EV Digest 5954
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery boxes
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery boxes
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery boxes (Nothing to do with range)
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Battery boxes
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery boxes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Battery boxes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV Podcasting
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV Podcasting
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Podcasting
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water,
I have someone for the CFO position. I am also looking for a Marketing
Director.
Jerry Dycus,
The design that we have settled on is:
http://www.ifgonline.com/Phantom6/
David Dymaxion,
Thanks for your comments and support.
Once we complete the team then we will be finishing the business plan that
we have started. We feel it is important to build the team first and then
with the team in place, continue to develop the business.
There are many reasons why I wanted to keep this quite for as long as I
could, but after asking various direct question and really no direct
answers, I thought that it was time to share my idea with you.
Because of the design that we have selected, we want it to perform
comparably, using lead acid batteries. We are looking forward to all the
new developments such as
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/brown_universit.html .
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:02 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
> Maybe the following will give you moiré information to what I am
trying to
> do. I have already contacted the EV'ers here in Northern Utah.
>
> For more than 26 years I have wanted to build an EV. I have been
going to
> GreenCarCogress.com and other web sites everyday for the past 18
months. It
> is very clear to me that with the current advancements in technology
that it
> is time to build.
>
> I own the domain, DriveElectric.net (currently not up) and the DBA,
(doing
> business as) Drive Electric here in Utah. I am looking to put
together a
> team to build and sell EV's. If Tesla Motors, Universal Electric
Vehicle
> Inc., Mullen Motor Company and Phoenix Motorcars can do it, so can I.
>
> I have a BS in computer science and associate degree in automotive
service,
> both degrees from Weber State. I currently am working as a senior
software
> engineer, but I have also designed, drafted and built my own 2
story, 3,700
> sq. ft. home.
>
> We are looking for a COO to join our team and be a part of the start-up
> process. If you know anyone who would be interested, please have
them send
> me their resume.
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
> President & CEO
> Drive Electric
>
I glad you gave us "moiré" information and made your intentions clear.
Now you'll have more input that you care to read. What market are
you aiming for, and what kind of investment funds do you have access
to? The Tesla and X-1 cover the expensive sports car end, and the
Xebra the cheap underpowered Chinese junk section. What do you want to
sell?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for the clarification, what would the reduction in range
for a car that is 3,000 lbs vs 2,700 ?
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
What the experts are saying is that range is not linear
with the inverse of the weight.
So, twice as heavy is not half the range.
But it sure is less for a heavier than for a lighter vehicle.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:38 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
At 03:01 PM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
No, what the experts here say is that a heavier car doesn't have
less range, just less acceleration.
What? An S10 will get the same range as a Metro? I don't think so!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shari, what is the most difficult and time consuming part of
converting a car to electric?
Jack
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 03:01 PM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
No, what the experts here say is that a heavier car doesn't have less
range, just less acceleration.
What? An S10 will get the same range as a Metro? I don't think so!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIke,
I have an electric Porsche 914. It was converted sometime in the mid 90's,
long before I got my hands on it. The person who did the conversion used
aluminum angle pieces bolted together. Then installed a carbon fiber honey
comb paneling. I believe this type of paneling is used in the aircraft
industry and is very strong and light. The paneling is approximately .5 inch
thick. I personally would have use a honey comb paneling with a fiberglass
or other non conductive material. Carbon fiber is conductive. There is a
hard skin over the carbon fiber so it is not bear carbon fiber. There is a
plastic edging that covers the edges of the exposed ends. It really has not
been a problem. In side the boxes is 1.5 pink insulation on the bottom and
sides. So the batteries do not sit directly on the honey comb paneling. I do
have a couple of areas that will require some maintenance soon. But all in
all the boxes have held up quite well for the 10 plus years of use.
If I was in your shoes it would be a hard call. Building the boxes on your
our would require a lot of time and sweat equity. This is an item that has
to last a long time due to the fact that it is really hard to change once it
is done. Its not like a motor that you can up grade with new adapter plate
or a controller that you can replace in a day. I would expect the Electro
Automotive boxes would last longer then the car. It is a proven design. You
do it once and it is never a problem again.
