EV Digest 6499
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 620 Datsun Truck EV candidate.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Nicad update
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric Bike as Cordless Tool
by "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) newbie - dc motor speed/hp/current/volts characteristics for racing!
by "Scott Littledike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: newbie - dc motor speed/hp/current/volts characteristics for racing!
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV's, Ewoody and safety,
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: newbie - dc motor speed/hp/current/volts characteristics for racing!
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Various Controller Thoughts (was RE: Contactor controller control?)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Delta-Q charger
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EVLN(Pickup line: 'Come ride in my new electric car!')
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Delta-Q charger
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: newbie - dc motor speed/hp/current/volts characteristics for racing!
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) u tube porsche video burn out
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVLN(Pickup line: 'Come ride in my new electric car!')
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EVLN(Pickup line: 'Come ride in my new electric car!')
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Nicad mixing
by Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What are the largest advertised capacity, non PowerStream NiMH cells that
anyone has seen?
These claim 14AH but aren't there bigger cells than these available?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=834
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about 100Ah:
http://www.chunlan.com/en/2product/6battery_2parameter.htm
Although in truth, Chunlan might be PowerStream's supplier. And
they're definitely not cheap, I got quoted US$153ea for QNFG80s (in
quantity), which works out at $1.60 per Wh (over twice as much as
those F cells in your link - ridiculous!)
NiMH is dead, go for Lithium. :)
-Ian
On 02/03/2007, at 3:38 PM, Bruce wrote:
What are the largest advertised capacity, non PowerStream NiMH
cells that
anyone has seen?
These claim 14AH but aren't there bigger cells than these available?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=834
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/286673719.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Mar 2007 at 16:27, Rod Hower wrote:
> I drove 30,000 miles
> in TEVans and always seen this knee.
Saft mentions in their docs for the MR / MRE batteries that this voltage
spike is not as prominent in those batteries. That's why they recommend amp
hour monitoring for them.
There are some indications that the older style Saft STM modules, with
individal cell caps instead of the closed top, are easier to charge and more
durable than the MR / MREs. But those are very hard to find, and you can
(for now) still get the MR / MREs from Saft.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Mick says: Impressive bike, Martin, but how do you get any exercise with
it?
Do you actually want it to go EVen faster? I think the DeWalt pack is
rated
only 2.3 amp-hours. 2.3 X 10 cells X 3.6 volts = 83 watt-hours. V28 packs
are 3 amp hours X 7 cells X 3.6 volts = 76 watt-hours, so watt-hours per
pack is similar.
Mick says: An upgrade to 36 volts would make the controller draw energy
more
quickly from the pack, but that raises survivability questions for the
Scott
24 volt motor. I think you should stay 24 volts but that's mere
speculation
from a guy who feels that 35 mph is already fast enough for a bicycle. Top
speed would increase anyway just by getting the lead out.
The only exercise I get is from pushing the 105 lb beast up a hill when I
venture out too far. Unfortunately my drive train design did not
accommodate pedals. I ride my other bike for exercise. I'm really looking
for more range than anything else. So your right, I don't need the 36V
pack. My controller can handle the 36V and I think the motor would also
perform well even though it is rated at 24V. I have not tested this yet.
I'm not sure the standard bicycle chain would appreciate the 36 volts.
Damon Henry said: "If you are dealing with any kind of smart charger, no you
can not leave things in parallel as you will most likely confuse the
smarts."
[Mick says:] I agree with Damon. On the V28 system there's a third
connection from battery to pack which I suspect is doing more than just
sensing the battery temperature. I think there's a two way conversation
going on which could be adversely affected by placing one charger parallel
across more than one battery pack.
This too is my intuition--I'm just waiting to hear from someone who has
actually tried charging these "smart" packs in parallel with a single
"smart" charger. Being able to easily plug them in and out of the bike and
then charging them separately is always an option at the expense of
convenience.
Mick says: Tony Hwang's thought about "two chargers in parallel to charge
two batteries in parallel" shows good outside the box thinking but a
similarly high chance of messing up the "conversation". I don't want to
try
to outsmart these already smart battery solutions. As my father used to
say,
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
Damon Henry said: "since one of these packs can supply enough current for
an
ebike, there really is no reason to wire them in parallel. A system that
easily lets you switch from a dying battery to a fresh one achieves the
same
result."
