EV Digest 5744
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Drill the motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Are Anderson connectors always appropriate
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Another Anderson Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Another Anderson Question
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: You know you're a list member when...
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Are Anderson connectors always appropriate
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Drill the motor
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) NiFe Batteries
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Insane ideas! =)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: NiFe Batteries
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: You know you're a list member when...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NiFe Batteries
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: questions from a newbie
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
by "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV music
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: X1 doing 11.9 1/4 mile video (was The Wrightspeed X1, a different
class of c
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: NiFe Batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Science Channel Shows NEDRA Power of DC Race
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Are Lithium-Ion Electric Cars Safe?
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Eliica race video at youtube
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Science Channel Shows NEDRA Power of DC Race
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Corvette with 1.3L Hybrid
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Well, I now know that the motor encoder is the source of the truck
> problems. Unfortunately the genius who built this car took apart a
> standard HP encoder and drilled the alignment holes such that
> you have to take the whole thing apart and install it bare instead
> of using the case's mounting ears.
>
> Totally stupid. And totally unlike every other Hughes Dolphin
> install I have seen.
>
> So I have two choices: Either I can drill holes in the new
> encoder, or I can drill out new mounting holes in the motor.
>
> Motor casing is AL; I guess if I punch through I wreck it. I
> have drills and collets; what would you do?
You are in the enviable position of having seen other, "proper",
installs, so if the motor (case) in this vehicle is the same as that in
the other installs you should be safe drilling new holes in the same
location as the "proper" installs, and of the same depth.
Not having any idea of exactly what the encoder looks like or how it
mounts to this motor vs the "proper" install way makes it difficult, but
if you have doubts about the similarity of this motor case to the others
(the "genius" who built this truck may have had a good reason for
mounting the encoder differently even though it made both his and your
lives more difficult), perhaps it is possible to fabricate a small
adapter/bracket that mounts to the motor using the existing holes, and
provides either holes or studs in the proper location for the encoder
case to attach to? I'm envisioning something like a more-or-less flat
piece of 1/16" thick aluminum sheet with holes for mounting it to the
motor and a pair of countersunk machine screws installed from the motor
side for the encoder case to slide and then nuts and washers installed
to secure it.
If the housing of the properly oriented encoder would obstruct access to
the original mounting holes, then install the bracket to the motor
first, and then secure the encoder to it; if the original holes are
accessible even with the encoder in place, then attach bracket to the
encoder first and then install the assembly to the motor.
Good luck!
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My suggestion: keep it simple.
Place connectors where you need them.
It is rather easy to add one later
if you find out that you need to work
on (for example) your contactors.
But it usually is also easy to unbolt
a cable from the last battery, or any
battery cable - as long as you do not
have ground faults, the results are the
same. Measure with a digital volt meter
before touching, just like a pro would.
If necessary and you're not sure, ground
the cables before working on them - if there
is still anything on, it will disappear and
if its a high current path, your fuse may
blow, but that's better than that your candle
is extinguished.
You can also ask why professional EVs do not
have high-power connectors. My truck does not
have any disconnect in the high current path
other than the:
- contactors
- motor/grid changeover switch (for high power charging)
- battery box ON/OFF switch
I know there are EV's with hundreds of connectors, several
in the high current path.
As you already hinted - every connector is an increase
in resistance. not much, but it depends on how dirty it
gets over time.
In my EV I had to pull the battery box ON/OFF switch and
clean the contacts or I would have melted the switch at some
point of time - too much resistance from dirty contacts.
(Note: this is a 100A continuous switch for my 200A max
312V 50kW AC drive.)
YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:12 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Are Anderson connectors always appropriate
I'm still thinking about my wiring and I have a question about Anderson
connectors. I was playing
with the idea of putting an SB-350 connector between my pack and the
contactors so I could easily
disconnect the pack if I need to. Right now I'm having a hard time thinking
of a reason to do
this. Safety while working on the electronics? The contactors will provide
the disconnect, do I
need more than that? I can always unbolt the cable from the contactor, but
that leaves an exposed
connector hangin loose.
