EV Digest 5729
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Do I have a bad potbox?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) sticky contactors
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV's make it to the comics , Prices on Tecky Stuff.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: More Direct Drive Discussion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: More on SepEx
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) unsubscribe
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: sticky contactors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: HV wiringquestion
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Anybody try one of these?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Anybody try one of these?
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Need help replacing an ATtiny26
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration
by "Curtis Hollingshead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Need help replacing an ATtiny26
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: HV wiringquestion
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Diode for Curtis/Albright contactor
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Need help replacing an ATtiny26
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Diode for Curtis/Albright contactor
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Diode for Curtis/Albright contactor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) A Look at the Wayland Invitational II 7/29/06 [part two]
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just happens to be a T5 for sale on Ebay. There is a photo of the gear
assembly from the top. I'm going to take back my statement about the
tailshaft moving. I don't think it's possible. I think removing the trans
and pulling the top cover will show what's wrong. There's 4 days left on the
T5 and there are no bids. Don't know if it fits your aplication though.
There are different input and output shaft configurations.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/borg-warner-t-5-borg-warner-t5-t-5-5-speed-toploader-nr_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33733QQihZ013QQitemZ230015720196QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Mark Grasser
78 #358
BIG REDs
http://members.rennlist.com/mgrasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: Still having weird driveline problems
Ok, this is getting weird. I took the 94 S10 truck over to the dump today.
Loaded the bed with some sticks, junk, and the like, nothing serious.
Truck runs fine.
Went over some railroad tracks bump bump bump (hard). Truck then spins the
motor without the wheels. Pull over, massive thunking from the driveline
when I try to go forward or reverse. Look under the truck, the main axle
doesn't seem to be screwed up, but is moving in fits and starts.
Very fustrated, floor it. Truck shudders a *LOT* and in forward starts to
go backwards. In reverse it starts to go forwards (as in crawls barely).
Great-ola.
Call wife, walk to corner to get street names for tow truck. Walk back,
when I get to the truck I climb on the rear bumper and jump up and down in
fustration. Rear of truck goes up and down. Get in truck, start up, drives
flawlessly. Drive rest of way to dump, drive home. On last leg home I put
the truck in 1 (max regen) and tried to break it by flooring it, then
letting off (loading the driveline with max power, followed by max regen).
Not even a click or a clack.
What the heck is going on? I know it's not time that fixes the truck; last
time this happened it was dead as doornail even in the driveway. After
dropping the U joints and replacing them it was still weird till I jacked
up one side then the other. Then it magically started working again.
Is it possible the differential is blown? Anyone know much about these
things?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I haven't been following this thread closely, but this sounds like an AC
set up?
Yes, 50kw Vector controlled.
The slow reverse when fwd could be a form of single phasing or lost
position encoder information. ???
...
Ya know, I *totally* forgot about that. When the Dolphin on the Prizm
loses it's encoder, it moves at a speed of <1mph. Maybe on this truck
(which has a different state machine to control the 3 phase) it crawls
at a really slow speed, then goes bananas at the motor level.
This would explain my number one insanity question: If the transmission
is stuck between gears then why the heck would it ever come out of this?
And why would the truck move at all up to the shudder point? Can
torque fiddle a transmission like this, and if so why would it not
happen on the road?
And if it was torque, why would it happen with the motor in reverse,
when the torque is backwards from forwards? Same way, truck still moves
in "reverse" when it shudders, even with the motor control in reverse.
I'll go out this morning, disconnect the encoder, and see what happens.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you, thank you!
That worked pretty nicely! It is 3ohms when off instead of 5.2k or 1.3k
however 2.4k-2.7k ohms when full on :-(
So either my potbox is worn or I have the wrong one which since it is 20 years
old if it is new or of unknown origens if replaced by one of the many previous
owners either is pretty likely.
However the great news is it is back to where it was before I had the clutch
issues. Actually it is alot better now :-) I'm probably going to order a proper
new 0-5k.
Thanks again for the help.
Mark Hastings
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2006 10:22:21 AM
Subject: Re: Do I have a bad potbox?
Hello Mark,
The potbox should normally read from 0 to 5k ohms. Sometimes you may get
one that may start out at 1 to 4990 or something like that.
