EV Digest 6474
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Questions on EV
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) ZIF Recommendation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Questions on EV
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: All of original Tesla patents
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Wow, What a difference 1 or 2 bad batteries makes
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Nicad update
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV math is not my strong point
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: Breaker mounting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Regenerated Power
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EVLN(TH!NK seeking Euro and U.S. markets)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Zilla for the newbie?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: GE EV-1 SCR Controller question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think they are the same. A tire on a perfectly smooth road has
deflection energy dissipated. A Suspension would have none. As a road
gets really bumpy the amount of tire deflection may increase but it
increases from that minimum. If I recall the trick to making a low
rolling resistance tire is to use a high thread count of a smaller more
flexible cord. More flexible but able to hold more air pressure. Keep
it rounder and provide less energy to flex it. This also requires
different rubber compounding.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi, my name is Jason Franzman, I am a freshman in a Junior
> College and I am looking into a engineering major and will hopefully be
> transfering to UC Berkley. I am new in to this list and in my
> research. I am sure before long you will be bored and annoyed by all
> my questions. I am extremely interested in converting a car into an EV
> for many reasons. First and for most, my goal is to save the
> enviroment and to do this effectively I need the car to reach a
> sufficent range of about 150 miles on one charge. I am looking into an
> AC converting kit on Electro Automotive specifically the porsche 914 AC
> kit. It costs about 13K not including batteries or the body but it
> will reach about 150 miles on one charge and can go up to 100
> mph. They advise that I use lead batteries but I am also looking into
> either Lithium Ion but most likely Nickel Metal Hydride. Also I am
> looking into solar panels which I will fit onto the roof, trunk and
> hood since they are so flat.
> The car will have a significant down
> time after 60 miles since Berkely is only 60 miles from my house and
> will be able to charge for about 7 or so hours before I return home. I
> am looking into the hypothetical best car that I can build and then
> from there I will downgrade based on the money.
>
If you want to have as little impact on the environment as possible,
*don't* commute - move to walking or bicycling distance, rental or
dorms, or use BART, which has a station a block from campus. An e-bike
would fit that lifestyle and be the best place to start your EV work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Richard,
A Zilla will work very well with your set up no matter how much over voltage
you have which would be up to the Zilla voltage limit. It will solve your
question No. 1. .... to continue below....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Zilla for the newbie?
> Eesh...obviously I still barely know jack about EV's. I've been interested
> in upgrading to a better controller for my Beetle. (That I just bought)
> I've
> read the FAQ but I still have questions and from his production blog,
> Otmar
> simply seems too busy to answer such noob questions so I'm hoping that
> experienced Zilla EV'ers can help me.
>
> First some background:
> Currently I'm running the standard Curtis 1221B. Um...the motor is also a
> ADC 6.7" Smaller than normal it seems from looking at the EV photo album.
> 128v of 8v lead batteries. 128-12v Sevcon DC/DC converter. The car has
> been
> driven for years in this configuration by previous owners. I'm
> over-driving
> the controller by 8 volts but the inrush blow is softened by a light bulb
> resistor arrangement. Question #1: Does anyone see anything critically
> wrong
> with this arrangement? Is the motor too small? It seemed to drive ok
> before
> I took the worn out batteries out of it.
>
> Question #2:
> The Zilla seems kind of intimidating to me. Please help me understand if
> it
> would benefit me or tell me if it would damage my motor or new 8v lead
> batteries. As I understand it, a Zilla programmed to give me more than the
> 400 amps that the Curtis gives would let me accelerate faster, and perhaps
> run at higher speeds at the cost of draining the batteries faster. Is this
> correct? What maximum amperage setting is acceptable to hit 8v lead
> batteries with? I don't want to damage them or shorten their life cycle.
> Will the higher output of a Zilla shorten my motor or brush life?
You can program the Zilla for the maximum motor voltage and maximum motor
ampere you want. I have a 180 volt battery charge to 230 volts and is
running a 165 v motor at 175 amps. I set the amount of current limiting I
want for the maximum surge amp I want. My Zilla voltage rating is max out at
300 volts at 1000 amps. I could have a 250 volt battery pack which would be
charge to just below 300 volts.