But if I do put an appropriately sized SB-350 in my 2/0 cables, will this
create excess resistance
in the line? It certainly will be more resistance than the cable itself. Do
Anderson connectors
heat up under load?
Much ado about nothing?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today seems to be the day for Anderson Connector questions. I've got an
SB50 with lugs for #6 wire. The documentation seems to say to strip
9/16-inch, but the depth of the hole in the lug is only 7/16-inch. Does the
SB50 require 1/8 of bare wire showing to make it fit, or should I just strip
7/16 of an inch?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 10, 2006, at 12:29 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:
Today seems to be the day for Anderson Connector questions. I've got
an
SB50 with lugs for #6 wire. The documentation seems to say to strip
9/16-inch, but the depth of the hole in the lug is only 7/16-inch.
Does the
SB50 require 1/8 of bare wire showing to make it fit, or should I just
strip
7/16 of an inch?
The connector starts out showing 1/8in of bare wire, but when you crimp
it, the connector gets longer. (You reduced the diameter and the
material needs to go somewhere.)
If you've got a narrow crimper (like a Bill Dube bolt-cutter special)
and need to make two crimps, you should make the first crimp farther
from the insulation, so the connector grows towards the insulation and
covers that gap.
Or at least that's how I reasoned while making some battery cables
recently. Am I right, gang?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know your a list member when you spend your free time thinking up
sayings that start with, you know your a list member when....
How about this one.....
when your wife who couldn't care less about EV's mentions upon seeing a
"different" style of car.. " that would make a nice EV" !
Really, I've had that happen.
Jim wrote;
> One last fun fact is, I've done as many if not more
motors for Florida than any other state so far, go figure. As a matter of
fact there will be a couple going that way soon 8^ )
Cool, now if Jim would just get off his lazy ass and build and deliver some
motors down under... ;-)
Stay Charged!
Hump
*Notice the Emoticon*
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> I'm still thinking about my wiring and I have a question
> about Anderson connectors. I was playing with the idea
> of putting an SB-350 connector between my pack and the
> contactors so I could easily disconnect the pack if I
> need to. Right now I'm having a hard time thinking of a
> reason to do this. Safety while working on the electronics?
> The contactors will provide the disconnect, do I need
> more than that? I can always unbolt the cable from the
> contactor, but that leaves an exposed connector hangin
> loose.
>
> But if I do put an appropriately sized SB-350 in my 2/0
> cables, will this create excess resistance in the line?
> It certainly will be more resistance than the cable
> itself. Do Anderson connectors heat up under load?
Last question first; yes, Andersons do heat up under load. And, an
SB350 is rated for 350A, which is more than you are likely to be drawing
for any significant duration, but less than the peak currrent you may
pull.
Checking the datasheet:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pdf/DS-SB350REV01.pdf>
It seems the contact resistance is spec'd at 50 micro-ohms, so there
would be a drop of about 0.05V across them at 1000A. You'd have to add
the loss associated with the crimp connections between the Anderson
contacts and the cables; if we assume the crimps lose the same as the
contacts, we have a total of 6 0.05V drops, which is 0.3V or 0.15% loss
on a pack that is 200V under 1000A load.
With 2/0 cable, the connector will exhibit a 30C temperature rise at
250A continuous, and is good for over 1000A for more than 2s at a time.
The SB350 is rated for operation up to 105C, so it could carry 250A
continuously in up to a 75C (167F) ambient.
As for whether the SB350 is needed; no, it isn't; it is a convenience
thing. As you note, *if* the contactors are open, then you can safely
work on the electronics downstream of them without disconnecting the
pack. The if here is because you need to have contactors in both the
pack +ve and -ve lines to completely disconnect the pack, and you need
to know that neither has welded closed (as long as one is operable, you
may not notice the other welded closed unless you specifically check).