To adjust the pot, just loosen the screw on the lever, so it will stop
against the stops at the ohms reading you want.
I have mine set at 1 ohm at off and 4999 ohms full on. My controller comes
on at 150 ohms, so there is some movement of the accelerator linkage before
it gets there. This allows me to have a soft start instead of a jerking type
of start if you are right at the start point.
The Curtis potbox which is wire through the micro switch is normally use for
slow speed fork lifts of golf carts. It allows for very little movement of
the accelerator linkage and limits the speeds of these rigs.
For a EV you can by pass this limit switch if the micro switch is not use to
turn on and off a main contactor. Sometimes these limits switches are used
to activate a main contactor first before applying power to the motor
controller, thus providing a quick emergency power off system.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: Do I have a bad potbox?
> The potbox on my S-15 pickup is wired through the microswitch which I
> found odd.
> With the microswitch off, my foot off the pedal, it presents the curtis
> with 5.2k ohms. It doesn't move so I'm thinking the curtis sees it as out
> of range and doesn't go.
> When I push slightly and get the microswitch off it goes right up to 1.4k
> ohms.
> At maximum the potbox is at 2.7k ohms.
>
> If I bypass the microswitch it starts out at 800 ohms which is enough to
> spin up the motor. The reason I found all of this out was that I was
> hoping to put a 1k ohm resistor parallel to the potbox when in reverse.
> I never measured a potbox before but I always assumed 0-5k meant it starts
> at 0 then maxes at 5K which seems to match what the curtis manual says. Am
> I stuck just buying a new one or is there some adjustment for this if it
> is off?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Hastings
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone,
I've been driving my recently completed EV. ok its not
complete, its just licensed, still has some work to be
done. so any way, I'm using a Zapi H2B w/regen. when I
let go of the throttle the reversing contactors kick
in and they sometimes get stuck, if I let go of the
throttle at higher speeds(<30mph). then I'm that guy
that has to jump out in the middle of traffic and pry
his relays lose. does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks
Brian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Second that. If you're old enough you may remember you had to
pay a month worth salary to buy a hand held calculator when they
were introduced to masses in 70's.
Remember the cost if first digital watches? Now my 6 years old gets
one for free as a toy with every $2 kid's hamburger at McDonalds...
So, jsut wait.
Victor
Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: EV's make it to the comics
I take you havent read Elon Musk's business plan on this yet
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/index.php?p=8&js_enabled=1
They ARE going for 30K, eventually, but you have to start from
somewhere. And the math on acceptable batteries currently strongly
suggests starting at the high end.
-kert
Remember the Selecta Vision? Or whatEVer it was called. Home VCR,
top loader, that was the sise of a suitcase and weighed as much as a small
locomotive? And cost 1200 bux! Now they almost give them to you at Wal*Mart
when ya walk in.I'm running a Radio Crap DVD player that, with rebate cost
20 bux! It, unlike my #$%^& CD players, still works! I can live with the
miniture remote with a zillion buttons that really don't DO anything.
Back to the point; sorta, the new stuff is pricy, I guess we could
consider the EV an "Electronic" gadget?Like a BIG HDWhatever screen TV, EVen
they are coming down in price, as pix size grows.60 an' 70 dollar VHS and
DVD tapes are only a few bux, now. With todays "Music" they should PAY you
to take them!
Seeya at Woodburn(PIR)
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the definition of direct drive used by most on this
list is incorrect. If one doesn't have to shift (a motor
is linked to the wheels through a fixed gear set), they call it
"direct drive".
A direct drive technically is only a motor (+ supporting
electronics) directly linked to a [drive] wheel, so the rotor
runs at the same speed as the wheel.
Really, 2 types of setups qualify:
1. A hub motor. Doesn't have a shaft per se, by definition
runs at the same speed as the wheel.
2. Any motor which extends its shaft to a wheel by
the half-shaft(s) and CV joints. This allow to reduce
unsprung weight by mounting motor in traditional
manner. Practically only multi-pole AC motors or BLDC
ones (with slow speed high torque) would be used, but
for definition this is not relevant.