[Mick says:] I think the result would not be identical, because EVen
lithium batteries must have a Peukert's exponent higher than 1. Putting
two
packs in parallel should more than double the range obtainable from one.
Experienced EV List members are invited to chime in. I thought about
rigging
up for just a single battery in the box, then carrying a couple of spares
in
the panniers. That's still tempting as I could jettison the Schottky
diodes
with their attendant energy loss. However, I do note a significant voltage
suppression when running the bike on just one pack and I think parallel
packs would help that. Also, the battery packs should stay cooler if they
are sharing the load.
I'm not sure that the one-pack-at-a-time approach will work in my case as my
main commute consists of an average grade between 4 to 5% over 7 miles.
Sharing the current across a number of packs seems more efficient. The
single pack approach seems more reasonable for a more level terrain.
[Mick says:] Martin: I think you should consider about 6 of the V28 packs in
parallel with diodes and a precharge resistor setup, along with a couple
of
V28/V18 battery chargers. That gets you 18 amp hours @ 25.2 volts for
about
15 pounds. It also could allow dangerously high amperage surges so make
sure
you've got appropriate safety measures in place. If you could give up some
range in exchange for lighter weight, you might EVen start with 4 packs in
parallel. More could be added later.
The specs on my AGM's (sears wheel chair battery) call out 32Ahr yet the C
rate is not specified. My guess is it's the typical 20C and that the 32Ahr
is a lot less for the way I'm discharging them. Any one know what the
typical derating would be from 20C to 1C for an AGM? What's the discharge
rate for the 18Ahr Milwaukee battery spec? I'd like to run some
calculations to compare the range with my existing setup (54 lbs of lead
acid) with the 15 pounds of lithium. The 40 lbs of weight savings could
offset the decrease in energy (768Whr vs. 504Whr) especially considering my
hilly commute. I'll take a look at the eMoli site in the mean time.
Martin
For those who are interested, the Milwaukee battery packs are equipped with
cells made by a Canadian company called eMoli. That can be googled out if
you want to find the mfr's website. The powerful warranty shows a lot of
confidence that these companies have in their bundled solution.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there,
I am trying to design a high speed electric motorcycle (100mph+) with a 1 -
2 mile range, for several reasons - personal learning and interest, to
generate more interest of EV's here in the UK, and for possible competition
use later on.
Im a student, and will have to build the vehicle on a budget.. im looking at
the SVR agm lead acid batteries, probably 120v to start with.
I have been trying to predict my bikes performance, but i am struggling to
understand basic motor theory, how DC motors deliver power across their
speed range, how i should gear the motor etc, i was hoping some of you could
help!
For example, lets say i use a single ADC L91. Lets presume (for simplicity)
that my batterys have 800A current limited by the controller (from my
understanding, controllers vary the current but not voltage). I understand
that motors deliver peak hp at 0rpm?
So the motor will produce peak hp at 0rpm, with maximum current draw.. will
the hp (& therefore current draw) then reduce as motor speed increases?
looking at the graph for the L91, it looks like by 5000rpm, the hp is about
1/3 of the peak? surely though, at 5000rpm you would be at near max speed,
where you want hp most.. so why no need for a transmission? How do you get
more hp at high rpm.. if all the power is at low motor speed, why does
everyone gear their motors to 6000rpm rather than 1000rpm.. im pretty
confused!!
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Many Thanks
Scott
_________________________________________________________________
Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes!
http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/2/07, Scott Littledike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi there,
I am trying to design a high speed electric motorcycle (100mph+) with a 1 -
2 mile range, for several reasons - personal learning and interest, to
generate more interest of EV's here in the UK, and for possible competition
use later on.
Welcome, sounds good.
Im a student, and will have to build the vehicle on a budget.. im looking at
the SVR agm lead acid batteries, probably 120v to start with.
I have been trying to predict my bikes performance, but i am struggling to
understand basic motor theory, how DC motors deliver power across their
speed range, how i should gear the motor etc, i was hoping some of you could
help!
You may want to start with the electrical engineering section of your
school's library, and read the archives of this list for a while.
For example, lets say i use a single ADC L91. Lets presume (for simplicity)
that my batterys have 800A current limited by the controller (from my
understanding, controllers vary the current but not voltage). I understand
that motors deliver peak hp at 0rpm?