You could disconnect cables from the contactor, or at the batteries
(provided the batteries are accessible), but either of these means
wielding a wrench around live wiring and this is where the probability
of an accident is greatest (though still low provided you have equipped
yourself with a set of insulated tools for battery work, etc.). Being
able to simply yank an Anderson connector apart and then *know* that
there is no traction power anywhere under the hood, and not have any
live wires dangling is a pretty attractive option for me.
I suppose that someone really concerned with squeezing every last 0.1%
of efficiency from the system wouldn't want to add the loss associated
with an extra set of contacts, but I personally wouldn't consider the
loss a large enough liability to outweigh the benefit of the connector.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The guy that sold me my servo motors, for the cnc, mounted the
encoders to a piece of G10/FR4 then epoxied it to the motor end bell.
It's held up for years. The encoder would just unscrew from the
G10/FR4 for replacement.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, I now know that the motor encoder is the source of the truck
> problems. Unfortunately the genius who built this car took apart a
> standard HP encoder and drilled the alignment holes such that you have
> to take the whole thing apart and install it bare instead of using the
> case's mounting ears.
>
> Totally stupid. And totally unlike every other Hughes Dolphin install I
> have seen.
>
> So I have two choices: Either I can drill holes in the new encoder,
or I
> can drill out new mounting holes in the motor.
>
> Motor casing is AL; I guess if I punch through I wreck it. I have
drills
> and collets; what would you do?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know a person who has for sale Eagle Picher Nickel Iron batteries. Total
about 50. Some 30 are never used in orginal boxes. Anyone interested?
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oooh, brainstorming!
Making up ideas is fun and easy.
On Aug 9, 2006, at 9:50 PM, Alan Grimes wrote:
Jack Murray wrote:
You'd want a BIG FAT AC Motor with polished cooling fins. even though
the idea of seeing sparks from the brushes was a feature, you'd
probably
want the motor sealed up.
Jack
AC motors generally don't have brushes.
Seeing sparks from your commutator is usually bad. You want to avoid
it if you want your motor to last a long time.
Sealed, yes.
You want minimal circulation in the comutator housing, even to the
point
of trying to seal it at the bearing and attaching a vacuum pump. -- I
think. no experience.
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Why would you want to evacuate
the commutator housing? Assuming we're talking about a DC motor here,
that's the part that gets hot. You need airflow through there to keep
it cool.
If you seal up the motor (which is done sometimes, for motors that run
in hostile environments) it needs pretty heavy-duty cooling. Such as a
liquid-cooling system with a radiator.
The design I sketched out would have both the glass/clear synthetic
housing of the comutator itself. (heck, transparent aluminum is an
available choice these days!)
If you want folks to be able to see the commutator, just leave it open.
But if it's not sparking, it's not very interesting.
How about making a light show out of it? Put LEDs on something that's
rotating, and have them light up in patterns. Spell words, etc.
Something that's rotating? Perhaps the inside of the comm (difficult),
driveshaft, a disk or cylinder attached to the tail shaft of the motor.
Put a strobe in the case and sync it to the rotational speed of the
motor, so the comm appears to be stationary.
Or, if you want sparks, get a neon sign transformer and (safely) make
some outside of the motor.
My idea for the rest of the car was a bit radical and I'd have to
resort
to sketches to show you what my fevered immagination came up with,
lemme
see if I can sketch it in a list-friendly way....
Can't help here, sorry. Except to point out that 1in thick plastic is
going to be very heavy and expensive. You could get a similar (or
perhaps superior) effect by building an open frame vehicle and glassing
in the space between the frame members. Think Victorian train station,
or stained glass window.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are they and how much does he want?
--- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know a person who has for sale Eagle Picher Nickel Iron batteries. Total
> about 50. Some 30
> are never used in orginal boxes. Anyone interested?
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: You know you're a list member when...
<<I've been informed by some that my first entry with this thread skated on
some very thin ice.>>
Skating on the thin ice of political correctness is a good thing.
This list needed a little boost anyway.
Thanks for the thread, Jim, and whatever you do, dont apologize!
Ben
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM.
