EV Digest 5632
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fun with Z-regs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV for a different customer.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Tire info link / weight of wheels question
by "Steven Potter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, auto trans
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fun with Z-regs
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Whr/mile
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my first
one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do away
with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM parts as
possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they invented
the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to put a
little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on where
you put the fulcrum :-) Smart ass mode off now. In our Ford Taurus race car
and in GP we used a Wilwood 7 to 1 brake pedal assembly.
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/index.asp
Yes it is a bit of work to install but the resulting silence is golden.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
Brian
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--- Begin Message ---
Saturn Vue has electric power steering also. May be the same unit.
The interesting thing about this delphi unit is that it attaches to the
column, above the rack or gearbox, So it is more readily adapted to
vehilces. It looks like I could fit it in, but to tell you the truth, I
don't seem to miss it.
I don't know about the prius one yet, but the honda has the motor on the
rack itself, so kinda of more model specific.
For AC, I have decided when I get some bucks to go get a 2004 prius
compressor and convert the car to r134, I will put the compressor, old
condensor, and a fan in the space where the fuel tank was because the
original area has 7 of my batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Condie wrote:
> OK, so I changed my Hart Z-regs from 2 6.8 zeners to one 6.8 and one
> 6.2 per battery. The results look good - the bulbs start to glow at
> about 13.85 volts - the zeners seem to get warm a little bit earlier.
I've tried both, as well as others (such as two 6.2v zeners and one
1N4001 diode). They each have slightly different characteristics, but
all work.
> I noticed something odd. The individual battery voltage variances
> were not linear.
That's correct. You are seeing the differences between batteries that
causes them to need equalization and balancing!
> I "calibrated" my visual assessment of the relative brightness of
> the bulbs against voltmeter readings and found that my eyeballs
> were pretty accurate, at least when comparing one bulb agains another.
The human eye is exceptionally good at spotting brightness variations.
Light bulbs also have a large brightness variation with current. These
effects combine to make it easy to see voltage differences between
batteries.
> This seems to be a pattern with several of the batteries - quicker to
> 14v means dimmer at 14.8v, and vice-versa. Anyone have any ideas why?
You're seeing that some batteries get to "full" a bit sooner. Their
voltage rises quicker to 14v, so they get full first, so their current
drops off quicker after that.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> ...they might be a candidate for higher priced, turnkey EV. Something
> with an AC drivetrain and advanced batteries... they totaled up the
> gasoline bill and it hit $1400 last month for them... They currently
> have trucks, SUV's and a mini SUV...
This reminded me of an idea that I think has merit.
Let's assume you have a pickup truck. You're interested in EVs, but
don't want to give up your range, cargo capacity, etc. You're also
worried about the practicality of EVs, and don't want to spend a fortune
on a conversion, only to find it won't work for you and you've wrecked a
perfectly good truck.
Suppose we made an EV "converter" that fits entirely in the bed, like a
camper. It's a big flat pallet with batteries, motor, and controller.
Open the tailgate, and slide it right in. It could have folding legs
with wheels like an ambulance stretcher, motorized to raise it up/down,
so one person can do it quickly and easily.
Make it a friction drive. Cut a hole in the tops of the wheel wells,
right above the tires. The "converter" has a rear axle with
differential, two rubber tires, and suspension to hold it against the
pickup's rear tires. Note that a significant amount of the converter's
weight is being borne directly by the tires, not the pickup's suspension
-- you have in effect added "helper springs" to the truck to carry the
extra load.
Place a rubber pad on top of the brake and accellerator pedals. Start
the car, and the ICE runs normally so you have all your accessories
(heater, A/C, power steering, etc.). When you press the pedals lightly,
the pads send signals to the "converter" to accellerate or slow down
(regenerative braking). If you press harder, the "converter" reaches its
maximum power (which is rather low due to the friction drive), and the
ICE and regular friction brakes take over.
What you have is really a hybrid!
When you need the cargo or load carrying space, just remove the EV
converter. Your stock truck is back, with just a couple holes in the
wheel wells to show where it was. The cutout pieces can be hinged to
flip back over the holes, or even welded back in when you sell the
truck.