If you have a fixed gear reduction between the
shaft and the wheel, or even 1:1 ratio, it is
NOT a direct drive system anymore, it is called a
fixed gear (or single gear) transmission.
It gets a bit fuzzy when you only have a differential
driven directly (no gear box) from the motor, as
John's White Zombie for instance. Everyone calls it
"direct drive", but it's not. He has reduction
gear. Technically nothing prevents using
2 different switchable gears build right into a
differential as many Porsches are arranged, now
you switch gears.
Non-switchable gear doesn't make drive "direct".
In short, direct drive doesn't use gears, period.
If you have at least one pair of gears between motor
ands wheel (diff or not), strictly speaking
it is no longer "direct drive". If you choose to use
this term, be prepared that someone may misinterpret
what you're saying.
Victor
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
Since we're discussing 1000 mile range EV's, I would like to throw out
some more things for out if the box ideas.
In my opinion I still feel the way to go on an electric vehicle is with
direct drive.
We have already seen the performance advantages with John and Matt's
cars.
The EV1 was also designed as direct drive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seppo, re-read what I say: "If the tranny is not
designed to take 3x torque and you do it just to cover
all speeds with no shifts (e.g. use normal ICE's
version of a gear box with one motor), you set yourself
up for potential trouble).
If it is *designed* for the job (multi-motor setup
spreading total torque among themselves), of course
there is no issue.
No people here use trannies *designed* to be an EV
trannies, there are no EV trannies available.
So, one have to consider limitations of conventional
trannies used with non-conventional (for ICE car this
tranny was made for) motor - electric one.
Victor
Seppo wrote:
Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti 4.8.2006 kello 4.43:
That's the point. If a tranny is designed to be used with
a motor (sepex or series, or any for that matter), no problem.
I was describing conversions where obsessed with power
people try to cover entire speed range on one gear.
Since high RPM is not available, they have to use tall
(like 4th) gear to start with so they can cruise at
70 mph and commutator does not fly apart. But then,
obviously take off on 4th gear is sluggish.
Solution? Increase motor starting torque so at the wheels
you have at least the same torque as when you take
off normally on 1st gear. If you have 3x ratio
difference between 1st and 4th gear, you must have 3x initial
torque the motor will provide. DC motors and powerful
controllers are not the issue anymore, you can get them.
But the tranny still meant to take 3x less torque from the
motor than you'd be doing, so you're 3x overloading it.
Porsche tranny might handle it all right, Geo metro might not.
That's what I'm talking about.
But Victor, in those cars that use two motors (or three?) to cover
entire speed range on one gear, the wear and load on the tranny is zero
since there is no tranny...
Seppo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I suspect one motor phase simply has intermittently bad connection.
You CAN drive on 2 remaining phases, but the symptoms will be
as you've described.
Victor
Christopher Zach wrote:
Ok, this is getting weird. I took the 94 S10 truck over to the dump
today. Loaded the bed with some sticks, junk, and the like, nothing
serious. Truck runs fine.
Went over some railroad tracks bump bump bump (hard). Truck then spins
the motor without the wheels. Pull over, massive thunking from the
driveline when I try to go forward or reverse. Look under the truck, the
main axle doesn't seem to be screwed up, but is moving in fits and starts.
Very fustrated, floor it. Truck shudders a *LOT* and in forward starts
to go backwards. In reverse it starts to go forwards (as in crawls
barely). Great-ola.
Call wife, walk to corner to get street names for tow truck. Walk back,
when I get to the truck I climb on the rear bumper and jump up and down
in fustration. Rear of truck goes up and down. Get in truck, start up,
drives flawlessly. Drive rest of way to dump, drive home. On last leg
home I put the truck in 1 (max regen) and tried to break it by flooring
it, then letting off (loading the driveline with max power, followed by
max regen). Not even a click or a clack.
What the heck is going on? I know it's not time that fixes the truck;
last time this happened it was dead as doornail even in the driveway.
After dropping the U joints and replacing them it was still weird till I
jacked up one side then the other. Then it magically started working again.