No, power is torque multiplied by speed (or voltage multiplied by
current). Current is related to torque and voltage to speed. Series
wound DC Motors naturally produce a high torque at 0 RPM (and low
speeds). So from standstill, the voltage at the motor will be low
(a few volts), and the current high (as high as the controller limit
allows) - this is a small amount of power. Since the voltage at the
battery will be in the 120V area, the current drawn from it will be
small at this stage (i.e. matching the power delivered to the motor,
plus losses).
So the motor will produce peak hp at 0rpm, with maximum current draw.. will
the hp (& therefore current draw) then reduce as motor speed increases?
No, see above.
where you want hp most.. so why no need for a transmission? How do you get
more hp at high rpm..
Provide more voltage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 2, 2007 12:17:10 AM
Subject: Re: EV's, Ewoody and safety,
<snip>
All I'm doing is offering the opposing opinion. I don't
believe you'll see widespread acceptance of EV's until
they are nearly form, fit and function to ICE's. That
includes crash testing. You don't have to agree with that
if you don't like, but reality is on my side.
Crashworthiness is a selling point to a lot of buyers.
In my opinion too, a crash tested/passed EV is "better"
than one that isn't, so yes, I am all for arguing to
make EV's better.
<snip>
I think this might be true in today's paradigm of readily available fossil
fuels and great personal wealth. Once fuel starts becoming less readily
available with cost through the roof coupled with a declining economy, I expect
to see a lot more interest in alternatives. People will be less interested in
crash safety if the alternative means they have to walk.
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a few extra comments:
- More hp at high rpm: Could also look at a better motor, the ADC
ones aren't really designed for high rpms. Or just use a lower gear
ratio with a bigger motor.
- Controllers do actually vary the voltage, which effectively varies
the current (if you consider the motor to be more or less a resistive
load..)
- 1-2 mile range @ 100mph is an unusual case because that's basically
draining the whole battery in about 1 minute, which is a 60C
discharge rate (as in 1/60th of an hour). Not many batteries can
handle this sort of load - in fact I can only think of one which
comes close:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/cells.html
They are pretty expensive (~US$10ea), but 35 of these would give you
a 120 volt pack weighing a little over 5 pounds and able to deliver
around 12kW! (for 1 minute or so..)
Make sure you have life insurance ;)
On 02/03/2007, at 8:39 PM, Evan Tuer wrote:
On 3/2/07, Scott Littledike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi there,
I am trying to design a high speed electric motorcycle (100mph+)
with a 1 -
2 mile range, for several reasons - personal learning and
interest, to
generate more interest of EV's here in the UK, and for possible
competition
use later on.
Welcome, sounds good.
Im a student, and will have to build the vehicle on a budget.. im
looking at
the SVR agm lead acid batteries, probably 120v to start with.
I have been trying to predict my bikes performance, but i am
struggling to
understand basic motor theory, how DC motors deliver power across
their
speed range, how i should gear the motor etc, i was hoping some of
you could
help!
You may want to start with the electrical engineering section of your
school's library, and read the archives of this list for a while.
For example, lets say i use a single ADC L91. Lets presume (for
simplicity)
that my batterys have 800A current limited by the controller (from my
understanding, controllers vary the current but not voltage). I
understand
that motors deliver peak hp at 0rpm?
No, power is torque multiplied by speed (or voltage multiplied by
current). Current is related to torque and voltage to speed. Series
wound DC Motors naturally produce a high torque at 0 RPM (and low
speeds). So from standstill, the voltage at the motor will be low
(a few volts), and the current high (as high as the controller limit
allows) - this is a small amount of power. Since the voltage at the
battery will be in the 120V area, the current drawn from it will be
small at this stage (i.e. matching the power delivered to the motor,
plus losses).
So the motor will produce peak hp at 0rpm, with maximum current
draw.. will
the hp (& therefore current draw) then reduce as motor speed
increases?
No, see above.
where you want hp most.. so why no need for a transmission? How do
you get
more hp at high rpm..
Provide more voltage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the math overview, Cor, Lee, and Jerry. That's a pretty good
brain-trust, between the three of you!
A contactor controller hangs well in price with a variable controller at
48V/300A, but CCs scale less quickly on price/amps than PWM controllers.
I know that price shouldn't be the only consideration, but it certainly
is *one* consideration.
I'd like to avoid the complexity/weight of transmission and gear
changes, but a beefy contactor for WFO may make sense.
The tradeoffs of acceleration/weight/cost/complexity are becoming
clearer...