What do you think?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my
first one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do
away with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM
parts as possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they
invented the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to
put a little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on
where you put the fulcrum :-)
Sure - You can reduce the required pedal force, by either changing the
pedal/master cylinder geometry ( changing the leverage) , or by just
reducing the master cylinder bore diameter. They would have the same
effect.
But, the pedal throw will go up by the same factor that the pedal force goes
down. There's no free lunch to be had here. If you can live with a pedal
that starts up much higher, and has to be pressed down much further, that
will work. But, as some point, it would become awkward and maybe even not
as safe to use.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I came across the Tire Bible while doing some research for my EV
project:
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
It’s a very interesting read and covers just about everything you’d want
to know about tires. The one exception being it makes no reference
whatsoever to LRR tires…my main concern at the moment.
Today I’ll crawl down under and try to decipher the codes on the inside
of my alloy wheels. My truck came with huge, fat low profile radials. I
need to see if I can re-use the same wheels with LRR tires.
If I end up needing to get new wheels I’d be interested in seeing any
info about the weights of various steel and aluminum wheels. Anyone seen
this info anywhere?
Steven Potter, Toronto
’98 Ranger
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--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Does anyone know what the actual drag coefficient is for a
> Triumph Daytona 675 or a good guestimate of the amount of
> HP necessary to maintain 85 mph.
> My question to the list is: does anyone out there know
> enough about bike aerodynamics to tell me if 24 hp is
> enough to maintain 85 mph?
It isn't very scientific, but a friend's Yamaha DT125 (liquid cooled
125cc 2-stroke enduro) would *just* achieve 75-80mph. This is a
completely unfaired bike, but it is quite narrow, so while the faired
Daytona may be a bit slipperier they might also be about on par based on
CdA.
This was a early '80 model bike; I see online that the present version
seems to be rated 11kW peak power (@ 8000RPM), which is about 15HP.
I've also seen mention that fully unrestricted, etc. this bike can
achieve close to 26HP (however, my friend's bike was bone stock and
probably lucky if it made factory spec output).
I think this is fairly suggestive that 15-20HP ought to be sufficient to
maintain 80-85MPH on level ground.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
> EQUALIZERS. Hopefully the author did not have a conflict of interests.
> http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
Though a good paper, it is clearly written for marketing purposes and
has a noticeable bias. Basically, it demonstrates that AGMs with no
regulators die early, and that regulators extend life. We already know
that.
Here are a few things I noted:
1. It only tests one regulator, the PowerCheq device. You can't draw
any conclusions on what would happen with any other type of
regulation system or devices.
2. His charge algorithm is odd. Note in fig.13 how the voltage jumps
around, and the current changes in quantum steps. The entire charge
cycle is only 4.6 hours long -- that's very short for this type of
battery, so it can be expected that some will not reach full charge.
3. Battery 3 in the string without PowerCheqs was clearly bad; it had
a reversed cell. In fig.14, it was at 8.xx volts throughout the
discharge.
> Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
> miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
> in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
That's good advice.
Flooded lead-acids and nicads have clearly demonstrated that they can
last a lot more than 20k miles without any kind of individual battery
regulation. They do it by not applying the low voltages described in
this paper, thereby avoiding undercharging. They equalize by
overcharging, but have more rugged plates to survive grid corrosion, and
you can easily replace the water lost to gassing.
But AGMs clearly die early if you overcharge them to equalize. I think
*any* method that prevents overcharging has been shown to lengthen their
life.
- GM's EV1 with Panasonic lead-acid AGMs, and AC Propulsion's EVs
with Optimas have both gone over 20k miles. I believe they use
low-current shunt regulators, which bypass 100-200ma.
- Vehicles with the Badicheq system have gone over 20k. It has a
single 2amp 12vin/12vout DC/DC that it switches to transfer charge
from the highest to the lowest battery. As the highest/lowest
batteries change, it moves this DC/DC to different batteries.
- My own EV has 18k miles on its nearly 8-year-old Concorde AGM pack.