But if you have more time then money. Then knock your self out. Just
remember it is a hard thing to change after the fact.
If you want more detail and pictures. You can e-mail me directly.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
"THE Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long
before the world runs out of oil."
Quotation is from Sheikh Zaki Yamani, a Saudi Arabian who served as his
country's oil minister three decades ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: Battery boxes
Too late :)
I already got the "little" car, and what a beauty she is!
Nevertheless, if I have to go the route of buying pre-engineered boxes I
will, I was just curious as to what was involved in making them and if the
costs were justified. It sounds like the boxes they make are made very
well,
I'm not disparaging that at all.
Just hoping I can cut some corners and not turn this into a $20,000
project.
Just to reiterate, I'd rather put the money into things I KNOW I can't do,
like build a motor or a controller, or batteries or whatever other
electronics will be needed for this conversion.
I'm not completely inept, so I think I might be able to build the boxes
myself and save $1000 - $1500.
On the other hand I could spend hundreds on materials and hours on effort
and find that what I've built is sorely inefficient. But hey, that's what
experience is all about, right?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:00 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
I would suggest consideration of a car to convert that doesn't require
engineered battery boxes might put you ahead on costs. For example, a
car that has a big trunk. And might not also need suspension upgrades.
These little cars that are always recommended have hidden costs..
Jack
Michael Trefry wrote:
Thank you for the explanation Shari.
I certainly wasn't suggesting that these boxes weren't quality
construction.
I was just wondering what the requirements for boxes were. I am trying to
cut down the costs on my project and just wondering what I might be able
to
do on my own to help with that, while not sacrificing the things that are
most important to me as I'm sure is with anyone, range and performance.
I'd rather dump a ton of money into the motor, controller and batteries,
if
I can cut back costs by fabricating some of the other stuff myself.
At a full 1/4 price of the whole conversion kit, the price of that box
set,
no matter how it's made seems steep to me.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:03 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
At 10:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set
for
914 at electroauto.com)
I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
This is not A box, it is a SET of boxes and racks. The front trunk
holds 6 batteries in a T-shaped box, the gas tank area holds 3 in a
rectangular box, the engine compartment holds 9 in a two-part
T-shaped box. (While it FITS in the engine compartment, it is not
possible to get it INTO the engine compartment in one piece, so it is
made in two pieces that bolt together in place.) And there are 2
single battery "saddle bag" boxes in the rear trunk. The boxes are
made of welded polypropylene. They are supported by welded steel
rack and holddowns, which have been epoxy powdercoated. The set
includes ventilation fans.
Welding costs of both plastic and steel are determined more by the
complexity of the shape than the size. Since two of these boxes are
complex shapes, the welding costs are higher than for a plain square box.
These are units we have productionized by paying the welders to
create jigs for easier and consistent reproducibility. Getting a
single set made like this without the jigs would cost much more.
Certainly, cheaper boxes can be built from cheaper materials such as
plywood, and it is of course cheaper to build your own (if you have
the skills and/or equipment) since you don't charge yourself for your
own time.
Containing the batteries is only part of the design equation. They
also need to be secured to the chassis in such a way as to KEEP them
in place in case of a collision.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That should address the class just under the Tesla,
I see that the bare kits go for $12k - $13k and a
Fiero chassis between $2500 and $4500, pre-stretched.
The completed replica's are sold for $50 to $70 according
the "dealer opportunity" page, so if you throw in
another $20,000 for electric drive and batteries then
you should be able to make a very decent car, with
the same performance as the gasser but silent and clean.
You can learn a lot from what Tesla and others have done
and follow their lead while avoiding their mistakes.
With the upswing in EV start-ups, you may be riding the
waves of publicity that they make.