Is it possible the differential is blown? Anyone know much about these
things?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
please unsubscribe me from your list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forces are better than 200 Wh/mile. Gary Graunke's Insight
I think is ~200Wh/mile too. Depends how you drive really ;-)
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Brian,
If you can pry the contactor contacts apart, then you must have open type
contactor. If the contactor is of the type that is design for a EV, than it
will have spring tension adjustment. One spring tension is for how much
pressure it applies to the contacts when close and there is another set of
springs, that is trying to pull it open.
It is a balance between the opening springs and closing contact pressure.
To adjust you must have all plastic tuning screw drivers, the type that is
use in adjusting electronics components.
Apply power to the contactor and first adjust the pull back springs, the
one's that open the contacts after the power is off. Back off all the
tension on these springs and the contacts should still make contact.
Next after the pull back tension is all release, turn off the power to the
contactor, and start adjusting the pull back springs until the contactor
opens.
At this point, this may be not enough pull back tension, because you want
the contactor to open at a certain voltage drop. So, test out the contactor
action, to see if it will drop off.
Normally you have to give it a little more pull back tension.
A special made contactor made for a EV, is design to open at a much lower
voltage than what the lowest cut off voltage that is program into the
controller.
My contactors are not a 12 volt coil type, the coil voltages are the same as
the pack voltage. For example, my coils are at 180 volts and can stay on
all the way down to 12 volts. They will come back on when the pack voltage
raises to 160 volts, which is the controller cutout point.
So it takes a careful adjustments with a variable power supply to fine these
spring pull back points on a battery pack coil voltage rating.
If you are using a 12 volt coil, than just adjust the pullout tension so it
will drop out with a loss of coil power.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: sticky contactors
> Hello everyone,
> I've been driving my recently completed EV. ok its not
> complete, its just licensed, still has some work to be
> done. so any way, I'm using a Zapi H2B w/regen. when I
> let go of the throttle the reversing contactors kick
> in and they sometimes get stuck, if I let go of the
> throttle at higher speeds(<30mph). then I'm that guy
> that has to jump out in the middle of traffic and pry
> his relays lose. does anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
Ah, I recognize this car, and I think even this place :-)
With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
Efficiency with AC will be better but not by much if you
take regen out of equation. It is 3-4% better.
Now, with regen you get ~15% energy back in stop and go
driving, so overall Ah/mile for all day commuting end up
much better because of regen. But it's not strictly
AC over DC advantage, I'm sure you can do very
similar with SepEx DC in your ElCat van... if you
don't burn tires ;-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert,
That is a huge pack (72v, 200Ah) for a motorbike!
(My clubman pack is the same Wh - 144v, 100Ah)
Where would you fit it all on a bike?
It's the size of a large aquarium, and it weighs 120kg plus mounts and
cabling.
As for the price (I assume AU$), 12K is about right.
You might get them cheaper as part of a bulk (> 500 batts) purchase.
There have been some bad stories about TS batts.
They are certainly not racing batteries.
More like the equivalent of golf cart batts.
High capacity, but not very high current output (3C max).
Kokams are more appropriate for a fast EV (7-10C max current) with
similar volume and weight to TS.
(They cost about 2x the TS price last time I looked)
A123s are for drag racers with their max 100C current.
(According to the graphs from the RC site posted recently, they stay
above 2.2v with a 40C discharge - that's 2.2v x 60A = 132W out of
something smaller than a D cell - if only they made EV sized batts that
didn't need a whole bunch of fancy welding to connect them all together)
(I think you'd be looking at about US$60K for a similar sized pack)
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Chew
> Sent: Sunday, 6 August 2006 10:58 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
>
>
> HI Mark,
>
> I enquired about thundersky batts directly through their
> sales email. And i
> was quoted aroun 12K for the pack i am after, 72 volt @200Ah. Wow!
>
> the reason for building my motorbike is because i want
> another project!
>
> My dad said a firm "No" to my clubman idea runnin a hybrid
> setup. Cause its
> not my house and i should move out real soon cause my
> projects are starting
> to take over the house!
>
> So i said, if its not a car i gotta build the motorbike. Its
> sad to see a
> good frame go to waste.