Most of these miles were accumulated using my own Battery Balancer,
but it had nothing for its first 6 months, and my zener/lamp
regulators for about 1 year.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The idea is sound.
But the tech limits are a little different. The voltage precision is tight
for 120 volts and a bit sloppy for 14.7 volts. So... it will work and
rather well, but I would install a Reg on the 12 volt rail and battery that
tightens up the regulation of the 12 rail. Since setting to 14.7 will have a
4 volt swing from full on to full off. 4 volts at 120 is tight enough, but
+- 2 volts at 12.5 as a center point is not good enough.
A Reg Mk2 or Mk3 will work to play tighter local regulation.
Keep in mind that the output amps will be the same... 20 to 40 depending on
charger model.
The "modified for Hybrid work" chargers have 3 seprate voltage setpots. And
two relay drives to support the two new voltages. Setting one for 14.7 volts
and having it go active when the key is on will work.
Then it is up to you to relay switch the source and destination of the
charger. DON'T get it wrong!!
Keep in mind your failure hazzards and this will work rather well.
Also I really strongly recomend that all the voltage threshold lines be kept
inside the charger, and as short as possible. The RF that these chargers
make gets into everything. The less opertunities you give these gremlins the
better. We have found that the Prius itself can make quite a bit of RF, that
gets coupled into what ever you are doing. In fact it is enough to force us
to use relays instead of Opto couplers.
This was even with my Gear disconnected... so It was not my noise source.
The main list needs to know that the modifications are by hand at the
moment... and are not really well documented...scraps and notes in the
PiPrius Project Note book. Two of these controllers exist at the moment. I
could publish the Cut and jump notes, since it's not rocket science, and a
good hardware hacker can figure it out in about 30 seconds. One of my
PiPrius clients needs a two speed Amp control also, so they can computer
control to at least two current settings, one being the main current knob,
the other being the charge limit to thier Addon Battery.
The Hybrid controller PCB in a Hybrid charger has 3 pair of relay drive
lines leaving the charger through a not so pretty hole in the front blue
block off plate. Adjusting the set points requires taking the blue plate off
to get at the pots. The old volts trim pot has been removed and relocated to
the other side of the RJ connector.
This is about a 30 minute hack.
With some added wires you in effect can charge your 12 volt battery from
Grid if you need to.
I would NOT do this without a real battery installed... don't go Battery
less with this araingment.. Unless you have a about 2 Farads of stiffening
cap for the 12 volts support. Really please use about 25 amhours of Lead
acid...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:05 AM
Subject: Return to manzanita micro dc-dc idea
> Now that you have been playing the plug in prius game, Maybe an add on
> box to use the PFC as a dc-dc would be worth a look.
> It seems like it would be pretty easy to have 2 settings and a
> multiplexed reg port
>
> In pack charge mode, 300V and regbus one and current limit 1
> in dc-dc mode switch input and output 13,8V using the reg to control
> when the aux battery gets full.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
I find the best adapter, is the one that replaces the rear bell end plate of
the motor. If a person orders a TRACTION MOTOR, this is how it comes. Also
if you specified what engine you are going to be replacing with the motor, they
tap the side's of the motor for bolting on the standard engine mount, that was
on the engine in that vehicle. It is a direct replacement, where the motor and
transmission bolts into the same places that the engine does.
This is a true TRACTION MOTOR DESIGN.
My GE TRACTION MOTOR rear end plate which is 2.5 inches thick, will fit any
bell housing from years of 1950's to the present year, except for some year
models in the 80's. GM went back to the standard size in the 90's which will
fit anything back to the 50's.
GM makes two sizes of crank flanges, so there is now two different sizes of fly
wheel bolt patterns to fit the flange. A taper lock coupler could be made to
fit both of these flywheel, flex plates, or transmission pump shaft.
At the present, when I switch from the GE motor to the Warp motor, I have to
add a adapter to the Warp motor , but I can still use the same bell housing
which is prior 70's.
The problem with the Warp motors or ADC motors, they do not have any side
mounting bolt holes, so it can be direct bolt to a standard engine mounting.
