddies (6V golf cart batteries) this works out well with a
truck and will simplify the chargeing.
Hey where are you that the community college builds EV's !!!??
What kind of miles are these 32 miles? highway, rural, hills
What kind of fuel milage did that truck get when it was a gasser? Is it
a heavy vehicle?> #121 int he album seems to indicate that it weighs
3700 without batteries, that can't be right.
The infamous "red beastie" http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/37 was only
5200 and it 2480 lbs in batteries, but 120Miles range!
If you can't charge at work, then this will be a challenge.
Look through the album and see what may be close.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
some math assuming 350wh/mile , Some of the more experianced EV'rs are
invited to correct me, I am working on my estimating skills. :-)
32miles = 11.2KWh/ 68miles = 22.4KWh
*1.20 to allow max of 80% discharge
13.4KWh or 26.8Kwh
Orbitals @1 hr rate 34ah and 12 V or 408wh
32 orbitals or 68 orbitals MINIMUM when new. about 1 mile/orbital.
1280/2560 Lbs and 32 * $45 in regs. $98/battery = $$4576+
t-105's assuming 1hr of 126AH * 6V = 756wh each
17 and 34 Minimum
this is 102V, too low for highway use only 1054lbs of lead
34 is 204V, good. 2108Lbs and about $68 each = 2312, no regs, simpler
charger, slower. but at about 5K lbs, it is gonna be slower anyway.
What can a 1231C take on the voltage ??
At 120V you are probably best off with 20 of the t-145's with about
212ah @ 1 hr rate . 1420 Lbs of lead
for about 72 Max new range.
Charge at work, Work on the aero dynamics of the truck, Take a slower
route, Get some high pressure tires for the added weight and lower
rolling resistance, put on a belly pan...Maybe get that 350 wh/mile down.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a full isolation circuit system, it prevents any arcing if any non-grounding
conductor is grounded to a un-grounded metal chassis. We used this type of
system in explosive proof areas.
I had batteries blew up when a one of the Lines shorted to the chassic.
If a non-grounding conductor , Line 1 or Line 2 is making contact with a
un-ground metal chassis, than the ground detection system. The detection
systems can adjusted for the level of current leakage and has outputs to
operated shut down equipment.
In a GFCI system, you do not need to connected the grounding or a ground wire
to a GFCI circuit. In the AC input circuit of a battery charger, this will
still detect a unbalance current flow between Line 1 and Line 2 in a 240 VAC
circuit or Line 1 and Neutral in a 120 VAC circuit, but I found it does not
detect this unbalance on the DC side of the battery charger.
I still have to design a ground detection circuit for the DC side. One ideal
is to install a current relay using a small isolation transformer and photo
control led that is install from any one of the battery terminals and the
un-grounded chassis.
If the leakage current is at a level where it will activate this circuit, than
I can have it turn off the AC magnetic contactor that is already existing in
the AC input line.
We used these ground detecting systems, where we can either detect if equipment
is grounded or un-grounded.
One area we install this type of system in in hospital operating rooms, where
all electrical is all isolated. There is no AC grounded chassis. If a
non-grounding conductor has shorted to a chassis, it will not arc and provides
indications on the faults.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Stockton<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
Roland Wiench wrote:
> In this type of isolated grounding circuits, there is
> normally a ground detection circuit, that detects if there is
> any ground conductors shorted to chassic. If the ground
> conductors shorts to a metal chassic, then it turns off the
> the AC input power either by a power circuit breaker or a AC
> magnetic contactor.
What would be the benefit of isolating the charger chassis from the
vehicle chassis (i.e. allowing the vehicle chassis to remain unbonded
from the AC line earth/safety ground) that would justify adding the cost
and complexity of these additional safety interrupts?
Simply bonding the charger chassis (AC line earth) to the vehicle
chassis will ensure that if there is a short to the vehicle chassis, the
AC power will be interrupted by tripping the breaker on the charger or
outlet; no additional expense or complexity required.