The Zilla keeps the voltage lower at the motor while the ampere may be up,
while the battery amp is low and voltage is high. For example, at 50 mph my
motor amps is 180 amps while the motor volts is about 50 volts. The battery
amps is about 50 amps while the voltage is about 180 volts.
The lower voltage on the motor, keeps the brush arcing down which gives you
longer brush and commentator life. Of course if you floor it all the time,
the life could be less. ...... continue below,,,,,
>
> Question #3: According to the FAQ, the Zilla will live longer if it's
> liquid
> cooled.
> Uh, I'm driving a '74 Beetle here. It has no front "grill" for radiator
> airflow. I don't want to add yet another electrical load by placing a fan
> over whatever heat exchanger I use for the fluid. Any ideas on how to
> overcome this?
No problem. The Zilla uses 3/8 outlets out of its water cool heat sink. I
attach one 3/8 line to one of these outlets and run it to one of those ICE
overflow expansion tanks. The one I got has a 3/4 inch pipe stub coming out
the bottom which is ideal for connecting up a Maxi-Jet 1200 Multi-Use
Submersible Pump and Power Head. You can get these pumps at a fish store
which is use for marine aquariums.
Attach the pump 3/4 inch pipe (remove all the filter and pick up tube that
is attach to the 3/4 pipe) with a short rubber hose to the tank. The pump
has a 3/8 pipe fitting coming out it, that I attach a 3/8 tube that runs
back to the Zilla. If you are in a very hot climate, then run that 3/8 tube
to a small transmission radiator and than from the radiator to the Zilla.
With the tank and radiator you may not need any fan until it gets way over
100 degrees and you are driving a very long distance.
The Maxi-Jet 1200 pump Model 1200 is a 120 VAC 60 Hz unit which draws less
than a amp. Use the smallest DC-AC Inverter you can find. I am using one
that comes off the 12 volt DC-DC supply or 12 volt battery which works good.
.... continue below......
>
> Question #4: Are there any Baltimore/DC Metro area EV'ers that have
> installed their own Zilla 1k controllers who would be interested in
> working
> with me on this upgrade when the time comes? I do NOT expect anyone to
> just
> "do it for me". I want to be involved, hands-on. I'm smart and can be
> taught.
>
> I'm not trying to achieve "Warp Drive" here, I'm just trying to put a
> little
> zip into the Slug Bug so I can scoot out of the way of an SUV if I have
> to.
> Perhaps just setting the Zilla for 600-700 amps would be adequate but I
> have
> no idea how much of a performance difference it would make or if it would
> even be safe.
>
> Thanks for your help in advance,
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
That distance is too far for me. I live in Great Falls, Montana which is
known as the electric city, which we export electricity. We have 6
hydro-dams, hundreds of wind generator, coal fire plants and a new billion
dollar one that will recover at 99 point something of CO2. You need some
electricity?
Roland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for
> FREE.
> http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Richard. The Zilla isn't that difficult to work with. It requires a lot
of wires to be hooked up, but you would have to do something with them anyway.
The progammability lets you set it up to work with any battery and/or motor
combination.
1) I don't see any problems given that the car has been sucessfully driven for
some time in this setup. If you let the motor see more amps, though, you could
start to heat it up more than it likes. You'll have to experiment, maybe add a
temperature gage to watch for a while, and adjust the amp settings to
compensate for any unusually excessive heating.
2) The zilla won't harm either, if you set it for limits that your motor and
batteries like. The general consensus on the list is that the 8V batteries
like battery current to be kept under 300A.
3) The zilla will shut down to protect itself if it gets too hot, so running
air cooled won't hurt it. On the other hand, you don't need a LOT of air to do
liquid cooling. Check out EVsource.com for a complete cooling kit. I have one
installed in the rear compartment of a fiero, using the small side vent that
was originally used for the engine air inlet. Your bug got air from someplace
when it was an ICE. You could probably get air for cooling the radiator from
the same place. Routing an air hose from the radiator to the vent panel above
the decklid is one possibility.