All on demand. Always Free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Does that mean that my 180 v (30 trojan T-125's) system using
> a 1k Zilla can put out ( 180v x 1000A /742) 242 HP?
Nope. It means that the *maximum* possible input power to the Z1K in
your vehicle is this much. Realistically, your floodeds will be sagging
badly at 1000A load, and you might have something nearer to 1/2 nominal
pack voltage available:
Finally, the conversion factor between Watts and HP is 746W/HP, not 742,
though this makes far less difference to the result ;^>
Max possible Z1K input power in your vehicle: (180v * 1000A)/746 = 241HP
Realistic Z1K input power in your vehicle: (90V * 1000A)/746 = 120.6HP.
The motor mechanical output will be somewhat less again, being between
about 50-85% of the electrical input depending upon the operating point,
which gets you about 60-103HP at the "crank", and then you've got the
driveline losses which reduce it by perhaps another 5% to what you have
at the rear wheels.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on how much and how much to ship. And specs if there are any, weight,
Ah, Peukert, etc.
--- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know a person who has for sale Eagle Picher Nickel Iron batteries. Total
> about 50. Some 30 are never used in orginal boxes. Anyone interested?
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: questions from a newbie
> Hi Philippe
>
> I had a look at the Reva. Size would be OK (especially for parking) but
> range & speed too low to be practical for me.
>
> Ron
> Yeah! Like all the OTHER NEV's You can't really USE them, in any safety
or seriousness on any Normal highway. I often think NEV's were created to "
prove" that EV's don't belong on a highway.
" Golf Carts Can't be licenced, and Registered in Connecticut" To
quote sign in the DMV office.
And as Seth Rothenberg has found out something similar in New Jersey.No
EV's Ether can be registered?
Seeya
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:50 PM
> Subject: Re: questions from a newbie
>
>
> > Reva (G-wiz) are available in London, not a family car but probably a
good
> > commuter :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: questions from a newbie
> >
> >
> >> Geoff,
> >>
> >> My main practical obstacle to building an ev myself is not motivation ,
> > it's
> >> space which comes at a premium in the UK - it's a crowded island! I am
> >> hooked on the idea now. Apart from the obvious environmental reasons
for
> > EV,
> >> petrol (gas) costs about $7.5 per gal in the UK! Most of this is made
up
> > of
> >> fuel tax. EV's are at least twice as efficient as ICE and circumvent
both
> >> the fuel tax as well as the road tax in the UK.
> >>
> >> WKtEC has not hit the circuit in the UK yet but I know the jist of the
> >> story. I think the entrenched oil & car manufacture hegemony shown in
> > WKtEC
> >> is worse in the UK because of the amount of revenue the government
raises
> > in
> >> fuel tax. This was done ostensibly to discourage drivers from using
their
> >> cars and encourage them on to public transport. No-one can tell me that
> > the
> >> government is not addicted to this revenue source and whilst paying lip
> >> service to the environment will place whatever obstacles in the way of
> > mass
> >> production EV's to protect this revenue. All politicians by definition
> >> are
> >> lying thieving corrupt bastards! The desire to be a politician should
> >> automaticaly ban you from ever becoming one!
> >>
> >> My rant for the day but I guess I'm preaching to the converted.
> >>
> >> Ron
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Geoff Linkleter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 5:13 PM
> >> Subject: questions from a newbie
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ron, 2 thoughts
> >> >
> >> > (i) In my (limited) experience the cost of batteries is significantly
> >> > higher in the UK than is often talked about on the list.
> >> >
> >> > (ii) If you are not really keen on building an ev I would have
thought
> > the
> >> > best choice would be to look for a Citroen Berlingo or Saxo EV.
Either
> > of
> >> > these would just about meet your performance rerquirements and they
> >> > occasionally appear for sale, even on e-bay. There are several people
> >> > on
> >> > the list who can help you support one.
> >> >
> >> > You could even think about looking for one in France, where they are
> > more
> >> > common, if you could live with LHD. Phillipe could probably help.