So I wrap this motor with 1/2 steel plate, carved out to miss the field bolts
and than can tap this plate for the engine motor mounts.
I contacted NetGain about this when I order my backup motor from them. Some of
the engineers wanted to incorporate the rear end plate and install mounting
bolt taps on the side of the motor like GE does, but was turn down on this
ideal unless a person orders 100 or more for one specific vehicle.
If a person is doing EV conversions, I would special order the motors and have
them converted to TRACTION MOTORS, will be a straight drop in with some off set
brackets for different car models.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: DC Motor torque calculations
In response to "
The EV conversion business is a difficult way to make a living... ;^>"
Maybe because we don't share.
We each re-invent the adapter, no standard, no economy of scale.
What if we took this approach? (I have talked this talk before)
Standards.
7",8",9" taper lock to small block chevy crank. I got quotes for a machine
shop to make small quantities. The quote needs larger and repeat quantities to
make it feasable. This is one adapter and 3 possible taperlock sheeves we could
use on all conversions if we also use the next standard.
Button flywheel for SBC and dual plate 7" racing clutch. These are standard
wheather you use tilton,clutchmaster, and others.
The disks are the same, just order with correct spline.
Aluminum motor bell. These give a 12" dia mouting register and set back the
motor just enough to use one of the standard plate thicknesses for the tranny
to bell adapter. I don't yet know how many models differing in only the depth
we need. Once this info is had we make castings that get cleaned up in the cnc
to furthor reduce costs.
The standard thickness plate is water jet to profile, dropped in a cnc and
the 12" register is cleaned up and the entire bolt and dowel pattern is walked
off.
Stamped and folded motor mount with a 7,8,9" ubolt, made at a spring shop
that makes u bolts for large truck axles. The fine threaded 3/4 or 7/8 rod
about 2 feet long costs around $10 then is bent in seconds. In Fresno, 8" is
the limit, but the machine is avil larger and is easily reproduced for our
needs.
<soapbox>
Just like Otmar and Rich have specialized and are able to make cost effective
solutions, someone needs to do the same for adapters. How many of us, (except
Lee, would have an EV if we had to make the controller and charger?
</soapbox>
I have got the tooling and manufacturing background, but not the capitol and
information (that may all change, a new job is on the horizon!)
Just because we have all those car models, we shouldn't follow there example
and make all custom adapters. We are mostly using the same motor, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are both; well the ones that I work on anyway, let's call them "a leaky
pressure machine". The valve body uses pressure to overcome spring pressure
but has no seals on the valves, the clutch packs use pressure to engage the
clutch but the seals on the main shaft that get the fluid to the clutch leak
a lot of fluid in order to get long life. The rear shaft uses flow for the
bearings and bushings for lubrication and to wash away heat.
it's never simple or black and white is it?
Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that?
On the subject of using the automatic, Are transmissions flow machines
or pressure machines?
Flow system: The pump flows thru the system constantly building pressure
as needed. If the pump shuts off the pressure drops to zero rapidly. Or
a pressure system like older power steering systems where pressure is
built against a pressure relieve valve.
If the tranny has a pressure port that controls the valves that doesnt
take a lot of flow, ie seperate from the torque converter circuit, then
perhpas we could just put one of those football sized nitrogen charged
accumulators to maintain the pressure while stopped. perhaps a pump on a
contactor could come on to build pressure if the accumulator drains,
like initial start up or long lights.
How about for start up. clutch interlock on key to prevent lurching in
gear and while in start possition a contactor pulls in a resistor and
spins the main motor, building pressure into the accumulator. The motor
coasts to a stop when the key is released to the run position. (make it
like starting a diesel if it takes longer than that)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am running a new 2005 GMC diesel pickup vacuum pump in my EV, and I do not
hear it. The brush noise on my Warp motor is at the lowest sound level, next
come four fans. The A/C fan I soap up to blast a person out of the EV is the
loudest which I used this morning when the ambient air temperature was 45
degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Roderick Wilde<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
Brian, I know we sell one but I always recommend using enhanced manual
brakes. I also hate the sound of a vacuum pump. It is one of the first
things I gave the Ford rep crap about on their EV Ranger when I saw my first
one. His explanation when I asked them why the engineers did not do away
with it was actually quite logical. They wanted to use as much OEM parts as
possible. Anyway, years ago, I don't remember when exactly, they invented
the lever. I was probably a kid then. This device allowed you to put a
little pressure in one end and get a lot out the other depending on where
you put the fulcrum :-) Smart ass mode off now. In our Ford Taurus race car
and in GP we used a Wilwood 7 to 1 brake pedal assembly.