Since I'm not in your area, I can't answer the rest, but your overall plan
seems feasible. The one thing I'd wonder about is if the motor is small enough
that you'd have to limit the Zilla to the same 400A the curtis is producing.
Lee Hart is also using this same motor and a very similar setup (at 132V, I
believe, but he has a lot of time under his belt at 128V) in his renault EV.
He is using Concorde AGM's, but he may be able to give you more info. on the
limits of that motor.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:03:58 PM
Subject: Zilla for the newbie?
Eesh...obviously I still barely know jack about EV's. I've been interested
in upgrading to a better controller for my Beetle. (That I just bought) I've
read the FAQ but I still have questions and from his production blog, Otmar
simply seems too busy to answer such noob questions so I'm hoping that
experienced Zilla EV'ers can help me.
First some background:
Currently I'm running the standard Curtis 1221B. Um...the motor is also a
ADC 6.7" Smaller than normal it seems from looking at the EV photo album.
128v of 8v lead batteries. 128-12v Sevcon DC/DC converter. The car has been
driven for years in this configuration by previous owners. I'm over-driving
the controller by 8 volts but the inrush blow is softened by a light bulb
resistor arrangement. Question #1: Does anyone see anything critically wrong
with this arrangement? Is the motor too small? It seemed to drive ok before
I took the worn out batteries out of it.
Question #2:
The Zilla seems kind of intimidating to me. Please help me understand if it
would benefit me or tell me if it would damage my motor or new 8v lead
batteries. As I understand it, a Zilla programmed to give me more than the
400 amps that the Curtis gives would let me accelerate faster, and perhaps
run at higher speeds at the cost of draining the batteries faster. Is this
correct? What maximum amperage setting is acceptable to hit 8v lead
batteries with? I don't want to damage them or shorten their life cycle.
Will the higher output of a Zilla shorten my motor or brush life?
Question #3: According to the FAQ, the Zilla will live longer if it's liquid
cooled.
Uh, I'm driving a '74 Beetle here. It has no front "grill" for radiator
airflow. I don't want to add yet another electrical load by placing a fan
over whatever heat exchanger I use for the fluid. Any ideas on how to
overcome this?
Question #4: Are there any Baltimore/DC Metro area EV'ers that have
installed their own Zilla 1k controllers who would be interested in working
with me on this upgrade when the time comes? I do NOT expect anyone to just
"do it for me". I want to be involved, hands-on. I'm smart and can be
taught.
I'm not trying to achieve "Warp Drive" here, I'm just trying to put a little
zip into the Slug Bug so I can scoot out of the way of an SUV if I have to.
Perhaps just setting the Zilla for 600-700 amps would be adequate but I have
no idea how much of a performance difference it would make or if it would
even be safe.
Thanks for your help in advance,
Rich A.
Maryland
_________________________________________________________________
Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to put 21 of my shunt regulators on a single mount so that I
can easily pull off in toto when I need to tighten the battery
connectors. My plan is to run short lengths of wire from each cell
through a fuse to some sort of connectors, then have mating connectors
on the regulator mount. Anyone have a recommendation for a type of ZIF
(Zero Insertion Force) connector that might work for this? Would two
pieces of 1-inch square aluminum work if they were held tightly
together, or is there a better alternative? Connectors need to handle
about 3A max.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I agree completely. One should never invest in any EV-related venture
>more than one can comfortably afford to lose, because as you point
>out, the history of the last 40 years (and longer) would indicate that
>the odds are more than likely that one will lose at least some and
>quite possibly all of one's investment.
The same can be said of *ANY* start-up venture, I'm afraid!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah it's also good to have a healthy skepticism about claims of what
people have done or promises of what a particular plan could do for you.