I see the Phantom 6.0 is built at a dealer (Extreme Exotics)
here in San Jose. Hmmmm.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Build EV For Someone Else
Cor van de Water,
I have someone for the CFO position. I am also looking for a Marketing
Director.
Jerry Dycus,
The design that we have settled on is:
http://www.ifgonline.com/Phantom6/
David Dymaxion,
Thanks for your comments and support.
Once we complete the team then we will be finishing the business plan that
we have started. We feel it is important to build the team first and then
with the team in place, continue to develop the business.
There are many reasons why I wanted to keep this quite for as long as I
could, but after asking various direct question and really no direct
answers, I thought that it was time to share my idea with you.
Because of the design that we have selected, we want it to perform
comparably, using lead acid batteries. We are looking forward to all the
new developments such as
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/brown_universit.html .
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:02 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
> Maybe the following will give you moiré information to what I am
trying to
> do. I have already contacted the EV'ers here in Northern Utah.
>
> For more than 26 years I have wanted to build an EV. I have been
going to
> GreenCarCogress.com and other web sites everyday for the past 18
months. It
> is very clear to me that with the current advancements in technology
that it
> is time to build.
>
> I own the domain, DriveElectric.net (currently not up) and the DBA,
(doing
> business as) Drive Electric here in Utah. I am looking to put
together a
> team to build and sell EV's. If Tesla Motors, Universal Electric
Vehicle
> Inc., Mullen Motor Company and Phoenix Motorcars can do it, so can I.
>
> I have a BS in computer science and associate degree in automotive
service,
> both degrees from Weber State. I currently am working as a senior
software
> engineer, but I have also designed, drafted and built my own 2
story, 3,700
> sq. ft. home.
>
> We are looking for a COO to join our team and be a part of the start-up
> process. If you know anyone who would be interested, please have
them send
> me their resume.
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
> President & CEO
> Drive Electric
>
I glad you gave us "moiré" information and made your intentions clear.
Now you'll have more input that you care to read. What market are
you aiming for, and what kind of investment funds do you have access
to? The Tesla and X-1 cover the expensive sports car end, and the
Xebra the cheap underpowered Chinese junk section. What do you want to
sell?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$1500 is what I paid for my first zapi , a 120v 400 amp controller , with
regen . about 10 years ago ( it did have all the contactors ) . I had the
adc motor re timed to neutral from its advanced position as solar car said
it was needed . Later I got a Kostof 11 and put the adc 9 in my second ev
watch eat Curtis controllers from time to time until I remembered that the
motor was retimed to neutral , I advanced the timing and that was the last
controller it ate . The h zapi controller never really died , something
happened with the regen part of it , and as it was so old ( almost 10
years ) I couldn't get if fixed . My friend Tom put one of his pwm
controller drivers on the power stage and is still using it , with wires
and everything hanging out and no regen . It was a step up for the Curtis.
Steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
FYI,
Part # for 800 amp - 120 volt H3 with regen is # FH9045.
Price is $1500.
Call Zapi directly at 919-789-4588. Ask for national sales manager Chris
Murphy.
Tell him Lawless posted this price on the EV list.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla controls backordered?
Well the regen certainly sounds attractive, especially considering the
braking assistance it will give. The 914 has manual brakes :(
I'll have to look into this.
Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:26 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
The Zapi has at least 2 cutback speeds for "valet" and definitely has
regen. If you fit a potentiometer to your brake pedal you can program
variable regen level based on pedal position. At full tilt it sure
puts the brakes on AND makes the battery meter shine full.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla controls backordered?
But wait,
I thought DC motors couldn't do regen without an external generator?
Steve Lacy was explaining the Zilla's valet mode to me, does the Zapi
support
anything like that?
I'd really like to regulate the current drawn during regular driving
(to extend
range), but be able to flip a switch to allow full power when I want to
have
some fun.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:37 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
Michael,
As Mr Clunn said everything has a price. However, as the proud owner
of the world's quickest motor controller from D. Berubi's legendary 8.8
sec dragster I think of Otmar as a hippie flavored Smokey Yunick or Big
Daddy Don. I still think contactors are faster but wouldn't part with
my world record 1.8K Zilla for $100K. Not a bad choice for a light
weight EV is the 120 volt zapi 800 amp with regen for series motors.