> If you charge outside on a wet surface, it is advisable to
> install a GFI system or just leave the EV chassic grounded.
I would strongly suggest that if you are running a non-isolated charger
it is advisable to install a GFCI permanently between the charger and AC
input to the vehicle, whether you choose to bond the vehicle chassis to
earth ground or not. The GFCI will interrupt the AC input if there is
significant leakage between the pack and chassis (if earthed) or if a
conductive path is formed between earth ground and the battery back
through someone (even if the chassis is not earthed).
The key to remember here is that the *only* safeties present may be
those you specifically install. A PFCxx does not come equipped with a
GFCI or anything to interrupt the AC supply in the event of a
short/leakage between either output and the vehicle chassis (unless the
chassis is bonded to earth ground).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has come to my attention that I was not careful enough and my zilla
quit working cause it got wet!
I would like to re-arrange the under hood setup to accomadate a box that
houses the zilla,hairball, dc-dc converter and am asking the list for
help on how to construct the box.
I would like the lid to be clear so the zilla can be shown off. Maybe I
can get the charger up there to.
I would like to protect the items form moisture, but also provide
cooling air. I though about the way cars do this with a filter .
I am very low on funds at the moment.
Although I don't expect any more rain for a while, there is the
occasional puddle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
It is best to used a NEMA 12 enclosurer which you can purchase from a whole
sale electrical suppler. These enclosures are made by Hoffman and you can get
them in either plastic or metal.
These boxes are watertight and can get with a lift off cover, screw on cover or
hinge cover.
You can get them in any size and with a chassis plate. You should size the
chassis plate for the Zilla, hair ball the main contactor, motor amp shunt, and
terminal strips.
Provide room around the chassis plate for incoming wire harness and panel
mounted fuse holders.
You can get a clear cover so you could read the hair ball data. A optional
grill to be mounted on one side for out going air flow. I cut a fan inlet hole
on the other side to mount a Dayton blower fan that a 6 inch Air filter housing
that is used for a carburetor.
Bring all you circuit lines in from the bottom or side. I used black plastic
water tight box connectors which are normally design for cable, but also will
fit the wire looms if you get the size to fit the wire loom diameter.
My enclosurer is hang off a steel mount that extends about 8 inches from the
firewall and up high next to the hood. This is right above the motor, where
the motor leads come off the bottom of this box.
I also water cool the Zilla with lines coming up the bottom through grommets.
If you do not want to use cable box connectors for your wires, you could also
use grommets that will fit the wire looms or tape conductors.
It is best to install the wire or cable inlets in a wire loom that has one wrap
of electrical tape and position so not water can travel into the enclosures in
these locations.
I used a lift off cover on my unit, because there is not enough room for a
hinge cover.
Another source for these NEMA 12 enclosures may be from:
www.surplusales.com<http://www.surplusales.com/>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 7:29 PM
Subject: glass topped coffin.
It has come to my attention that I was not careful enough and my zilla
quit working cause it got wet!
I would like to re-arrange the under hood setup to accomadate a box that
houses the zilla,hairball, dc-dc converter and am asking the list for
help on how to construct the box.
I would like the lid to be clear so the zilla can be shown off. Maybe I
can get the charger up there to.
I would like to protect the items form moisture, but also provide
cooling air. I though about the way cars do this with a filter .
I am very low on funds at the moment.
Although I don't expect any more rain for a while, there is the
occasional puddle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet,
If you're interested, I have a few "bad boys" hangin' around that I am
willing to part out or sell to a good home. (They are a little overweight
though)
Let me know what you need.
Jimmy
https://dm3electrics.com/
> Thanks James,
>
> But I am unfortunately one of those people that (although I don't have
> alot of
> money) has more money than time. I really don't have the time to go
> 'scrounging
> around' hamfests, surplus houses, junk dealers, etc. even if I knew
> where to
> find them. (Which would take even more time to find. ;-)
>
> Although I may end up spending a bit more money I would like to just
> order the
> parts from some online place and then build it in a couple (few?)
> evenings.