This field has no shortage of wackos/frauds to begin with, ranging from
Tilley promising to charge your batteries as you drive to that guy
saying he ran his car with I think a weed wacker engine. There's guys
somewhere in between there and reality on the credibility meter making
claims of cost, range, speed, and product lifetime that reality won't
live up to. On one hand you've got people with fancy company names and
trademarked terms making promises and wanting to sell you high priced
products to perform miracles, on the other hand you've got deluded
garage experimenters who make inaccurate claims of having performed
miracles for different reasons but either way the info is inaccurate.
The guys here are pretty critical of anyone making unrealistic claims,
and are more than willing to investigate any possible way a person could
get a result exceeding those performance expectations. So, in general,
BS doesn't get through but neither are new ideas and developments being
discarded.
Danny
Mick Abraham wrote:
Jason Franzman said: "it will reach about 150 miles on one charge and can go
up to 100 mph."
[Mick says:] Jason, I caution you about such optimistic projections for a
backyard conversion using non-exotic batteries. If you significantly lower
your expectations now, you won't set yourself up for a big disappointment
later. VoltsPorche experts on the list should chime in, but I'd say your
range projection is too hopeful by a factor of 5. 100 mph also seems too
optimistic. Mick A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Richard, and All
Some comments added:
At 06:13 PM 25/02/07 -0700, Roland wrote:
Hello Richard,
A Zilla will work very well with your set up no matter how much over voltage
you have which would be up to the Zilla voltage limit. It will solve your
question No. 1. .... to continue below....
<snip>
> simply seems too busy to answer such noob questions so I'm hoping that
> experienced Zilla EV'ers can help me.
Otmar is VERY busy, but he is very helpful when you can get him.
> Question #1: Does anyone see anything critically wrong
> with this arrangement? Is the motor too small? It seemed to drive ok
> before I took the worn out batteries out of it.
This motor is probably just on the border for being too small for a beetle,
it is capable of handling a 'squirt' of power to get out of someones' way,
but watch the long climbs. An external blower would help, and keep the revs up.
> Question #2:
> The Zilla seems kind of intimidating to me. Please help me understand if
> it would benefit me or tell me if it would damage my motor or new 8v lead
> batteries. As I understand it, a Zilla programmed to give me more than the
> 400 amps that the Curtis gives would let me accelerate faster, and perhaps
> run at higher speeds at the cost of draining the batteries faster. Is this
> correct? What maximum amperage setting is acceptable to hit 8v lead
> batteries with? I don't want to damage them or shorten their life cycle.
> Will the higher output of a Zilla shorten my motor or brush life?
A Zilla incorrectly set will fry you motor and blow up your batteries. A
correctly programmed Zilla will look after your batteries and motor nicely.
A Zilla is a good intermediate step in upgrading as you can use a Zilla on
a small motor or a big motor. Later on you may decide to put in a big
motor, and you can unleash the motor amps side whilst still looking after
the battery amps and volts. The Zilla will also overspeed protect if you
set it up to do so. Watch the current draw on those 8V floodies, a few
people are getting good life, most people that have used them ended up
abusing them. A Zilla will help keep the batteries alive by keeping the
battery current down.
Roland wrote some good stuff, but one thing he said:
The Zilla keeps the voltage lower at the motor <snip>
The lower voltage on the motor, <snip>
Be aware that the Zilla (like all PWM controllers) limits the average
voltage at the motor, but when the transistors are on the full battery
voltage is on the motor, when the transistors are off there is only the
freewheel diode voltage showing. It is a bit of a pedantic point, but you
can't run a 300V pack on a motor that is not prepared for 300V and tell the
Zilla not to put more than 120V on the motor - you'd be running serious
flashover risk as it limits the average to 120V (max 40% on if batteries at
300V), but the peak is still there. Not that your 128V system is likely to
be a problem there.
> Question #3: According to the FAQ, the Zilla will live longer if it's
> liquid cooled.
> Uh, I'm driving a '74 Beetle here. It has no front "grill" for radiator
> airflow. I don't want to add yet another electrical load by placing a fan
> over whatever heat exchanger I use for the fluid. Any ideas on how to
> overcome this?