The regen is real cool on my street car and the controller is
relatively cheap. Not Zilla performance but enough to run 70+ on the
freeway and still put you back in the seat at the redlight.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Trefry"
So I've decided to go DC to allow the maximum flexibility of tweaking
and
tuning.
I just visited the Zilla web-site, and it looks like the controllers
are
backordered over 6 months.
It kind of like the EV1 we got a taste of something so good , but now
the well seem dry .
What are the chances of finding a used Zilla, and would I want to?
I'd like to see one on e bay , just to see how much it goes for . As
they say everything has a price ,
I'd sell my used 1k 156v used zilla for 4k , ya I wouldn't buy a use
one for that , maybe 2500 , . My 2 k , $10,000 , ,, maybe ,
Its like oil , when you can't get it , the price goes to the moon .
Thing is , hi prices like this would stop allot of people from getting
into Ev's ,
Are there any other controllers AS good for the EV hobbyist?
not that I've seen , maybe if I paint a curtis green it will work
better, got to do something .
Steve Clunn
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________________________________________________________________________
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free AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack,
With everything else the same, the 10% weight reduction
may give you 5% more range or so, not really a significant
difference (40 miles becomes 42), that is why I do not
understand the people that go to great length to shave
1.5 lbs off their vehicle with the risk of compromising
its performance or reliablity.
The range difference can be measured in feet.
(turning down the flywheel, or taking gears out of the
gearbox and more of those mods.)
Unless you race it and the last 0.01 second counts, this
seems like a waste of time to me.
But, as always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:34 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
thanks for the clarification, what would the reduction in range
for a car that is 3,000 lbs vs 2,700 ?
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> What the experts are saying is that range is not linear
> with the inverse of the weight.
> So, twice as heavy is not half the range.
> But it sure is less for a heavier than for a lighter vehicle.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Electro Automotive
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:38 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Battery boxes
>
>
> At 03:01 PM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
>
>>No, what the experts here say is that a heavier car doesn't have
>>less range, just less acceleration.
>
>
> What? An S10 will get the same range as a Metro? I don't think so!
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can place more weight in a full frame vehicle such as a pickup than an
Geo. There has been a S-10 size pickup that had a range of up to 100 miles with
new batteries. Your best in a Geo loaded to the max with batteries is going
to be 40 or 50 miles. There both going to be slow with this weight but and
yes not efficient but that is the price of range using lead.
Any more weight in the Geo to exceed 40 or 50 miles and it would fall apart.
The unibody cannot take the stress a full frame vehicle is able to handle a
higher percentage of weight. It is extreme to get 100 miles but I know of
regular conversion loaded in the back with Trojan batteries that did it and
the
one below that I found looking for it. _http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/837_
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/837)
Don
In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:02:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 2 Oct 2006 at 18:37, Electro Automotive wrote:
> What? An S10 will get the same range as a Metro? I don't think so!
Maybe I've missed something in this discussion, but as long as the speed is
fairly low, so that the brick - er - truck's horrendous aerodynamics don't
matter, it seems to me that what counts is the proportion of battery weight.
The range for a Metro with 30% of its mass in lead would be little more
than that for, say, an S-10 with 30% of its mass in lead.
Of course there are other considerations, but all other things being equal
...
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found it the "Red Beastie"
_http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html_
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html)
Don
In a message dated 10/2/2006 10:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
You can place more weight in a full frame vehicle such as a pickup than an
Geo. There has been a S-10 size pickup that had a range of up to 100 miles
with
new batteries. Your best in a Geo loaded to the max with batteries is going
to be 40 or 50 miles. There both going to be slow with this weight but and
yes not efficient but that is the price of range using lead.
Any more weight in the Geo to exceed 40 or 50 miles and it would fall
apart.