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/indexasp<http://www.wilwood.com/Products/005-PedalAssemblies/002-FSMP/clutch/index.asp>
Yes it is a bit of work to install but the resulting silence is golden.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com<http://www.evparts.com/>
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
> EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
>
>
> The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
> When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
> away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
>
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
>
>
>
> I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
> someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 8, 2006, at 8:38 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
This seems to be a pattern with several of the batteries - quicker to
14v means dimmer at 14.8v, and vice-versa. Anyone have any ideas why?
You're seeing that some batteries get to "full" a bit sooner. Their
voltage rises quicker to 14v, so they get full first, so their current
drops off quicker after that.
What Lee? If the batteries are being charged in series and a Zreg is
dimmer then that battery has a lower voltage. The current through the
battery with the dimmer reg is *slightly* higher (the current through
the reg does start at 0 and build up as the voltage increases.)
I don't know what causes the effect Steve Condie described, but I know
its real. When charging AGMs in series some will see a voltage increase
sooner (when the pack voltage is lower and the current higher) but
later in the charge (when pack voltage is higher and current lower) the
same battery will have a lower voltage than most of the pack. I know
when this gets real bad (one battery hitting 15 volts when the rest are
in the 13's, then later when the rest are in the upper 14's that one is
back down in the 13's) its a sign that the battery has been vented a
lot. The smaller differences never seemed to point to any one thing, or
even a problem (that I could determine.) I've been curious about this
issue myself.
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finding cold hard numbers is challenging to say the least. I did find
a couple of sources of info though that might be of help to us:
Kawasaki ZX-12 is 0.603
Hayabusa is 0.561
Source: http://snipurl.com/sx9l
At about 200 (124 mph) kilometers per hours, reducing CdA by about
0.01 adds about 1.0 k/hr to top speed. At 300 k/hr (186 mph), the
same CdA reduction adds about 3 to 4 k/hr to top speed.
Source: http://snipurl.com/sx9j
I'll take a wild guess (not even a guestimate) that they Daytona 675
is in the .85 range.
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would there be any advantage/disadvantage to using a simple battery
regulator (such as Lee's zener/lamp setup) on flooded PbA batteries?
Obviously the cost and time to implement the system would be a
disadvantage, but would there be any benefit for flooded batteries?
Just a thought...
Nick
Lee Hart wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
EQUALIZERS. Hopefully the author did not have a conflict of interests.
http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
Though a good paper, it is clearly written for marketing purposes and
has a noticeable bias. Basically, it demonstrates that AGMs with no
regulators die early, and that regulators extend life. We already know
that.
Here are a few things I noted:
1. It only tests one regulator, the PowerCheq device. You can't draw
any conclusions on what would happen with any other type of
regulation system or devices.
2. His charge algorithm is odd. Note in fig.13 how the voltage jumps
around, and the current changes in quantum steps. The entire charge
cycle is only 4.6 hours long -- that's very short for this type of
battery, so it can be expected that some will not reach full charge.
3. Battery 3 in the string without PowerCheqs was clearly bad; it had
a reversed cell. In fig.14, it was at 8.xx volts throughout the
discharge.
Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
That's good advice.
Flooded lead-acids and nicads have clearly demonstrated that they can
last a lot more than 20k miles without any kind of individual battery
regulation. They do it by not applying the low voltages described in
this paper, thereby avoiding undercharging. They equalize by
overcharging, but have more rugged plates to survive grid corrosion, and
you can easily replace the water lost to gassing.