> >> >
> >> > Geoff
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a good "rule of thumb" about voltage sagging? It seems as though
everyone here is speaking from emperical data about their own systems and
how they behave under load, which are great data points. But, I haven't
seen any hard facts about voltage sagging on the battery manufacturer's
websites.
Is there a standard measure of "Can draw X amps for Y seconds with Z%
voltage sag" where Y and Z may be "industry standard constants". I
assume "CCA" and "CA" are instantaneous peak amps, but there's never any
mention of how much sag, or how long the CA numbers can be sustained for.
Some really rough sagging numbers for AGM's vs. Gel vs. Flooded vs. Nicad
vs. LiIon vs. LiPoly would be really interesting.
Steve
On Thu, August 10, 2006 1:05 pm, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Rush wrote:
>
>
>> Does that mean that my 180 v (30 trojan T-125's) system using
>> a 1k Zilla can put out ( 180v x 1000A /742) 242 HP?
>
> Nope. It means that the *maximum* possible input power to the Z1K in
> your vehicle is this much. Realistically, your floodeds will be sagging
> badly at 1000A load, and you might have something nearer to 1/2 nominal
> pack voltage available:
>
> Finally, the conversion factor between Watts and HP is 746W/HP, not 742,
> though this makes far less difference to the result ;^>
>
> Max possible Z1K input power in your vehicle: (180v * 1000A)/746 = 241HP
>
>
> Realistic Z1K input power in your vehicle: (90V * 1000A)/746 = 120.6HP.
>
>
> The motor mechanical output will be somewhat less again, being between
> about 50-85% of the electrical input depending upon the operating point,
> which gets you about 60-103HP at the "crank", and then you've got the
> driveline losses which reduce it by perhaps another 5% to what you have at
> the rear wheels.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
There is enough documentation:
- the spec of the battery should show internal resistance,
so the sag is simply a matter of multiplying
- the CCA is specified as the current for 30 seconds where
the voltage stays over 8V (on a 12V battery) at 0F temp.
However, if yo umonitor batteries and their behavior, you will
see that there always is a secondary effect to the internal
resistance: the voltage continues to change for several seconds
after you applied a current change. It seems there is a
stratification-effect, maybe this is the Peukert-effect, that
makes the battery voltage difference always a little bit larger
than the initial effect which follows the internal resistance
pretty good.
So - first order approximation, say that you batteries have
5 mOhm internal resistance and are sitting at 12.5V:
at 1000A the voltage will sag to 12.5 - (1000 x 0.005) = 7.5V
but you will notice that within seconds the voltage will be
lower, more in the high 6 Volts.
As soon as you are drawing the batteries down to 1/2 voltage
you are at maximum power from the batteries - any lower and you
will only get less power from the batteries (and damage the
batteries, because you *generate* more power as heat in them
than you are drawing out of them.
Better to try and stay above the 8V (2/3) level, so you know
you are getting close to max power without burning the same
amount up inside your batteries.
My 110 Ah 12V AGMs are specified to have 4 mOhm resistance,
so drawing my controller's max 200A from them should
change their voltage by 0.8V initially, though I see the
volage always move quite a bit more in the next seconds.
BTW - batteries react different when they are over 80% full,
I have been able to push my pack to 420V at a 120A regen,
so that is about 16V per battery while I was expecting to
see the voltage change from 340 to 353V (13.1V to 13.6V)
but the full batteries could not take the charge....
(I have since restricted regen when SOC is above 80%)
Sagging is of course the opposite direction, but I would
expect that over the course of different SOC the response
will also differ, to the same current draw.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Lacy
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
Is there a good "rule of thumb" about voltage sagging? It seems as though
everyone here is speaking from emperical data about their own systems and
how they behave under load, which are great data points. But, I haven't
seen any hard facts about voltage sagging on the battery manufacturer's
websites.
Is there a standard measure of "Can draw X amps for Y seconds with Z%
voltage sag" where Y and Z may be "industry standard constants". I
assume "CCA" and "CA" are instantaneous peak amps, but there's never any
mention of how much sag, or how long the CA numbers can be sustained for.