The unibody cannot take the stress a full frame vehicle is able to handle a
higher percentage of weight. It is extreme to get 100 miles but I know of
regular conversion loaded in the back with Trojan batteries that did it and
the
one below that I found looking for it.
_http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/837_
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/837)
Don
In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:02:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 2 Oct 2006 at 18:37, Electro Automotive wrote:
> What? An S10 will get the same range as a Metro? I don't think so!
Maybe I've missed something in this discussion, but as long as the speed is
fairly low, so that the brick - er - truck's horrendous aerodynamics don't
matter, it seems to me that what counts is the proportion of battery
weight.
The range for a Metro with 30% of its mass in lead would be little more
than that for, say, an S-10 with 30% of its mass in lead.
Of course there are other considerations, but all other things being equal
...
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:25 PM:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
[snip]
> > The Zivan has a thermal probe. The charger is mounted in the
> > same place that the K&W BC-20 (from the VoltsRabbit kit) was,
and
> > that is adjacent to the rear pack (2x4 array of batts), which
is
> > in a polypropolene case. Currently the probe is duct-taped
to
> > the side of the polypro case, and I realize that may not
reflect
> > the temperature of the batts, but it is as good as I can do
till
> > I decide how I want to drill a hole in the case and pass the
> > probe (that was one of my posts some months ago - ? on how to
> > drill polypro cases). I had thought that that probe being on
the
> > side of that massive pack (even with the polypro) might be
close
> > enough to temp, but now I'm thinking otherwise from some of
what
> > I've seen the charger do recently, if it's pretty cool
outside
> > and the batteries are warm from driving.
>
> You definitely want to get that probe inside the battery box
and either
> sandwhich it between a pair of the center batteries, or connect
it to
> one of the posts on a center battery, or stick it inside the
center cell
> of one of the center batteries.
I'm not certain if the thermal probe (which is metal (aluminum
probably) skinned) is isolated from the DC outputs of the
charger, so I'd be a little leery of attaching the probe
conductively to a post. Since the rear battery box is a 2x4
array holding half the car's traction pack, all the batteries are
pretty tight together, and the probe, which is over a 1/4" in
diameter, and less than 1/2" (eyeballing it from memory) won't
fit down between the tops of the batteries; however, putting the
probe down before putting the last of four batteries in that it
would monitor might be the trick (then it would be as snug as a
bug in a rug!). If it won't fit that way, the only other real
idea I would have would be to attach it with heatsink grease to
the top of the battery, with only the bottom part conductive for
heat, and the rest insulated as I can reasonably make it, to
avoid mis-reading the pack's temperature because of the
ventilation fan blowing in air at whatever temperature.
I wanted to eventually have four different temperature "zones",
but that will have to wait till I get some kind of microprocessor
set up. The front pack (positions 1-8) is considerably cooler,
since it is not in a box, but just racks. This is shown in the
hydrometer reading spreadsheets. It seemed exaggerated on this
last hydrometer run.
>
> I'm not aware of any tricks for drilling polypro. I expect it
would be
> easiest (but impractical in your case) to do the operation in a
drill
> press so that the drill bit isn't 'pulled' into the soft
plastic such
> that it 'screws' through instead of drilling. What I've found
to
> sometimes work with such materials is to use a reversible hand
drill and
> drill the hole with a sharp bit turning the 'wrong' way.
>From what Mike Brown says, I can go slow. My variable-speed
drill is reversible. I'll have to pull a couple of batts to get
clearance, but that's trivial in the rear, assuming my back is up
to snuff.
>
> > So this (USBMC) here looks like a final constant I
suggestion.
> > But it doesn't appear to say for how long. I've seen you and
> > Mark Hanson mention stopping when the voltage stops rising.
>
> Right; Mark uses a dv/dt finish, and the USBMC constant current
> recommendation I mentioned also comes from a dv/dt type finish
> algorithm.
>
> I you can't do a dv/dt termination with your charger, another
> possibility is to try to aim to return 107-120% of the removed
Ah (see
> above).