>
> I have tried quite a bit of searching and I find lots of different power
> supply
> and charger circuits and all of them are just not quite what I'm looking
> for. I
> know just enough to be dangerous so I need a little something a little
> more
> 'kit like'. Like the old Heath Kit sort of thing.
>
> Regards,
> Chet
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> UL standards require non-isolated chargers,
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Did you perhaps mean to say that UL standards require *isolated*
> chargers?
Oops; that's a typo. The UL battery charger standards I know of require
*isolated* chargers.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Claudio wrote:
> >
> > Column 5 is Armature Duty Cycle, and column 6 is Battery
> voltage.
> > Perhaps you simply made a typo, and meant columns 6 + 7.
> >
> > If not, is it possible you may have actually watched the duty
> > cycle drop as the battery voltage rose? That would correspond to
> a
> > 27% duty cycle, with your 192V pack sagging to 177V, which are
> > reasonable figures, and I'd guess about right around the driving
> > conditions you stated.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Claudio
> >
>
Thats exactly what I did. I looked at the Duty Cycle column and
Battery Voltage column. Its quite hard to see those small numbers
on the Palm Pilot when driving down the road, Especially with no
headers on the columns. I'll fire up the laptop so I can do some
screen dumps to a file and analyze it closer. Most likely it
behaved exactly how I expected it to. I was just looking at the
wrong columns. Now I know I'm not crazy, inattentive yes, but not
crazy.
Thanks
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the Sonoma is bigger ( so the s 10 ois better) , don't know about
the adapter or tranny ,
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: S10 conversion
All -
Okay, this is sort of a lazy question, but is there a difference between
the Chevy S10 and the GMC Sonoma?? Will the S10 adapter, etc, work on the
Sonoma - ergo, do they have the same engine/tranny setups??
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't rember where I read this but the GMC rear bed rails are spaced apart
farther and batteries fit better. Again not first hand info so take with
salt.
later,
Wire
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: S10 conversion
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:08:30 -0500
All -
Okay, this is sort of a lazy question, but is there a difference between
the Chevy S10 and the GMC Sonoma?? Will the S10 adapter, etc, work on the
Sonoma - ergo, do they have the same engine/tranny setups??
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two amps should push the battery well over 15 volts. There is
something wrong with that battery.
I have heard that the quality of Optimas has gone down since Johnson
Controls bought the company and then fired the entire Optima R&D
department. I guess this is confirmation of that rumor.
Bill Dube'
At 04:03 PM 6/21/2006, you wrote:
On Jun 19, 2006, at 8:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that 0.1 amp is a bit low for 14.7 volts. I think that some
batteries would never get there, especially in warm weather. If
possible, I would set that to 0.25 amp.
That mostly functions as a way to hold them at 14.7 volts for 8
hours. The charger(s) then times out to a 13.4 volt float. My
individual finish charger is the same Deltran 10 bank charger than Dennis uses.
As I've mentioned several times before, you really have to
go one more step on this charge sequence to get full capacity and
full cycle life. You must push in about an extra 8% amp-hrs after
the current tapers off at 14.7 volts. Go to 2 amps constant
current until you have put in the extra 8%. You have to use 2 amps
or the voltage is not high enough to remove sulfation that may
have built up. If you use less, capacity will slowly creep down.
If you skip the 8% overcharge, capacity will ratchet down a bit more quickly.
As you know, I am also in the camp that likes to push the Optimas
over 15 volts and generally err on the side of overcharge (at low
current levels) instead of undercharging.
Right now though, I'm fighting a different problem with a couple of
my new Optimas. One battery that that is having difficulty getting
over 14.5 volts at 2 amps, just gets slightly warm. For example,
take a gentle 4 mile drive and find that battery still taking 2 amps
at 14.5 volts after 10 hours of charging! Another one takes too long
to get there. I actually tested my equalization bad-boy yesterday,
just to see how the 10 Optimas compared when charged. The test
lasted about 2 minutes. 8 batteries went to around 15.8 volts and
the other 2 only around 13.8 volts (at the time it was only pushing
around 1.3 amps.) That would hint that the 2 aren't charged, but the
resting voltage (and the excessive amp hours that have been put into
them) tell me they are.