Some really rough sagging numbers for AGM's vs. Gel vs. Flooded vs. Nicad
vs. LiIon vs. LiPoly would be really interesting.
Steve
On Thu, August 10, 2006 1:05 pm, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Rush wrote:
>
>
>> Does that mean that my 180 v (30 trojan T-125's) system using
>> a 1k Zilla can put out ( 180v x 1000A /742) 242 HP?
>
> Nope. It means that the *maximum* possible input power to the Z1K in
> your vehicle is this much. Realistically, your floodeds will be sagging
> badly at 1000A load, and you might have something nearer to 1/2 nominal
> pack voltage available:
>
> Finally, the conversion factor between Watts and HP is 746W/HP, not 742,
> though this makes far less difference to the result ;^>
>
> Max possible Z1K input power in your vehicle: (180v * 1000A)/746 = 241HP
>
>
> Realistic Z1K input power in your vehicle: (90V * 1000A)/746 = 120.6HP.
>
>
> The motor mechanical output will be somewhat less again, being between
> about 50-85% of the electrical input depending upon the operating point,
> which gets you about 60-103HP at the "crank", and then you've got the
> driveline losses which reduce it by perhaps another 5% to what you have at
> the rear wheels.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: EV music
> I was going to write the exact same post (Most appropriate song I bet
> you've never heard) about Electric Version by The New Pornographers:
>
> the sound of god is the screech of tires
> lights and magnets, bolts and wires
> strayed from the road, this very one
>
> still to come
> the sound of tires is the sound of god
> the electric version
> the power and blood will pulse through your song
>
> just as long as it sounds lost
> streaming out of the magnets
>
> strung together like christmas lights
> twelve whole seconds of history might
> lead you from where you went off the track
> welcome back
>
> our electric version calls
> you alone to create the full
> spectrum of light
> so what could go wrong?
>
> just as long as it sounds lost
> streaming out of the magnets
>
> the card you're dealt by the crowd goes wild
> make believe you are an only child
> here are the clothes
> please put them on
>
> still to come
> a new parade of faith and sparks
> the electric version harks
> back to the day when there was no wrong
>
> just as long as it sounds lost
> streaming out of the magnets
>
> Steve
>
> Matt Kenigson wrote:
>
> > Couldn't resist. Was planning on lurking for a while before my first
> > post
> > but I know the most perfect track that I bet most of you have never
> > heard:
> >
> > Electromagnetism by Human Radio
> >
> > (R. Rice/K. Kennedy)
Snip-a-bit Huh? Must be ANOTHER Bob Rice???????????????
I think I could do better, though than all this? Maybe with a few
OTHER listers. Lee Hart?<g> "Edison Stout, who wouldn't check his Batteries
Out"J. Wayland's son is a pretty good musicion. Hmmm A EV Band? Playing at
PIR in the seventh inning(Run) stretch? It's fun to add your OWN words to an
existing song.
My two notes worth.
Bob
> > i'm a modern man looking for modern love
> > cookieookienookie
> > is all that i'm thinking of
> > got a hot little number flashing on my screen
> > think i'll leave a little message
> > on her answering machine
> > emotion's out of style
> > we got something stronger
> > electromagnetism
> > all this love n affection just leaves me cold
> > you know a heart of steel
> > will always beat a heart of gold
> > n when it's all said and done
> > i can forget the name
> > although the software's different
> > the current feels the same
> > emotion's out of style
> > we got something stronger
> > electromagnetism
> > some nights i lay awake and wonder
> > about these feelings i've never known
> > so many people at my fingertips
> > tell me
> > why am i alone?
> > electromagnetism
> >
> > On 8/9/06, Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> This is OT (Old Topic), but here's a recap and some new titles.
> >>
Trolley Car Swing; American Quartet. Another one!1912
> >> Jackson Browne - Running on Empty
> >> Eddy Grant - Electric Avenue
> >> Marcia Griffiths - Electric Boogie (AKA electric slide)
> >> Digital Explosion - Electric Dreams (techno)
> >> Master Zap - Electric Technology (techno)
> >> 311 - Electricity (metal)
> >> Duran Duran - Electric Barbarella
> >> Jimi Hendrix - Have You Ever Been (to Electric Lady Land?)