>
> I was checking out the EL Chopper and E Ninja. They have
> reported good
> ranges but i really doubt it that they get them. Scott Hogan
> gets around 26
> K's from his 96 volt of Hawkers @ 26 Ahr. And i plan to
> upgrade the voltage
> of my yellow beast so i will need a new controller so
> therfore i can recycle
> the 72 volt alltrax to some good use along with the gauges,
> except the
> ammeter from my yellow car.
>
> I have just heard some terrible stories of thundersky batts
> and i am not
> sure if i want to go that route. But then, prove me wrong.
>
> Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Ryan and Roland,
That was helpful.
To make sure am I understand, is it acceptable to connecting the
positive for my HV loads (DC/DC and heater in particular) to the
battery side of the main contactor and the negative load wires to the
Zilla B- ?
On Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 12:51 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello John,
This means that no other load should be tap off the connection between
the
main contactor and B+ on the Zilla.
You can tap off the connection between the battery B+ of the main
contactor.
I have install two more contactors coming off the battery neg and pos.
This is the back up safety contactors. The ignition switch in the
ignition
position plus two console switches turns on these contactors.
I tap off after the safety contactors to run my accessory drive motors.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:11 PM
Subject: HV wiringquestion
Once again I'm a bit confused. I was reading my zilla manual when I
came across what appears to be an important statement.
The Zilla manual states:
"The Main contactor should only switch high voltage power to the
controller. No other accessories should be connected downstream of the
Main contactor."
What does it mean to be downstream of the Main contactor?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody try one of these?
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28
<http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28>
Supposed to have a peak power of 1.21 jigawatts. That's gotta be good
for something?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Anybody try one of these?
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28
<http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=28>
Supposed to have a peak power of 1.21 jigawatts. That's gotta be good
for something?
It worked for Doc Brown in back to the Future...
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Due to John Lussmyer's unfortunate fire he cannot fix my battery
monitor at this time. I damaged the unit when I was "cleaning up" the
installation. It runs, John's code seems to be intact, but I have
damaged the ADC function (not to handy for monitoring battery
voltages.) The monitor responds to input, knows how many batteries is
supposed to monitor, and flashes is running LED as it should. But it
fails to notice when I take batteries over 15 volts :-(
I was wondering if there are any list members who could download the
code and settings off my old chip and upload it to a new one. I can get
the new chip, but I'm not familiar with programming.
Alternately, the programming board and software package is only around
$65. If one or more list members wanted to tutor me on how to do this
myself I would be interested in learning more about microcontrollers.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI Mark,
hehe, I meant the 200 Ahr pack for my Yellow Beast. For the motorbike, i
need something a lot smaller, prob in the 80 Ahr range. But still going to
cost me an Arm and possibly a leg.
I am in the process of tracking down parts for my clubman on the side while
i build my motorbike. I am looking for the etek motors, but no one seems to
have them, if they do , they'll be friggin expensive.
Cheers
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 05:36:55 +1000
Hi Robert,
That is a huge pack (72v, 200Ah) for a motorbike!
(My clubman pack is the same Wh - 144v, 100Ah)
Where would you fit it all on a bike?
It's the size of a large aquarium, and it weighs 120kg plus mounts and
cabling.
As for the price (I assume AU$), 12K is about right.
You might get them cheaper as part of a bulk (> 500 batts) purchase.
There have been some bad stories about TS batts.
They are certainly not racing batteries.
More like the equivalent of golf cart batts.
High capacity, but not very high current output (3C max).
Kokams are more appropriate for a fast EV (7-10C max current) with
similar volume and weight to TS.
(They cost about 2x the TS price last time I looked)
A123s are for drag racers with their max 100C current.
(According to the graphs from the RC site posted recently, they stay
above 2.2v with a 40C discharge - that's 2.2v x 60A = 132W out of
something smaller than a D cell - if only they made EV sized batts that
didn't need a whole bunch of fancy welding to connect them all together)
(I think you'd be looking at about US$60K for a similar sized pack)
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Chew
> Sent: Sunday, 6 August 2006 10:58 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
>
>
> HI Mark,
>
> I enquired about thundersky batts directly through their
> sales email. And i
> was quoted aroun 12K for the pack i am after, 72 volt @200Ah. Wow!