>From http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/GolfCart.aspx
* for a 48V pack, 8 Trojan T-125 6V floodies heft 528lbs, 6 T-875 8Vs
are 378lbs, and 4 T1275s are 328lbs
* for a 72V pack, 12 Trojan T-125 6V floodies heft 792lbs, 9 T-875 8Vs
are 567lbs, and 6 T1275s are 492lbs
That's a lotta lead, however you cut it!
Thanks!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Looking at the pictures, it looks like the comm end of the motors is farther
outboard than the shaft end. Or is the intent that the 'center of mass' of
the motors is in the center of the bike? Anyhow, I'm looking at putting a
L-91 motor in my bike, but the thing is so long, I'll need a jackshaft to
bring the drive back inboard to drive the rear wheel. Did you just get
lucky that the motor lines up with the wheel? Knowing you, probably good
design. Even running a JrDragster rear wouldn't be wide enough to line
up...... Suggestions?
Darin
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
I'll take a photo of that this weekend as I reassemble the drive.
I bought two twin-row 18 tooth (and 16 tooth) #60 sprockets. I then
machined the inner sides to thin down the #60 (0.5 inch wide) to fit #630
motorcycle chain (0.375" wide.) A short loop of chain on the outside
sprockets links the motors to each other. The inside sprocket of the rear
motor drives the rear tire sprocket.
The motors are spaced 7.5 inches apart. This makes ten links of #630
exactly.
Bill Dube'
At 09:49 PM 3/1/2007, you wrote:
I'd still like to see how the 2 motors are coupled together to drive
the rear wheel as I've never seen that particular detail before.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.5/706 - Release Date: 2/28/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks. It
is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than a
gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill it
up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily range
needed. I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power the
car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
battery.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered, and
it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really oversold
the aircar on Future Car.
John
--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
> on Future Car, I think
> compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
> the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
> to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles many
> times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
> imagined this vehicle.
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
> PHEV.
> Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
>
>
> Brandon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000
destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stocton wrote:
Roger (who works for Delta-Q ;^).
Is there a Delta-Q charger available for a 144V pack? The highest voltage I can
find in their literature is 72V.
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would believe this. I switched from typical 80-90 gear lube to Redline
tranny and differential oil. Big difference.
I can't believe how much easier the tranny shifted when cold once all
that drag off the syncros was removed. Mileage did go up and case temp
went down. I did it mainly because on the weekends I was autocrossing
and slow shifting resulted in grinding gears unless I waited.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's one of the most interesting EV news articles
I've seen Bruce post :-)
Reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon,
Girl: Frankly, I'm insulted that you asked me out.
Girl: It means you think we're the same level of
attractiveness.
Girl: You better have one heckuva sexy car
Dilbert: It's electric
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(Pickup line: 'Come ride in my new electric
> car!')
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article1453273.ece
> >From The Times March 01, 2007
> The real international man of mystery
>
> Kevin Maher speaks to Edward Norton, star of The
> Illusionist and
> an enigma in his spare time
>
> Edward Norton is impenetrable. We know this because
> weve seen
> him playing a series of conmen, tricksters,
> schizoids and
> award-winning shysters who keep the rest of the
> world at a firm
> and fixed distance.
> [...]
> His subsequent relationship with Hayek also became
> leading
> tabloid fodder, especially when the Daily Mirror
> allegedly
> overheard Norton wooing an LA lap-dancer with the
> immortal line:
> I want you to come for a ride in my new electric
> car!
> [...]
> © Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd
> -
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Cheap talk?
> Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
> http://voice.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motors are off-set from the centerline of the bike slightly. The
weight distribution seems to be well-centered, however. The sprockets
and chain are quite heavy so they counterbalance the slightly off-set motors.
Bill Dube'
At 04:30 AM 3/2/2007, you wrote:
Bill,
Looking at the pictures, it looks like the comm end of the motors is
farther outboard than the shaft end. Or is the intent that the
'center of mass' of the motors is in the center of the
bike? Anyhow, I'm looking at putting a L-91 motor in my bike, but
the thing is so long, I'll need a jackshaft to bring the drive back
inboard to drive the rear wheel. Did you just get lucky that the
motor lines up with the wheel? Knowing you, probably good
design. Even running a JrDragster rear wouldn't be wide enough to
line up...... Suggestions?
Darin
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
I'll take a photo of that this weekend as I reassemble the drive.