> >> Queensryche - Electric Requiem
> >> Deep Purple - Smoke on the Water (only if it's too deep!)
> >> Metallica - Motorbreath
> >> Beatles - Drive My Car
> >> Cake - Satan is My Motor (more anti ICE than EV - "but under my hood is
> >> internal combustion pow'r")
> >> Cake - Race Car Ya-Yas
> >> L'Trim - Cars With the Boom
> >> Swingers (soundtrack) - Car Train (instrumental)
> >> War - Low Rider (if you haven't replaced your shocks/springs)
> >> Adam Sandler - Piece of shit car (befor conversion!)
> >> Weird Al Yankovic - Stop Dragging My Car Around
> >>
> >> > NoFx - Electricity
> >> > Metallica - It's Electric
> >> > Black Sabboth - Electric funeral, EV1
> >> > U2 - the electric co.
> >> > U2 - Electrical Storm
> >> > Various - Electric Ave.
> >> > Judas Priest - Electric Eye
> >> > Oasis - She's Electric
> >> > White Zombie - Electric head 1 and 2
> >> > Metallica - Whiplash, EV related when riding in the White Zombie
> >> > Metallica - Battery, EV related? probably notMest - Electric baby -
> >> > could be applied to EV's OMD - Electricity
> >> > Kraftwerk - Electric Cafe
> >> > Moby - Electricity (should be good but can't remember hearing it)
> >>
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To me, it sounds like the squeal intensity is in time with the ICE
engine revs. My *guess* is that it's the ICE squealing.
-Mike
On 8/2/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The tire squeel may have something to do with the wet track. I could
not even tell which car was doing the squeeling. Ian said it would
have gone mid 11's with a dry track. Imagine if it had slicks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Aug 2006 at 14:19, Chet Fields wrote:
> And specs if there are any,
> weight, Ah, Peukert, etc.
FYI, Peukert's equation doesn't apply to nickel-based batteries. It describes
the behavior of lead-acid batteries only.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chris and all,
I am only getting audio on this link, are other's getting full video?
-Mike
On 8/10/06, Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You got it right Philippe.
The exploding battery is in many peoples mind when talking Lithium. It's
good that we have actually working showcases in media too. I think that
matters most. We all should forget that actually there are always at
least one engineer in the trunk in these demo vehicles. They do not work
100 000 miles without tinkering. Heck ... I bet even 1000 miles is
already something.
There are hazards with anything when you pack lots of energy in tense
package. What adds the scare is the dozens of burned vehicles and blown
cell phones all over world. Pioneers have their tests to do for
verifying the technology to others. Others fail and others succeed. It
just might be a matter of a single small detail.
When ACprop pulled their Lithium set in tZero down the drag strip... It
was verified technology. Financial back up in any EV tech is essential
and these back uppers are looking "the easy way out". They have other
obstacles in their mind. Mainly commercial and financial. Already
verified is the best way to go. The idea "Most profit in shortest time"
applies here again.
I think that is what differs most of us EVlisters from them. We have our
cause. A different cause. It's the thing which comes with the Grin.
Personlly my plain aim is to have a completely idiot proof Lithium
battery solution for EVs. So all avg Joes and Janes can get their EVs.
Opening the markets is not only a matter of range but mostly usability.
Safety should be a standard feature.
One technical point which makes the task even harder is the Din-thinking
as I say it. New tech should look, smell and operate as old convinient
one. Not very easily achieved. Pretty much the problem is quite similar
than in any conversion. You should make it to fit something existing
without compromises. Having specs from OEM... blah.. for get it.
Personally I have found it most convinient to have one Lithium block in
the car. It is just the most simplest way to achieve best thermal
balance. Distributed packs adds pain. Not possible in most of EVs.