What equalization voltage is high enough? I know Optima recommends 2
amps, but that can create scary high voltages. I tend to equalize
with a target of 2 around amp *hours* for every 60 to 100 amp hours
discharged (around once a week.) I generally equalize with a bad boy
connected strait to the 120 volt pack (less than 2 amps but the
batteries will stay under 17 volts.)
The new pack has been spared any of this so far. I don't want to be
accused of overcharge abuse while I sort out troubles. Likewise, the
trips are kept short as I don't want to be accused of excessive
discharge abuse. Right now I just drive to and from work and check
the pack out carefully each morning and evening.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> In a full isolation circuit system, it prevents any arcing if
> any non-grounding conductor is grounded to a un-grounded
> metal chassis. We used this type of system in explosive proof areas.
Gotcha; so you are trying to protect against the event of a non-grounded
conductor shorting to the vehicle chassis *while* charging is in
progress. If the short occurs before charging begins, then the
breaker/fuse will open and shut the charger down immediately when AC is
applied.
Once again, I think it is important to stress that unless one
specifically installs some sort of detection system to sense a
short/leakage from either non-grouned AC conductor to the vehicle
chassis, then isolating the charger/AC earth from the vehicle chassis
*degrades* safety by preventing the breaker/fuse from opening in the
event of a short to the vehicle chassis.
> In a GFCI system, you do not need to connected the grounding
> or a ground wire to a GFCI circuit. In the AC input circuit
> of a battery charger, this will still detect a unbalance
> current flow between Line 1 and Line 2 in a 240 VAC circuit
> or Line 1 and Neutral in a 120 VAC circuit, but I found it
> does not detect this unbalance on the DC side of the battery charger.
While you may not be able to use a GFCI on the DC side of the charger, I
would have expected a GFCI on the input side of a non-isolated charger
to trip if there is sufficient leakage between either DC output
conductor and the AC earth since this would represent some of the
current in one of the ungrounded input conductors beign diverted to
earth and should also appear as an imbalance in the current on the two
ungrounded AC input conductors. Perhaps since the two ungrounded AC
input conductors are alternately connected to the DC +ve and -ve
outputs, the leakage alternately appears on one and then the other, with
the net effect that the GFCI sees the leakage equally on both conductors
and as a result sees no net imbalance?
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you need one of those old sound-dampening printer enclosures
from the old days. They had a clear lid, sound absorbing materials, and even
a few muffin fans!
~~If you sometimes get the sudden urge to run around naked,
drink some Windex: It will keep you from streaking.~~
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:29 PM
Subject: glass topped coffin.
It has come to my attention that I was not careful enough and my zilla
quit working cause it got wet!
I would like to re-arrange the under hood setup to accomadate a box that
houses the zilla,hairball, dc-dc converter and am asking the list for
help on how to construct the box.
I would like the lid to be clear so the zilla can be shown off. Maybe I
can get the charger up there to.
I would like to protect the items form moisture, but also provide
cooling air. I though about the way cars do this with a filter .
I am very low on funds at the moment.
Although I don't expect any more rain for a while, there is the
occasional puddle.
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--- Begin Message ---
A variac charger is very simple, and would cost you about $200, with all the
parts available on-line very simply, except for the basic enclosure for the
parts other than the variac itself (small toolbox, lunchbox, etc.) some wire
and common connectors and a piece of sheet metal for a heat sink.
BUT
I would strongly recommend that you spend a little time educating yourself on
battery charging principles and how a basic rectifier charger works. (Bad boy,
modified bad boy, etc.) You should understand the (simple) theory behind its
operation, then you can make an educated decision about the design you want,
how many safety devices you want to incorporate, etc.