I bought two twin-row 18 tooth (and 16 tooth) #60 sprockets. I then
machined the inner sides to thin down the #60 (0.5 inch wide) to
fit #630 motorcycle chain (0.375" wide.) A short loop of chain on
the outside sprockets links the motors to each other. The inside
sprocket of the rear motor drives the rear tire sprocket.
The motors are spaced 7.5 inches apart. This makes ten links of #630 exactly.
Bill Dube'
At 09:49 PM 3/1/2007, you wrote:
I'd still like to see how the 2 motors are coupled together to drive
the rear wheel as I've never seen that particular detail before.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.5/706 - Release Date: 2/28/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm,
I hope Roger does chime in with a response (I also would like to
know. As some know) As some know, I spend way too much money on
chargers I do not need, to test them and report to the EV
community (good, bad, so-so). I haven't yet, but I would like to
test a Delta-Q.
I wanted to buy a Delta-Q charger to charge my 132V pack but as
you have POSTed, Delta-Q does not offer either higher voltage
chargers, nor two lower voltage chargers that would charge my
132V wet-cell PbSO4 pack in a split-pack charging configuration.
Another issue is when one splits a pack to use multiple chargers,
you have to total all the individual charger's AC amperage draw.
It may be more than a 110VAC 20amp outlet will handle.
In your (144VDC pack) case, according to
http://www.delta-q.com/documents/QuiQ-data-sheet.pdf
two chargers would draw (2 * 9.5 rms AC amps =) 19amps. Electrical
code only allows for 80% load on an AC breaker. So to run both
chargers at the same time you either need two individually
breaker-ed 110VAC 20 amp outlets, or one 110VAC 30 amps (or higher)
power source.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Scott,
Well, for starters, motors deliver zero power at zero rpm. I think you
confuse power and torque.
Jeff
Scott Littledike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi there,
I am trying to design a high speed electric motorcycle (100mph+) with a 1 -
2 mile range, for several reasons - personal learning and interest, to
generate more interest of EV's here in the UK, and for possible competition
use later on.
Im a student, and will have to build the vehicle on a budget.. im looking at
the SVR agm lead acid batteries, probably 120v to start with.
I have been trying to predict my bikes performance, but i am struggling to
understand basic motor theory, how DC motors deliver power across their
speed range, how i should gear the motor etc, i was hoping some of you could
help!
For example, lets say i use a single ADC L91. Lets presume (for simplicity)
that my batterys have 800A current limited by the controller (from my
understanding, controllers vary the current but not voltage). I understand
that motors deliver peak hp at 0rpm?
So the motor will produce peak hp at 0rpm, with maximum current draw.. will
the hp (& therefore current draw) then reduce as motor speed increases?
looking at the graph for the L91, it looks like by 5000rpm, the hp is about
1/3 of the peak? surely though, at 5000rpm you would be at near max speed,
where you want hp most.. so why no need for a transmission? How do you get
more hp at high rpm.. if all the power is at low motor speed, why does
everyone gear their motors to 6000rpm rather than 1000rpm.. im pretty
confused!!
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Many Thanks
Scott
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--- Begin Message ---
A friend took this on my camara ,, and down loaded to u tube this was a film
crue taking some video of my porsche , its under battery powered Porsche . The
film crue was for the discovery channel in Cannada , don't know if or when it
will air
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=battery+powered+porsche&search=Search
Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Rod,
I thought some would enjoy that one.
...
In my way-younger years (when I wasn't so hard to look at),
the era was not that of today where stating you drive cleaner
transportation would be a 'dating' incentive. An EV date-mobile
was a relative unknown. She might consider you a geek, nerd,
or a down-right weirdo.
After establishing the date and picking her up, did I let her
know the vehicle was Electric as we drove off.
She exclaimed, "What!?! ... This thing's Electric!?!"
Pointing to the in-dash meters, I said with a smile, "No gas,
no smog, just a smooth ride ... "
I explained just enough to calm her down, but not overwhelm
her with EV info (I did not want to spoil the date). Later, as
we were leaving the restaurant's parking lot after our dinner
with another couple, he came over to try to chide me about
being different.
Peering at me with a smirk from her passenger side window, he
said, "So where's the Vrooom, Vrooom!?", meaning if a car did
not make a macho-excepted noise the car, like the driver, was
a wimp.