But AGMs clearly die early if you overcharge them to equalize. I think
*any* method that prevents overcharging has been shown to lengthen their
life.
- GM's EV1 with Panasonic lead-acid AGMs, and AC Propulsion's EVs
with Optimas have both gone over 20k miles. I believe they use
low-current shunt regulators, which bypass 100-200ma.
- Vehicles with the Badicheq system have gone over 20k. It has a
single 2amp 12vin/12vout DC/DC that it switches to transfer charge
from the highest to the lowest battery. As the highest/lowest
batteries change, it moves this DC/DC to different batteries.
- My own EV has 18k miles on its nearly 8-year-old Concorde AGM pack.
Most of these miles were accumulated using my own Battery Balancer,
but it had nothing for its first 6 months, and my zener/lamp
regulators for about 1 year.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich and all,
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Now that you have been playing the plug in prius game, Maybe an add
on box to use the PFC as a dc-dc would be worth a look. in dc-dc mode
switch input and output 13,8V using the reg to control when the aux
battery gets full.
Rich Rudman wrote:
The idea is sound.
But is it? Assuming Jeff is talking about using your standard
non-isolated PFC chargers... isn't this a very unsafe idea?
In fact I was surprised that in the other thread regarding pack voltage
to 12-Volt DC/DC converter features, no one mentioned input/output
isolation. I'm just not convinced that referencing the traction pack's
negative to the 12-volt system's negative (and thus the vehicle chassis)
is even a remotely good idea.
My 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
What is the terrain between 5 and 15 miles away from your house?
The only way I can explain the increase of consumption PER MILE
is that on trips of more than 10 miles you get into hills or
hard accel and frequent stops, or high-speed freeway driving,
while below 10 miles you are on residential streets?
About the e-bike consumption: that sounds about right.
Not only is the 12Ah, 24V pack quoted for about 18 miles range
288/18 = 16 Wh/mi according the sales dept
but also the ratio in weight is between 1/10 to 1/20 of a car,
so why not the consumption?
(I know, speeds are much lower, but also the aerodynamics of a
bicyclist is not great, the motor and controller efficiency is
likely lower than the car-version)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:34 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Whr/mile
I only have just over a month (~600 miles) on my 4000 lb truck. But I can
say the numbers look like this on average:
Up to 10 mile trips sees ~175Wh/mi
Between 10 to 20 mile trips ~285Wh/mi
Between 20 to 30 mile trips (only have a handful) ~350Wh/mi
These are under normal driving conditions, no hard accelerations to beat the
kid next to me to the next light, fairly flat,
stop-n-go on secondary streets 35-50 mph.
If I give a few demo rides to friends where I do about 10 miles with a bunch
of full power accelerations that seems to net me
about 400Wh/mi. If I did that for about 20 miles I'm sure it would be a
pitiful number. I haven't gone hard on them if I want to
make over 20 mile trips. The trends indicate I would come home at les than
%50 S.O.C.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:51 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Whr/mile
>
>
> My 5000lb truck (AC vehicle) gets as good as 260 wh/mi. Normally runs
> 300-350 wh/mi.
>
> A friends 3400lb Saturn (AC vehicle) gets as good as 157 wh/mi.
> Normally runs 170-200 wh/mi.
>
> Both are round trip.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
> >
> > Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with
> > average
> > speed?
> >
> > Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round
> > trip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The point is..
If they HAD the specs and the Bike...ready or even a sample of it.
It would have looked a LOT different..
Since even the photos that you see clearly don't have the right "Shadows",
these guys are even laying about what they are showing us..
That's the point of Rod's post and my sardonic replys.
This is not a real bike.. and is being sold as one ready to go for a price
that would land you most of a Hyabusa..(sp?)
With 80 K in my hands.. yea.. I would be going fast, But not with Goldie. I
can find better chassis than that old Rust bucket.
The step from 150 to 200 is a rather large one..ask Bill Dube...Or any one
that has gone there.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > That bike does not have the setup to do 214 at tops speed.
> > I never said 214 in the quater..