The basic design for a variac charger for a 108 volt pack is this: Buy a 10 to
20 amp 110 Volt Variac off EBay. (Search for "variac") Chinese units are
regularly available for $125 or so delivered; used domestic units are also sold
in large numbers.. When you plug the variac in, and turn the dial, it gives
you a variable voltage alternating current output. It's big, and heavy, and
dumb. You run 12 gauge wires from the output of the variac to a bridge
rectifier with a voltage and amperage rating higher than you're working with.
(Easy enough, 200 to 400 volt, 35 amp bridge rectifiers are widely available
online for about $5 apiece. Example:
http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?SearchQuery=35+bridge+rectifier&SearchType=STANDARD&submit=search+again
The rectifier converts the alternating current to direct current. You will
want to buy a box of crimp on female wire disconnects to connect your wires to
the rectifier. (Any hardware store - $2 for 10 or so.) Voila! You now have a
charger. It's crude, and dangerous, and has the capacity to fill (or ruin)
your pack. You will need some means of connecting the wires from the DC posts
of the rectifier to your pack - battery charger style clamps are, again,
widely available in hardware stores; you may have some other means in mind.
After you connect it to your batteries, and raise the voltage on the variac
dial, the amps will climb You will need an ammeter so that you can crank up
the voltage until the charger is pushing the 10 amps you're aiming for into
your battery pack - but no higher, (This will be somewhere around the 75%
zone of the variac dial) If you go too far you may pop the circuit breaker or
eventually cook your batteries. Again, ammeters are widely
available online for $10 - $15. Example:
http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=698-8206&SEARCH=ammeter&ID=&MPN=8206Z&DESC=8206Z
Wire the ammeter in series on one of the DC wires coming out of the rectifier.
Okay, so now you can generate variable voltages of DC (pulsing DC, actually,
but that's not an issue yet) and can read the amps rising as you increase the
voltage, so you can turn it up to just the right voltage. The next problem is
that your bridge rectifier is going to get hot. So you need some metal to bolt
it to to absorb some of that heat and radiate it out. If you don't have any
around the house, you can buy a piece at a hardware store. Aluminum is best;
copper is okay, regular old sheet steel will work too. No special size or
shape - the bigger and more surface area the better, up to about 6" or so,
It's kind of funky to have all these pieces just rattling around (you're
talking about messing with around a kilowatt of juice) so you want to put them
in a box. You can pick up a small toolbox or lunch box for about $5, and
fasten the rectifier and heatsink and ammeter inside it. But
now you've got the heat from the rectifier building up inside, so you probably
want to vent it with a fan. Another $10:
http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=997-1123&SEARCH=120+vac+fan&ID=&MPN=SP100A%2D1123XST&DESC=SP100A%2D1123XST
This will work. You've got your variac over here, connected to your box with
12 gauge wires over there, with a meter in the box to read your amps and two
wires with adjustible DC coming out to connect to your pack. That's your
basic, no-frills variac charger. It's about as complicated as a rock. You
should be able to figure out which wire goes where just by looking at it. If
you try to plug it into a 15 Amp outlet you may blow the breaker if you push
too much juice through it. (The "power factor" is bad.) 108V pack you should
be okay at 10 amps, but you never know. Also, you will only be charging at one
voltage once you set the variac unless you come out and manually adjust it from
time to time. The amps will start to drop shortly after you start charging,
and then the voltage may be too high when your batteries start to get full.
There is a level that will push a useful amount of juice into your pack without
running the risk of hurting your batteries - but it
won't charge as fast at that voltage. Etc. To optimize it's utility for you
will require a small amount of trial and error - if you understand the
principle behind what you're doing. If you don't, bad things will probably
happen. (And add-ons like circuit breakers or fuses and GFCI are good, too.)
Again - educating yourself as to the basic priciples involved wil let you make
a cheap and workable (if crude) auxiliary charger. But if you don't do the
learning, you may do some burning!
Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- James Massey wrote:
> Sounds like you need a variac charger of some form - either a 10A variac or
>
> These type of chargers are generally built based on things you "find",
> rather than buying everything needed. A variac from a 'hamfest' or if luck
> has it a second-hand shop, an industrial 'junk dealer' (where my 240VAC 30A
Thanks James,
But I am unfortunately one of those people that (although I don't have alot of
money) has more money than time. I really don't have the time to go 'scrounging
around' hamfests, surplus houses, junk dealers, etc. even if I knew where to
find them. (Which would take even more time to find. ;-)
Although I may end up spending a bit more money I would like to just order the
parts from some online place and then build it in a couple (few?) evenings.
I have tried quite a bit of searching and I find lots of different power supply
and charger circuits and all of them are just not quite what I'm looking for. I
know just enough to be dangerous so I need a little something a little more
'kit like'. Like the old Heath Kit sort of thing.
Regards,
Chet
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--- Begin Message ---
There are three barriers to getting a shock in an EV:
1. Isolating the battery terminals from the mains and chassis.
2. Detecting an imbalance in the line currents to open the feed.
3. Grounding all touchable surfaces of the vehicle.
I was surprised at Roland's suggestion of violating shock barrier #3. The
green chassis of the PFCXX chargers are connected to green wire ground of
the facility to facilitate this barrier. If the chassis of the car is
grounded, touching the chassis will produce no voltage across the user. If
the chassis of the car is grounded and all the battery terminals are covered
by covers connected to the chassis, there is no way to get shocked.
Someone can get shocked if:
1. a cover is removed allowing someone to touch a hot terminal.
2. the chassis wire is not connected to ground.
The problem comes up when using a non-isolated charger with a flooded
battery and a GFCI. The flooded batteries give off vapors that cause a
leakage path to ground. This path causes nuisance trips of the GFCI. There
are three ways to fix the nuisance trips:
1. Clean the batteries,
2. Remove the GFCI, or
3. Disconnect the ground wire.
The preferred method of dealing with the situation is option #1 but if
someone is in a hurry, they might do #2 or #3 creating a danger to
themselves and others.
Since the car is KNOWN to have a leak to chassis capable of opening the
GFCI, removing the GFCI will cause ground current to flow from the grid
through the battery pack leakage path to ground through the chassis and
green wire ground. This is safe as long as the outlet has a good ground. If
the car is plugged into an outlet with a bad green wire ground, there is
potential for a shock from chassis.
Since the car is KNOWN to have a leak to chassis capable of opening the
GFCI, removing the green wire ground WILL produce a hot chassis. If the GFCI
is present and operating properly, it will open when someone touches the
chassis, but will not open if no one touches the vehicle. This is a
dangerous hot chassis protected by a GFCI. If the car is plugged into a non
GFCI protected outlet, there is potential for a shock from chassis.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: Isolated vs. Non-isolated Battery Chargers
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> >If it's an on board charger that is a non-isolated type, it is best to
> >install the charger inside a plastic or fiberglass enclosure.
> >The charger body is only AC grounded and not the frame.
>
> I've read these isolated vs. non-isolated threads so many times over the
> years, I thought I understood, but I guess I was wrong.
>
> So a PFC charger's case SHOULD NOT have any contact with the car's frame,
is
> that what Roland is saying? Therefore, the car's chassis is not grounded.
> Barring any leakages, then, touching the chassis and any battery terminal
> will not provide a path for current.
>
> Touching a cell terminal and the charger's case WILL provide a path to
> ground, and could thus be dangerous.
>
> There could, however, be small leakages from things like brush dust in the
> motor, or acid traces from PbA batteries, which might still provide a path
> from traction pack to ground. If the traction pack is totally
disconnected
> from the controller/motor/etc. by means of two contactors, then dust in
the
> motor won't matter. So in this case, it's only leakages from the battery
> pack & pack-to-contactor wiring that could possibly causes a leakage.
>
> Since you're standing on the ground, however, there will always be a path
> from a battery terminal to ground, because, well, it's the ground!
>
> Have I stated it correctly? Did I miss anything?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As promised, here are some pics of my Kostov:
<http://9electric.evforge.net/electricmotor.html>
--- Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have pictures of a kostov out of a car -
> preferably from various angles?
> ...
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