>
> > However, when I've monitored voltage, the voltage
> > stops rising at 1 to 2 hours, somewhere in there, so that
means
> > the batts are being driven another hour (and heating up)
> > unneccessarily.
>
> If you monitor the battery/electrolyte temp, you'll probably
find that
> an additional hour at <6A probably doesn't raise the
temperature all
> that much from where it would be if you stopped early.
Assuming an
> average discharge of 80Ah, the extra hour represents an extra
7%
> overcharge.
I have a stem thermometer (I call it "FPST", for front pack stem
thermometer, in the spreadsheets), and once the voltage stops
rising, that's usually about when the temperature starts going
up. I'm not sure what my Ah discharges usually are - a lot of it
depends on how many hills I go up, in particular the steep one at
the end coming back home. But I suspect the Ah discharge is more
like 30-40 Ah at most in a typical commute evening.
>
[snip]
> > One other item that has bothered me a bit is that a year or
two
> > ago I changed to a siphon water feed off of my apt deck one
story
> > down to the car port. The EV friend who put the beginnings
of
> > that together used a copper pipe or two and some brass
fittings
> > that go down into a 3-gallon plastic container (formerly used
for
> > distilled water) and attach to a long plastic hose I bought
at
> > the hardware store. The water is stored with just a rubber
> > stopper on top of the container, and the siphon feed would
only
> > be in there for a few hours while I'm doing the monthly
battery
> > chores. Hopefully not a problem, right?
>
> I would be suspicious that the copper and/or brass may have
resulted in
> some contamination of your batteries. If the batteries are
> contaminated, I don't know of anything you can do about it, but
if it
> were me, I'd get rid of anything metallic in your watering
setup and
> replace it with plastic.
I'll try to get rid of the metal. I've wondered what would be
symptoms of contamination like that.
>
[snip]
> I can't say which way to go, but I personally have not added
acid to a
> cell except when initially filling 'green', unformed batteries
prior to
> executing the forming charge.
At this point, I'm leaning towards letting the electrolyte going
back down to where it was to about the level it was from the
factory, then add, perhaps in several stages, 1270sg electrolyte
back up to the filler neck. I suspect this process will take
several months. Would be nice to see that sugar coating
disappear too, but that may be asking too much.
But first I want to see what you guys say after looking at these
spreadsheets. I finished up the last hydrometer reading
spreadsheet. Now I've got to figure out how to get some pdf
output. If not this evening, then it will be early next week.
Thanks, later,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We had one EV'er a few years ago that had a Prestolite in his
converted Pontiac J2000 (he has a Solectria Force now and is much
happier it seems). He told me his motor was getting hot and
smelly. So we drove it just a few blocks, and sure enough, it
smelled about like an old Xmas tree (it was that time of year),
and it sure was hot. He ended up having to have the motor
rebuilt. I believe there was a short in the commutator or
something - I don't remember what it was real well.
I also remember Joe Smalley had an interesting tang coming from
his motor after running down the drag strip. 48V/2000A wasn't
it? I recall him saying something to the effect that was par for
the course with that motor.
Isn't the smell usually coming from roasted glue that holds down
the comm bars?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
> Bob Bath wrote "I'm starting to get a rather
> interesting smell which I'm fairly certain is from my
> motor. It happens between 30-40, and generally on an
> uphill stretch."
>
> Do you have a motor current gage? I don't see one in
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/542.html, but if you
> do, have you been keeping your motor current below its
> 5 minute and one hour ratings? I don't see 8" specs
> for 144V like you are running, but since the 96V and
> 120V specs are similar between 8" and 9", you should
> probably be staying below 320A over 5 minutes and
> below 185A over 1 hour, per the 9" 144V specs.
>
> I find that even when I keep the RPMs high, it's tough
> to climb long, steep, or high speed hills within these
> parameters. I also find that motor current is usually
> much higher than 144V battery current, which I assume
> your E-meter gives you, although the two do get closer
> at higher RPMs.