No problem. The Zilla uses 3/8 outlets <snip>
I have set mine up (but not on the road yet) with a blower on the motor
that is sucking in via a duct that has an in-dash heater as the water
radiator, the air will not warm up much at all, then the air blows through
the motor. My pump came from a blood dialysis machine that circulated the
warm water supply, already 12V. Many ways, whatever works easiest for you.
> I'm not trying to achieve "Warp Drive" here, I'm just trying to put a
> little zip into the Slug Bug so I can scoot out of the way of an SUV if
I have
> to.
> Perhaps just setting the Zilla for 600-700 amps would be adequate but I
> have no idea how much of a performance difference it would make or if
it would
> even be safe.
The Zilla has a switch input that is designed to be used to select an
alternative set of limits. Referred to as "valet mode" so the racers can
switch down to a tame setting for road use or other drivers. You could use
this as "flat to the floor" mode to boost up a couple of hundred amps if
you need it.
>
> Thanks for your help in advance,
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
That distance is too far for me.
Ditto for me (in Australia)
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug,
Last I heard first deliveries were supposed to start sometime in March in
London and Rome. The full list of UK dealers can be found here:
www.vectrix.com/ContentResources/3/165575628/1/172_January2007.pdf
Maybe one of our listers in the London area could give those three London
dealers a call to check on the status and then report back to the list?
Charles Whalen
On Sunday, February 25, 2007 4:58 PM, Doug Hartley wrote:
4:59 PM EST
Hi Charles,
Last fall Vectrix had expected to be shipping the first bikes in Europe
around the end of February. Can you heard any update or news about this?
Thanks.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now
Available For Te...
I agree completely. One should never invest in any EV-related venture
more
than one can comfortably afford to lose, because as you point out, the
history of the last 40 years (and longer) would indicate that the odds
are
more than likely that one will lose at least some and quite possibly all
of
one's investment.
Charles Whalen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nikki,
On
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/402211445/in/photostream/
it states there are two 240VAC power sources: 13 and 16 amp.
I assume UK electrical code also limits the AC load to 80% of the
outlet/breaker's rating. So a 13amp outlet is allowed a 10.5amp
draw or 2.5kW source, and a 16amp outlet is allowed a 15amp draw
or a 3kW source.
Are these common outlets one may find in a household or at a
company's parking garage?
Similar outlets in the U.S. would be a 6-15 (12 amp draw) or 6-20
(16amp draw). But the AC voltage could be from 208 to 240.
Usually it is 208VAC at public EV charging locations. So the
source power would be 2.5kW and 3.3kW respectively.
It looks like the UK codes do not force an AVCON or inductive
charging unit be installed at public EV charging locations
(I am envious).
Please POST what these outlets are and glad public EV charging
is got a good beginning in the UK.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Uh, because you can't print out the patent from
> Google's patent search
> results.
I just saved the .png file for each screen.
Not an easy or simple solution, but I saved all the
.png images and imported them into Adobe (not a
solution if you don't have the purchased version of
Adobe). I saved the 1841 patent by Samuel Morse for
the telegraph and put it into a 8 page PDF if anybody
is interested. I guess you could import and paste
.png images into another format.
Rod
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 7:56 am, DM3 wrote:
> > > You can get a copy of all of Teslas patents in a
> book:
> > > "The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla" by Jim
> Glenn
>
> > Why do that when they are now free?
> > That was the point.
>
> Uh, because you can't print out the patent from
> Google's patent search
> results.
> You can print a page or two or a diagram or two, but
> it doesn't let you
> print the whole thing.
> Try it yourself.
> If there's a workaround other than Alt-PrintScreen,
> please advise.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 24, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
So, when a battery gets old an tired, does it somehow work the battery
next to it harder? These are not buddy pairs, just a 24 orbital string.
No, but when a battery sags badly the pack voltage drops and all the
batteries have to put out more current to supply the motor the required
power. When the required current exceeds what you tested at the bad
batteries could be doing even more "interesting" things - like dropping
to zero volts or even to a negative voltage!