>
> the reason for building my motorbike is because i want
> another project!
>
> My dad said a firm "No" to my clubman idea runnin a hybrid
> setup. Cause its
> not my house and i should move out real soon cause my
> projects are starting
> to take over the house!
>
> So i said, if its not a car i gotta build the motorbike. Its
> sad to see a
> good frame go to waste.
>
> I was checking out the EL Chopper and E Ninja. They have
> reported good
> ranges but i really doubt it that they get them. Scott Hogan
> gets around 26
> K's from his 96 volt of Hawkers @ 26 Ahr. And i plan to
> upgrade the voltage
> of my yellow beast so i will need a new controller so
> therfore i can recycle
> the 72 volt alltrax to some good use along with the gauges,
> except the
> ammeter from my yellow car.
>
> I have just heard some terrible stories of thundersky batts
> and i am not
> sure if i want to go that route. But then, prove me wrong.
>
> Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
Search for local singles online @ Lavalife
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D23198&_t=751140432&_r=emailtaglines_search_aug06&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mike, and everyone. Will do. Looks like the first change
needs to be the controller.
Appreciate all the feedback.
Curtis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 3:08 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration
Curtis,
As Mr. Spammers pointed out your Curtis is only capable of 144Vx500A/742=92
H.P. If your gas engine put out that much then your
acceleration would probably be comparable.
Going up from there would be just as everyone has recommended, upsize your
controller to handle more of both volts and amps. You
can get maximum motor amps and still go easy on batteries by going with a
higher pack voltage. Say for instance that even with
the pack at full sag your pack voltage is still higher than your motor limit
of 160 V, then the controller can pulse width
modulate the current from the batteries at an average rate less than what is
being put into the motor. Take a look at some of the
simulations I ran at lower voltage and current limits on my Zilla at
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/
Also to, as was stated by David Roden, once you fix the 1 barrel carburator
problem your next limit will be the batteries capacity
to source current. One solution is to go with Gels or AGM's. Yes its true
as was stated that the Gel's typically have lower
current ratings than the AGM's but differences are ~800A vice ~1000A. Just
for an example my '88 Mitsu p/u
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756 weighs 4060 lbs. 1100 lbs of that is 16
9A31 AGM's. This is a 192V pack with ~68AH at the
1-Hr rate (guestimated). My range is 40 miles to 80% DOD and I don't get
passed by any cars getting on the highway. Now say you
already found a bigger controller. If you still wanted your 50 mile range
you could build a pack of 20 Deka 9A31's and your
battery weight would drop from 1700 lbs to 1380 lbs. With the 240V pack
your batteries would no longer limit you on your
acceleration. You would have full rated current to your motor at whatever
voltage the controller decides it needs to give that
current. Also with 240V you may never sag to the point where the controller
goes to full 100% PWM. If I were to guess it might
only hit 80% on a fresh pack, and in that case even Gels could be a good
fit. The gels would give you better cycle life than the
AGM's, but neither will be near your Trojans could provide. So for the
maintenance free'ness of the SLA's (both Gels and AGMS are
subsets of the group called Sealed Lead Acid) you would give up cycle life.
The Gels would give you better cycle life, the AGM's
give you more current capability.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Curtis Hollingshead
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:32 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
>
>
> Hello.
>
> My EV ('93 Toyota p/u) uses 24 Trojan T-145s (144V), and has a range of
> 50mi.
>
> I would love to reduce the weight as the batteries alone weigh 1700+lbs.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a maintenance-free, light weight
> battery solution with reasonable cost?
>
> I'd like to eliminate watering the batteries, and not have to worry about
> hydrogen offgassing, and if able to reduce the weight of my vehicle I
could
> increase my range significantly.
>
> Also my acceleration sucks. I'm usually passed by at least 6 or 7
vehicles
> before I can get up to speed in traffic.
>
> Is it better to hammer the pedal, draw more amps at first to get up to
> speed, or take 'er easy and baby it up to speed taking much longer?
>
> I'm running a Curtis controller, and ADC 9" motor, that I thought should
be
> able to have my EV screaming down the road....? So either something is
off,
> or the weight in the bed of the truck is holding me back.