Up to this date I have tested lots of Lithium cells in various EVs as
doing it as my full time job. From 2003 It has been a long perioid of
finding the path for better EV battery. Now I believe we are quite near.
BMS is no issue anymore. Latest Lithium cell chemistries I've tested
show already very high stability and durability. 150 000 miles on one
pack should not be a dream anymore. Compared to that the prices are not
looking that bad.
Demand for this tech is huge. Actually ridiculous. Frankly I don't
believe the supply will meet the demand for years. This fact has lured
many investors out of their lairs. Sammoning the money to small start
ups and gizmo shops. Sometimes they bet on companies which can actally
contribute something in technical respect.
Perhaps I wanted to insert this message to normal list-flow to keep some
hope to our cause too. FEVT is still up and kicking hard. At the moment
working mostly in healthcare energy solutions but as long it gets Zillas
to my test beds we're moving.
www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
-Jukka
fevt.com
Philippe Borges kirjoitti:
i vote for the integrated and garanted smart BMS reason.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: Are Lithium-Ion Electric Cars Safe?
I think it is funny that all of the high-profile "commercial" EVs
(ACP, Tesla, Wrightspeed, Venturi) all use the ACP designed packs of
laptop lithiums.
(note above - the commercial was in quotes :-)
All of the designed-for-EV Lithium battery manufacturers go to great
lengths on their websites to explain how their batteries are so much
safer than laptop or phone lithiums.
I wonder why Tesla etc chose the ACP multi-mini-cell packs over
something like Kokams?
Part of the deal for the ACP controller and motor?
BMS integrated with controller/charger electronics?
Who knows?
I just hope that the BMS does a good job of keeping the batts away from
the danger zone.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2006 1:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Are Lithium-Ion Electric Cars Safe?
Seen here:
http://www.techreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17250&ch=biztec
h&sc=&pg=1
or tinyURL here:
http://tinyurl.com/q6klk
A snip:
Thursday, August 03, 2006
Are Lithium-Ion Electric Cars Safe?
The use of a type of battery with a history of overheating raises
safety concerns.
By Kevin Bullis
Laptops equipped with lithium-ion batteries occasionally overheat and
catch fire. This has some people concerned about the use of this type
of battery in new electric sports cars and kits for converting
conventional cars and hybrid vehicles into all-electric cars.
It's an exciting time for electric vehicles -- with regular
announcements of increasing storage capacities for battery materials
(see "Battery Breakthrough") and exotic, high-priced vehicles
slated to
come onto the market, such as the recently announced sports car from
Tesla Motors of San Carlos, CA. But electric vehicles have failed in
the past. If they're going to succeed this time around,
they'll need to
win over the general consumer, and that will mean, among other things,
demonstrating that the powerful battery packs are safe.
[end of snip]
Tks
Lock
Human/electric hybrid in Toronto
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile +358-440-735705
phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdsy55s49Wo&mode=related&search=
Can anyone translate from Japanese?
I can't tell if there is any quarter mile information given here, but
they "show" the Eliica reaching 100 mph (actually 160 kph) in 7.04
seconds. Not bad for an eight wheeled limozine!
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:38 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Science Channel Shows NEDRA Power of DC Race
Hey Chris and all,
I am only getting audio on this link, are other's getting full video?
-Mike
On 8/10/06, Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin K wrote:
I like the idea, but I know many people on the list wouldn't agree :)
Consider this, would you pay $20K for a '95 Aspire that gets 50mph and
run 13's in the quarter mile, or a '91 Vette that does the same?
The cost to build is about the same.
Jack
I have this Aspire was going to play with, but I think I've decided to
build something real instead,
and the latest idea is to convert a '91 Corvette into an electric
hybrid. Take the 1.3L motor from the aspire and put it into the
corvette, along with a couple 8" motors and a lot of batteries. Make
it scream on the electric, but run on the highway with the itty 1.3L.
Then I could claim 50mph or better and yet be super fast in the 1/4
mile and high top-speed.
Am I insane? Would you buy it for $20K?
Jack
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