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BB600 nicad pack has a couple hundred miles since that last
massive watering. Only 4 redtops were lower by 1/8" compared to the
other redtops. So they got more water to level them off. None of the
greentops were low at all. This is significant because they only went
450 miles on a watering last time. Since I'm half way to that point
again, it's nice to see the levels are up high. This is mainly due to
the reduction in charge time of around 75%. Also doubling the amount
of water in the cells is helpful too. No spillage from any of the
cells being so full. I'm expecting at least 1500 miles between
waterings now. We'll see. The garage is strangely silent as the truck
shuts off about an hour after the pack is full at 5 hours max. The
truck use to run about 12-20 hours per day.
This week the nicad pack has 3000 miles in it. Range is fine at about
10kwhrs max. I've done several 30 miles runs. The Emeter says my
average run is still 15.5 miles.
The truck has also been in my possesion for 2 years as of this month.
I've added 8000 miles to it. After having 104 lead acid Hawkers, then
the Prius pack, these nicads are the best so far. In fact so good I've
gotten completely lazy about getting a BMS going for it. It's just
such a a joy to drive that I spend time on my other projects.
Here are the pics from the pack exploding due to excess hydrogen
buildup in the battery box. http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nicads/
I really need to get the battery box lid flattened out more. It's
letting road dust and maybe moisture into the pack.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bill Dennis
> I'd like to put 21 of my shunt regulators on a single mount so that I
> can easily pull off in toto when I need to tighten the battery
> connectors. My plan is to run short lengths of wire from each cell
> through a fuse to some sort of connectors, then have mating connectors
> on the regulator mount. Anyone have a recommendation for a type of ZIF
> (Zero Insertion Force) connector that might work for this?
If it has to be ZIF, the choices are few. You coulduse a 24-pin ZIF connector
for an IC socket, but they aren't built for 3 amps or high voltage. You could
use a ZIF edge connector intended for PC boards; they could handle 3 amps, but
again, the voltage might be a problem.
I think it would be better to choose a standard-insertion-force connector, as
there are hundreds of them. My first though would a a circular plastic
connector (AMP or equivalent) as both male and female pins are relatively well
protected.
> Would two pieces of 1-inch square aluminum work if they were held tightly
> together, or is there a better alternative?
I don't understand what this is for.
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
I know you've done these calculations in the past, but I still am
blown away by them.
Let's overestimate and say 3,000 lbs for the cars weight. 60 PC680's.
Two packs of 30 for 360 volts.
How much range for all this money? How much will different motor
sizes affect range? Which motor for maximum performance(1/4 mile)?
Two motors? Which size for the two?
Big Zilla2K of course. After spending $5,000 on a box, I'd really
like to run a lot more voltage. 348 volts seems to me to be holding
back the EV performance world. 360 is doable but likely frowned upon.
I think Bill Dube can get away with running 384 volts because when
charged up, that IS the voltage. Unlike with 12 V lead acid, if we
had a "384 volt" pack, it would be like 460 volts when fully charged
up would it not?
$5,000 for a motor.... $5,000 for a controller.... $5,000 for 60 batteries...
3 things... no maintenance(?)... How fast? How much range? I want
to be able to cruise this speedy silent machine. It would be much
more neighborhood friendly having a fast car that was silent.
It's not like we're talking about spending $5, $50, or $500 here...
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
From: damon henry
>The shunt will not get hot at it's rated currents.
Not exactly "hot", but they do run pretty warm at rated current. A 500amp 50mv
shunt is dissipating 25 watts at its full 500 amps. It would get truly hot if
you put it in a closed box.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bruce
>> I wonder if it is really legal for Tangos to drive two abreast?
I got this answer from Rick Woodbury of Commuter Cars Inc.
> According to testimony given at a Senate Transportation Committee
> Hearing in WA state by a captain of the WA State Patrol, it is legal for
> 2 Tango to share a lane, but not overtake in a lane.