>
> Not sure how the big boys are able to achieve the tire smoking power they
> do.
>
> Suggestions/thoughts?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Curtis.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can help. I've got a bunch of Tiny26s laying
around, so if John is able to email the the file, I
can program a few and mail them to you. Otherwise,
contact me off-list and I'll give you my postal
address. This is assuming that John didn't lock out
reading of his code...
- Steven Ciciora
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Due to John Lussmyer's unfortunate fire he cannot
> fix my battery
> monitor at this time. I damaged the unit when I was
> "cleaning up" the
> installation. It runs, John's code seems to be
> intact, but I have
> damaged the ADC function (not to handy for
> monitoring battery
> voltages.) The monitor responds to input, knows how
> many batteries is
> supposed to monitor, and flashes is running LED as
> it should. But it
> fails to notice when I take batteries over 15 volts
> :-(
>
> I was wondering if there are any list members who
> could download the
> code and settings off my old chip and upload it to a
> new one. I can get
> the new chip, but I'm not familiar with programming.
>
> Alternately, the programming board and software
> package is only around
> $65. If one or more list members wanted to tutor me
> on how to do this
> myself I would be interested in learning more about
> microcontrollers.
>
> Thanx,
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it is the same as connecting to the main battery pack. Should have a
circuit breaker or fuse and maybe a contactor rated at the load you want to
run. Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: HV wiringquestion
> Thanks Ryan and Roland,
>
> That was helpful.
>
> To make sure am I understand, is it acceptable to connecting the
> positive for my HV loads (DC/DC and heater in particular) to the
> battery side of the main contactor and the negative load wires to the
> Zilla B- ?
>
>
> On Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 12:51 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello John,
> >
> > This means that no other load should be tap off the connection between
> > the
> > main contactor and B+ on the Zilla.
> >
> > You can tap off the connection between the battery B+ of the main
> > contactor.
> > I have install two more contactors coming off the battery neg and pos.
> >
> > This is the back up safety contactors. The ignition switch in the
> > ignition
> > position plus two console switches turns on these contactors.
> >
> > I tap off after the safety contactors to run my accessory drive motors.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:11 PM
> > Subject: HV wiringquestion
> >
> >
> >> Once again I'm a bit confused. I was reading my zilla manual when I
> >> came across what appears to be an important statement.
> >>
> >> The Zilla manual states:
> >> "The Main contactor should only switch high voltage power to the
> >> controller. No other accessories should be connected downstream of the
> >> Main contactor."
> >>
> >> What does it mean to be downstream of the Main contactor?
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
What diode would be a good match to the coil on a 12 Volt
Curtis/Albright contactor? One of our chapter members is adding one
to an EV and doesn't have the diode.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Paul,
Is the chip a DIP package or surface mount?
If it's a DIP or a socketed DIP, it will be much easier to do (I'm
assuming it is since you don't mention desoldering)
If you want to program the new chip yourself I can reassure you that it
would not be very difficult to do if you have a little general technical
knowledge.
The board doesn't happen to have a header or holes labelled "JTAG", does
it? That would be even easier as you can make/buy a parallel port JTAG
programmer. I don't know the specifics about the tiny26 though, I admit
(it's method of programming..)
--
Martin K
Paul G. wrote:
Hi,
Due to John Lussmyer's unfortunate fire he cannot fix my battery
monitor at this time. I damaged the unit when I was "cleaning up" the
installation. It runs, John's code seems to be intact, but I have
damaged the ADC function (not to handy for monitoring battery
voltages.) The monitor responds to input, knows how many batteries is
supposed to monitor, and flashes is running LED as it should. But it
fails to notice when I take batteries over 15 volts :-(
I was wondering if there are any list members who could download the
code and settings off my old chip and upload it to a new one. I can
get the new chip, but I'm not familiar with programming.
Alternately, the programming board and software package is only around
$65. If one or more list members wanted to tutor me on how to do this
myself I would be interested in learning more about microcontrollers.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is stretching way back, and I don't see the Radio
Shack catalog anywhere, but I'm thinking it's like a
1N4004 or so. It needs a voltage rating higher than
the pack...?