>
> Chris Jones
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So how do people usually wire up a PFC-30 so that you can't drive away
while it's charging?
Can I use the +5V from the Regbus to trigger a relay? If so, how much
power can I safely draw from it? Will the regs pull that line high even
when I'm not charging?
Thanks,
Jake Oshins
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath said, "Had been told that running in 1st
gear at 30 would mean lower amps than 2nd @ 30, which
is why I drove that way. But through experimentation,
I don't necessarily agree with the accuracy of that
statement now."
I shift up at around 25 MPH -- ~3900 RPM for my
configuration -- to keep the motor current down, but
any higher RPM and the torque drops off too far for my
taste in traffic to keep up and stay out of peoples'
way. But higher RPM does seem to keep the current low
-- I have wound it up to ~4800 RPM on the freeway in
3rd at 63 MPH to keep motor current down during steady
state driving.
"I'm usually under 300A from a dead stop on a hill.
Am usually running 40-140A when I drive."
Hard to say what the motor current is compared to
these battery currents -- depends on so many things.
I highly recommend a motor current gage to take the
guesswork out of it.
Chris Jones
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jake,
On the EV's I upgraded to use the PFC series chargers, I simply
replaced the AC interlock relay with a 12V relay. On the Sparrow, it
is a direct drop-in replacement. I then use a 12V universal input
switching power supply to power the relay.
On 10/2/06, Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So how do people usually wire up a PFC-30 so that you can't drive away
while it's charging?
Can I use the +5V from the Regbus to trigger a relay? If so, how much
power can I safely draw from it? Will the regs pull that line high even
when I'm not charging?
Thanks,
Jake Oshins
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I'm planning on setting up a fortnightly or monthly podcast for EV
owners and enthusiasts. The plan is to include people on a world-wide
level from the UK to the USA and from Eastern Europe to Australia!
The initial podcast would take probably an hour of your time to
record and would just simply require you to have a broadband
connection, Skype and a spare hour when we can all get together!
I have some UK people lined up for this but it'd be great to have
EVers from around the globe involved. We'd aim to make the podcast (I
think) on a weekend Evening (Probably Saturday or Sunday late
evening GMT)
Any takers?
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Who would be the target audience? And would this be a moderated discussion, or
would you take submissions and edit them into a
coherent podcast?
I'm game.
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of nikki
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:50 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV Podcasting
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I'm planning on setting up a fortnightly or monthly podcast for EV
> owners and enthusiasts. The plan is to include people on a world-wide
> level from the UK to the USA and from Eastern Europe to Australia!
>
> The initial podcast would take probably an hour of your time to
> record and would just simply require you to have a broadband
> connection, Skype and a spare hour when we can all get together!
>
> I have some UK people lined up for this but it'd be great to have
> EVers from around the globe involved. We'd aim to make the podcast (I
> think) on a weekend Evening (Probably Saturday or Sunday late
> evening GMT)
>
> Any takers?
>
> Nikki.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
Target audience would be EV owners, EV enthusiasts and those
interested 'from a distance'. I envisage the format to be (initially
at least) a group discussion lead via skype with reports from the
'guest panel' members. Ideally it'd be nice to have as many people on
board as possible so we can rotate this.
In addition to a news section I think it'd also be good to have some
'discussion points' every time - charging points, regional, national
and international approaches to Evs... etc etc.
I think the first show would be a) a tester and b) a good place to
discuss current vehicles out there - both commercial and home made.
Would it also be really good to have a tech-help section perhaps???
Nikki.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËbMime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 03:50:43 -0600
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
There have already been several answers to this email, but I haven't
seen one that covers the points to my satisfaction.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, but I play one here on the EV list :)
On Oct 2, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
> No, what the experts here say is that a heavier car doesn't have less
> range, just less acceleration.
That's an oversimplification. The true picture depends not only the
weight of the car, but the weight of batteries on board, the efficiency
of the vehicle, and the dollar cost.