>
> In CA all 30 traffic officers who were asked, mostly CHP, unanimously
> stated that they would not ticket Tangos for lane splitting. Lane
> sharing is certainly not a problem.
>
> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 70 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Lee. No, it doesn't have to be ZIF. It just needs to be a type
of connector that I can pull 21 of (or 42 of, if you count positive and
negative) apart easily at the same time. Because of the shape of the
shunt regulators, they cover the battery connection bolts. So I want to
mount them in front of each cell in some kind of holders so that I can
pop them off when I need to tighten the connections. If possible, I'd
like to pull all 21 regulators off at a time instead of having to remove
each one individually. For example, if I used fuse clips, I'd run a #12
wire from cell positive to a fuse clip. The positive of the shunt
regular would attach to the fuse clip. The negative of the regulator
would attach to a second fuse clip, which the had a #12 wire running
back to cell negative. Hope that paints a little better picture of what
I'm aiming for.
Bill Dennis
Lee Hart wrote:
From: Bill Dennis
I'd like to put 21 of my shunt regulators on a single mount so that I
can easily pull off in toto when I need to tighten the battery
connectors. My plan is to run short lengths of wire from each cell
through a fuse to some sort of connectors, then have mating connectors
on the regulator mount. Anyone have a recommendation for a type of ZIF
(Zero Insertion Force) connector that might work for this?
If it has to be ZIF, the choices are few. You coulduse a 24-pin ZIF connector
for an IC socket, but they aren't built for 3 amps or high voltage. You could
use a ZIF edge connector intended for PC boards; they could handle 3 amps, but
again, the voltage might be a problem.
I think it would be better to choose a standard-insertion-force connector, as
there are hundreds of them. My first though would a a circular plastic
connector (AMP or equivalent) as both male and female pins are relatively well
protected.
Would two pieces of 1-inch square aluminum work if they were held tightly
together, or is there a better alternative?
I don't understand what this is for.
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I'm sooooo excited that my friend Chip Gribben has designed a new
T-shirt for me! For those unaware, Chip is 'the' force behind all of the
coolest looking cartoon artwork that has transformed NEDRA the past few
years. From the Power of DC, to Battery Beach Burnout, to the Late Night
Nationals, they're all Chip's handiwork. After seeing his rendition of
White Zombie alongside Gone Postal on the Late Night Nationals design, I
just knew I had to have White Zombie T-shirts. Rather than tell everyone
how great it looks, simply go to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com, then
click on the 'Photos' button. Tomorrow, I'll be at a local T-shirt
printer to have the first dozen shirts made up, so the Plasma Boy team
can wear them at this weekend's 'Portland Roadster Show.
Make sure to post back to the EVDL and let Chip know what you all think!
When available for sale, all profits will go to Chip to help cover his
art supply costs. Chip has never asked for anything in return for all
his efforts, I just think we need to support this great EVer.
See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've only worked on AC systems (actually BLDC, but they are
practially an AC system), and NiCd batteries - which can take
some fast regen for a while. Regen current would often
be as high as motoring current - around 200A at the motor,
which was its current limit. Battery current would
simply be a ratio of motor power - ie. if the motor was
braking at 30kW, you'd get about 29kW into the battery and
about 1kW of heat in the controller and motor windings. Take
that and divide by pack voltage to get pack current (for example,
30,000 watts / 150 volts (battery pack voltage) = 150 amperes.
That may actually be from a motor voltage of 120 volts and a
motor current of 250 amperes - the contoller steps the voltage up
and the current down.
To put this another way - if you take 12 seconds for a 0-60
run with a given motor, if you want to decelerate from 60-0
using regeneration in the same time, you need pretty much the
same power capability in the generator. It is convenient for
an AC system since an appropriately sized generator is already
there.
An AC induction motor is simple - just command a lower
motor speed than it's spinning at and the power magically comes
out of the DC wires to the battery. BLDC will basically retard
the timing of the commutation to create a -90 degree (instead of
+90 degree) timing. That's easy. Just flip the direction input.
Well, it's not quite that easy - but almost.