>
> No, but you alluded to performance claims requiring time slips backing
> them up before they can be taken seriously. Time slips around here tend
> to mean a run down the drag strip.
>
> What sort of setup do you think is missing to hit 214MPH? I've done
> 150+ riding two up on a Suzuki GS1150 with inferior brakes and similar
> chain drive - the two items you chose to comment on.
>
> > What we are poking fun at is it looks like a barley warmed
> > over Sub 500 CC street bike with outlandish claims, and no
> > proof.
>
> I agree that is looks more like a 1/2 litre bike than 1L+ superbike, and
> that the claims may be exaggerated, however, with a $90K pricetag I
> maintain that they can afford to throw the sort of technology at this
> that you and most other EV racers can only dream about. You'd be amazed
> at how much more performance you could get out of Goldie if you had,
> say, $80K more to invest in her than you've got in her to date.
>
> > Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some
> > real 1 liter 150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
>
> Others have suggested that the images are mockups, not photos of a real
> product; read the specs, they describe components that, as Paul Compton
> notes, are if not state of the art, are within spitting distance of it.
>
> > The simple warning is ... I bet the specs are not real.
>
> I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that ;^>
>
> But I would bet that if they build one of these, it will come closer to
> their predictions than you think.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's what the SB175 need ...you have to walk them.
If you use a SB350.. it's about 1/2 the forces.
Get scared.. check the SBX700 out.. it comes with a latch and lever system.
A man can not mate and unmate these. I have to stand on them and slam the
levers in one motion or they get stopped.
OK I win!! My connectors are larger than yours!!!
The 700 a are just about the most intimidating DC connector I have seen.
They have 10 Aux 20 amp pins inbetween the main pins that you can stick your
Thumb into.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I sure wish I had speced SB 120 s The 175s have the highest
> > insertion forces of all the SBconnectors.
>
> Hey, Rich, it could be worse; the SBX175 insertion force makes the SB175
> seem like butter in comparison. I use SB175s between my battery packs
> and my automated test setup, and SBX175s between the setup and the
> dynamic loads (I need the SBX's extra pilot contacts to allow the data
> acquisition unit to automatically shut the loads off at end of
> discharge). You can't mate/unmate an SBX175 directly, but rather have
> to "walk" it in/out of position by wiggling it side to side.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Define "lots of juice". That requirement seems to vary a lot from
> conversion to conversion. Some have said in the past on this list that
> 300-Watt DC/DCs are more than enough power. I still disagree... and my
> definition of a properly sized DC/DC would be something close to the
> capacity of the alternator it replaced, if not more [..]
I agree. It's always good to have enough 12V available, my DC-DC went
pretty flat the other day with lights, wipers, fan blowing full speed. In
addition, my relatively large vacuum pump was working hard (stop and go
traffic). Others may have electric windows, heated glass (front and/or
rear), pumps of all sort .. so, yes, an alternator sized DC-Dc would be
fine.
> Also, when you say usability as a battery charger do you mean that it
> needs to be able to run all the time at a constant output voltage (as
> most DC/DCs now do) to keep the battery on a 'float' charge? Or are you
> asking for a DC/DC that will perform a more sophisticated charge profile
> on the battery, such as an IUI charge (constant current, constant
> voltage, constant current)?
Well, since the DC-DC replaces the alternator, it should function like an
alternator. It would be even better if it would be able to switch
functions, i.e. if ignition is off, it provides all the services of a
'real' battery charger. But that might be too much to ask for.
Dreaming ...
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very good.
But.. you have not seen what I have done yet.
The control to throttle back the load.. charger or controller has been
around since the Mark 2 days and the early days of the Sparrow. We did Low
Bat control in the first DCP 1200 controllers.
Nobody used it, we spent bucks and turned a SMT mount card that read all the
batteries and throttled back the controller. This was what '99, '98??
Joe and I have made sure that this feature has been kept since then in the
Mark 2, 2B and 3 Rudman Regs. Again about 2 folks have actually used it.
This makes the feature one of those nifty items that I can't make a dime on.
Now I am doing complete battery pack integration, and it has to be user
proof, or as close as the cashflow allows...