This is somewhat complicated because there are several factors that
affect your range, and they also affect each other. I'm going to
ignore acceleration, except to point out that it's a function of the
vehicle's power and weight, which affect the efficiency and cost.
Range is a function of how much energy ("fuel") you have on board your
vehicle and how efficient the vehicle is. This is true for any type of
vehicle that carries its own fuel, not just EVs.
Gasoline fuel is measured in gallons. In an EV powered by lead-acid
batteries, the "fuel" is measured in pounds of lead. The more gasoline
or lead you have on board, the more range you have.
So why not just add lead until you reach your target range?
First, lead is really heavy. You need to stay within the safe load
range of your car, or you have lots of problems such as poor handling
and braking, and structural failure. So a given vehicle can only have
a certain amount of lead on board.
Second, the heavier your vehicle is, the less efficient it is. You
have to waste power on hauling around the lead, and eventually you
start running into diminishing returns.
Lastly, lead is expensive (and getting more so). Your motor and
controller need to be more expensive to move the heavier vehicle.
Eventually it's cheaper to use lighter batteries like NiMH or lithiums.
> And the size of the glider means little compared to the weight of the
> batteries.
I think what you're trying to say here is "the weight of the batteries
determines your range". That's part of the above discussion.
At this point, it would probably help to introduce some numbers. There
are a couple of popular rules of thumb that have been worked out
empirically over the years. Here they are. (I hope I get them right,
please correct me if I'm wrong.)
1) If your vehicle has 30% of its total weight in batteries, it will
have a range of about 60 miles. (I don't know where this came from.
Bob Brant?)
For example, an Electro Auto Porsche 914 kit. Let's say the glider
weighs 2700 pounds, a guess based on the stock weight of about 2900
pounds less 200 pounds of motor+etc. The kit accepts 20 US-145 6v
batteries, which weight 70 pounds apiece for a total of 1400 pounds of
lead, total vehicle weight 4100 pounds. The batteries take up about
34% of the total weight. EA claims 80-100 miles, which given my loose
figures is in the ballpark.
2) 600 pounds of lead is equivalent to one gallon of gas in the donor
vehicle. (I think Bill Dube' came up with this.)
Again taking the 914 as the donor, we'll use 30mpg as the mileage. So
one gallon of gas takes you 30 miles, or 1200 pounds of lead takes you
60 miles. Again, reasonably close to 1400 pounds.
A fellow called Jeremy Rutman has studied all the cars on the EV Album
and come up with another rule of thumb.
3) R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6) Or, range in miles is 250
times battery kWh divided by the weight of the car raised to the power
of 0.6.
For our Porsche 914, we get 145 amp-hours times 120 volts to get
29.3kWh. 250 * 29.3 / 4100 ^ 0.6 is 49.8 miles. In the ballpark
again.
For a much more rigorous treatment of this topic (and many more
besides), see the book "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle", by Bob Brant.
> If you want to propel less weight around the planet, use NiMH
> batteries instead of lead.
That's one way to look at the problem. The Tesla is an example of what
happens when you want longer range with an ICE car conversion (in this
case, the Lotus Elise). They had to use a different battery chemistry
(lithium instead of lead) to reach their range target.
Or you can change the rules of the game :)
The rules of thumb above were derived mostly from conversions - regular
steel-bodied ICE cars converted to EVs. It's possible to do much
better by designing your own chassis. Jerry Dycus in Florida is
working on a super-efficient three-wheel fiberglass design he hopes to
bring to market soon, called the Freedom EV. He expects to get more
than 50% of the vehicle weight in lead, giving a range of more than 60
miles and good performance with inexpensive components.
The Tango is another custom-built (in the Seattle area) lead-acid EV.
Much higher performance, but similarly able to carry a larger
percentage of its weight in batteries, giving more range than you'd
expect from the above rules.
Geez, it's late, gotta go. No time for fact-checking, I hope the list
catches the worst of the boo-boos. Thanks for reading this far, and
sorry for the long post.
> Jack
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
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