Battery charging at that rate may not be that efficient but
in normal city driving, if your batteries will accept that
charge rate, you can get a 10 to 30% range extension.
Victor's metricmind site has some good graphs showing
a data log from his AC inverter and the amount of regen
he shows is what I've seen too.
-Dale
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--- Begin Message ---
Jan-Olaf Willums, chairman of Norway's TH!NK Electric
Car Co., is betting he will find a market in Europe
and the United States for his two-seater "city" car.
The company previously had ties to Ford Motor Co.
The company raised $25 million in February and aims to
double the funding amount by May, he said. It expects
to begin production in Norway in September, with
marketing focused first in Europe and then the United
States.
There needs to be an all out effort to remove NHTSA
regulatory barriers to overseas made EV entry into the
U.S. This may be an appropriate priority for the EAA
and partner NPOs/NGOs.
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most excellent. Looks like Chip could get a small business going here, if he
doesn't already have one.
Well John, ....tell us where we'll be able to buy one.....
we'll need something motivational to wear working on the Pinto project. I
can't afford to get all my work shirts dirty ;-)
(check your off-list mail from me :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:44 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm sooooo excited that my friend Chip Gribben has designed a new
> T-shirt for me! For those unaware, Chip is 'the' force behind all of the
> coolest looking cartoon artwork that has transformed NEDRA the past few
> years. From the Power of DC, to Battery Beach Burnout, to the Late Night
> Nationals, they're all Chip's handiwork. After seeing his rendition of
> White Zombie alongside Gone Postal on the Late Night Nationals design, I
> just knew I had to have White Zombie T-shirts. Rather than tell everyone
> how great it looks, simply go to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com, then
> click on the 'Photos' button. Tomorrow, I'll be at a local T-shirt
> printer to have the first dozen shirts made up, so the Plasma Boy team
> can wear them at this weekend's 'Portland Roadster Show.
>
> Make sure to post back to the EVDL and let Chip know what you all think!
> When available for sale, all profits will go to Chip to help cover his
> art supply costs. Chip has never asked for anything in return for all
> his efforts, I just think we need to support this great EVer.
>
> See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla will scale back the output and eventually shut down. You can call
this protecting itself, but if you run air cooled and
it happens to run in limiting a lot of the time it is still hard on the
electronics. For longevity sake I think Otmar would
recommend running some water cooling. It doesn't take very much. A small pump
and a small water reseviour will do nicely to
absord the temerature spikes caused by transients of high current.
> David Brandt wrote
>
> 3) The zilla will shut down to protect itself if it gets too hot, so running
> air cooled won't hurt it.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> I don't think this is the issue.
> It could be, but not in this case.
Interesting as they are, I'm not sure I see how any of the scenarios you
describe could explain the behaviour he was experiencing. If the potbox
were at fault, there would be no reason for it to work when the
controller is fed 48V but not when fed 96V; if the controller were wet,
it is unlikely that it would work normally on 48V, and for a few minutes
at 96V, but then act up on 96V.
The 96V/48V setup sounds like that of the Bradley GT conversions.
The controller apparently operates fine on 48V in, but not on 96V. This
tends to suggest that the pack may be having difficulty supplying the
peak currents that the EV-1 subjects it to. In 96V mode, there would
likely be a single series string; in 48V mode the current is divided
between two parallel strings, so the cells have an easier job keeping up
with the demands.
If his controller is seeing the full 96V input, then it is likely to be
an 84-144V input model and will operate normally until the input voltage
falls below 42V.
It might be possible for him to be using a 48V input controller across
only the top half of the pack in 96V mode, and if this is the case, then
the reported behaviour might indicate that the portion of the pack that
is feeding the controller in this mode is having trouble keeping up, and
is dropping below the 24V threshold below which proper operation of the
EV-1 is not guaranteed.
I would certainly start by monitoring the battery voltage at the input
to the controller to see if it is unexpectedly high or low (less than
1/2 of the lower voltage rating of the controller) when the odd
behaviour occurs.
Cheers,
Roger.
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