So.. the Mk3 Digi Regs.. have a nifty feature.. if the Lowbatt goes active..
it also shuts down the charger like it would of we had a hot Reg. So in
Hybrid mode.. aka the charger is ON, AC grid or DC/DC mode the Regbuss is
hot and active.. then a low Batt event can throttle back the charger.. or
Controller if a regular EV is being used..
The test was that I ran the PiPrius pack flat into my load banks.. with a
single Mk3PHEV mod reg hooked to the weakest battery. The low batt data
point was set to 10.00 volts. I full powed the chager at 7000 watts from the
Add on into the loadbank, and set up the meters and watched.....
At 10.00 volts the Yellow led came on... the charger cut back and kept the
draw on that one battery to keep it at 10 volts, The power sagged back as
that battery controlled the whole system.
NO reversals, nothing under 10 volts... NO over voltages on the recharge,
and active capacity equalization was apparent and sufficient to bring all
the protected batteries into line.
I also Data logged the event... somewheres on my old hardrive...
So Roger.....
I would put the MK3 BMS a bit farther along that you think.
The Regs are inside a Aluminum rail that has a 1/8 lexan lid... I am not
sure that anyother protections are needed. Maybe a good Conformal coating,
and some cooling air in each channel would be nice.
So....What else do I need???
Real time calculations of the Temp comp numbers to actively read temps,
recalc the corrected voltage trip points... and then reprogram the Regs?
This will be done in firmware, as soon as we get the basic Reg settled down.
Dynamic equalization based on the last charge cycle's regging activities??
Predictive dissapation?? based on cycle life, local temp, and current charge
currents and last discharge profile?
Cell by Cell real time equalization?? With charger control. Done that on the
Lions...
Really what am I missing here???
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:12 AM
Subject: Commercial BMSs (was RE: Taurus EV)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Valence
>
> Possibly the best example, but I believe it is oriented toward looking
> after the batteries during charge, and it is only available for
> Valence's own Li batteries.
>
> > Badicheck
>
> Is this still in production?
>
> > Toyta
> > Honda
> > Ford
>
> What have they got for pure EVs, and is any of it commercially available
> for use in EVs we build?
>
> > Lee Hart Batbalencer
>
> There's certainly potential here, but no cigar yet. At the present
> time, this is not available as a finished commercial product and it
> strictly looks after charging of batteries; no means of preventing the
> user from abusing the batteries, nor of informing the user of immiment
> battery service or failure. These features could be added, but don't
> presently exist.
>
> > Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
>
> Again, there is potential here, but no cigar yet. I don't believe the
> Mk3s are commercially available yet, and the Mk1/Mk2's aren't suitable
> for prime time in their present packaging (susceptible to moisture,
> etc.). Again, this is a system that focusses primarily on doing
> something for the batteries during charge (and I believe the jury is
> still out on whether what they do is optimal or not). The under-voltage
> indication offers the potential of notifying the user of a battery
> fault/failure, but only after the fact; by the time the idiot light goes
> on, the battery has been abused. The system does not have the ability
> to protect the battery from the user. The Mk3's ability to communicate
> data certainly should allow a BMS to be built on their foundation, but
> they don't constitute one on their own. Get back to me when you have
> some sort of node for sale that plugs into the MK3 comms bus and
> notifies the user when the batteries start looking like they need
> attention (before one or more get overdischarged), and interfaces to the
> controller to prevent the user from dragging a battery below some
> minimum safe voltage, etc.
>
> > What do you have??? and what is the state of control and
> > reporting that make a "Real BMS" in your mind?
>
> For my own EV/research I've got a Lee Hart Balancer (in progress) and an
> HP data acquisition unit with 40 channels of 5.5 digit A/D and 20
> channels of dry contact outputs, of, and the ever faithful RS232
> E-Meter, of course. None of these constitute a real BMS as far as I'm
> concerned, but they are all useful tools to help me refine my short list
> of features for a real BMS.
>
> I think the comments I've offered above give a pretty good idea of the
> sort of features I presently think ought to be in a BMS.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