Paging Lee A. Hart on this one...
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> What diode would be a good match to the coil on a 12
> Volt
> Curtis/Albright contactor? One of our chapter
> members is adding one
> to an EV and doesn't have the diode.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate,
> not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 6, 2006, at 3:27 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
What diode would be a good match to the coil on a 12 Volt
Curtis/Albright contactor? One of our chapter members is adding one
to an EV and doesn't have the diode.
The one in my buggy came with a diode connected. The diode is a 1N5404.
Hope this helps,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FROM PART ONE:
It is about 6:30pm when we get there and the line to get in is really long
and slow moving. It is a maximum attendance night for drag racing, the track
will be packed. Gary Grauke is already in line driving his Honda Insight EV
with Siemens AC drive.
Dave Cloud is also there with his multi-motored Geo Metro.
Slowly but surely we trickle into the track...
END OF PART ONE<
---------------------------
PART TWO:
As we gather in the pit area, we grab our real estate surrounding the main
power source close to the track tower.
On behalf of NEDRA I would like to thank Rich Rudman in particular for
coming through with the best high-throughput, portable, EV charging station
I have ever seen, and not a generator in sight! Just a sea of green boxes
and lots of large cables. A big change from previous EVents thanks to Rich.
And also thanks to the great folks at PIR for providing access to the
high-output feeds at the facility. The new Manzanita Micro breaker box with
four 14-50 outlets fed by monster 4/0 input cables worked perfectly. Rich
was an excellent safety monitor and didn't need to bring out the 2x4 even
once :^D
As a dress rehearsal for charging at the National EVent, it couldn't have
been done better.
The area surrounding the power source is about 50' by 50' with fire lanes on
three sides and more parking on the other. We move a some picnic benches
that are around the perimeter and place John's mobile workshop in the corner
of our area.
The tech lanes and staging lanes are packed with vehicles, it is after 8pm
when many of us start to work our way through the staging lanes after
getting through tech.
The Fiat Spider had never been down a dragstrip before and there was little
time for preparation. It was having some battery and other issues and the
performance was substantially below optimum levels. In retrospect it may
have be better represented for display only, but I had a great time going
through the motions of drag racing as it had been quite a few years since I
had run on a strip.
In the staging lanes there were a lot of blank looks as folks observed us
moving silently forward. I kept the hood open much of the time and attracted
considerable interest and questions.
We all had vehicle problems that night likely due to minimal lead time to
prepare. Many of us did substantial thrashing together of vehicles during
the week before just to get there with an operable EV. I believe that three
or four folks had batteries let go during their runs.
Our film maker from down under did get great footage of all the EVs, the
charging setup, and the Zombie beating a hot Mustang.
A good thing that happened was that a new NEDRA record was set. Using an
unusual setup
including 10 motors, those being 8 Eteks and 2 Advanced DCs.
Here are the details-
Class & Voltage Division - MC/F
Vehicle, Driver, Owner - 1999 Geo Metro 120V, Driver: Steve Nash, Owner:
Dave Cloud
Time (sec) - 14.55
Speed (mph) - 97.33
Event, Track, and Date - Wayland Invitational II, Portland International
Raceway, Portland, OR. 7/29/06
Many of us got in two or three runs at most due to the crowded track
conditions and late arrival. Before the end of the evening's racing we were
mostly done due to breakage and battery issues. Even the Zombie managed to
open a battery.
It took us quite a while to get wrapped up and loaded up, we were some of
the last folks left at the track as 1am was approaching.
There was just a handful of us that made it to the local Sheri's restaurant
for our after-race get together/dinner. Included was Father Time, John
Wayland, Tim Brehm, Jay Donnaway, and Chris Brune IIRC.
But... my day was not over yet. As FT went to the Wayland's to catch a few
zzz's in his car, I headed south with the Fiat on the hook to take it to
it's home and top off the charge. I quietly returned John's Jeep (after 2:30
am), and FT and I headed north where I finally made it back to Olympia about
5am. I think I slept for about 12 hours.
The NEDRA Late Night Nationals promise to be a even longer strange trip, but
running the course of three days instead of one.
I hope I will be able to get some sleep :^D
END<
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