I said as I drove off with the high pitched controller whine,
"My power is fine, I'm Electric: I just keep going, and going,
and going ..." She grinned as she knew what I meant.
She smiled as she said she wondered when I was going to use
the pack's range to purposely 'run out of gas' on our next
date (a funny twist on an old ploy).
Ah, those were the good ol' days.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Rod,
I thought some would enjoy that one.
...
In my way-younger years (when I wasn't so hard to look at),
the era was not that of today where stating you drive cleaner
transportation would be a 'dating' incentive. An EV date-mobile
was a relative unknown. She might consider you a geek, nerd,
or a down-right weirdo.
After establishing the date and picking her up, did I let her
know the vehicle was Electric as we drove off.
She exclaimed, "What!?! ... This thing's Electric!?!"
Pointing to the in-dash meters, I said with a smile, "No gas,
no smog, just a smooth ride ... "
I explained just enough to calm her down, but not overwhelm
her with EV info (I did not want to spoil the date). Later, as
we were leaving the restaurant's parking lot after our dinner
with another couple, he came over to try to chide me about
being different.
Peering at me with a smirk from her passenger side window, he
said, "So where's the Vrooom, Vrooom!?", meaning if a car did
not make a macho-excepted noise the car, like the driver, was
a wimp.
I said as I drove off with the high pitched controller whine,
"My power is fine, I'm Electric: I just keep going, and going,
and going ..." She grinned as she knew what I meant.
She smiled as she said she wondered when I was going to use
the pack's range to purposely 'run out of gas' on our next
date (a funny twist on an old ploy).
Ah, those were the good ol' days.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all who repsonded for the usefull info.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 15:12 +0000, damon henry wrote:
> Sure it can be done, but it is full of gotcha's. It's actually not all that
> uncommon of a thing to do for testing purposes. For instance if you have
> lead acid based vehicle already and you are considering using some form of
> Nicad and you want some real world test data, just put a sample NiCad in the
> string and monitor it to see how it performs.
>
> For general use it is a bad idea however, because it is hard to give each
> type of battery the right care. You will need a way to monitor each
> different type of battery and make sure that they are getting the proper
> charge and not being over discharged. Also NiCad and Lead Acid are a
> particularly bad mix because their electrolytes are on opposite ends of the
> PH scale with one be full of acid and the other full of a base. You have to
> be careful not to contaminate the two which is most easily done by keeping
> them physically separatated and having separate sets of tools for each.
> This is often hard to achieve if they are snuggled together in a common
> battery pack.
>
> I have done all of the above, but only for testing purposes or with
> batteries that I really did not care about, and only for short times, but in
> a pinch a battery is a battery, and if you understand the needs of each of
> your batteries and provide them proper care then it's just basic electronics
> after that.
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Nicad mixing
> >Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:03:55 +0000
> >
> >Does anyone know if I can mix and match differnt types of nicads in
> >series or parallel? Not whilst charging just for discharge.
> >
> >Specifically what will happen if the following cells are combined in
> >series? in parallel?
> >Alcads rated 230Ah at the 5 hours rate (about 100Ah at one hour)
> >Nife cells rated 80Ah at the one hour rate
> >Saft STM100 -100Ah at one hour
> >
> > >From what I have read (saft and alcad data) there shouldn't be a
> >problem, the batteries may discharge/charge which will slightly shorten
> >their life but doesn't cause too much damage. Have I understood
> >correctly?
> >
> >I have another question which is probably really stupid, what happens if
> >you connect lead and nicad batteries in series?
> >
> >thanks for any help
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Win a Zunemake MSN your homepage for your chance to win!
> http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Are these photos hosted anywhere that doesn't require the Yahoo
hoop-jumping?
Cor van de Water wrote:
Brandon,
To get an idea of the tanks (occupying the entire double floor of the MDI
Aircar) you can check out the photos I took when I visited them:
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/photos
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know the overall efficiency of electricity --> Compressor -->
Compressed Air --> mechanical energy --> electricity? You could skip
the last step ...
Brandon Kruger wrote:
Hello,
Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar" on Future Car, I
think
compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on the
weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy being
stored,
it could definitely yield a higher energy density then lead-acid.
Using a
motor to drive a generator, it would be possible to electrically recharge
the car and it would deliver life cycles many times higher than and
battery
of today. I made a diagram of how I imagined this vehicle.
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial PHEV.
Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
there
some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the amount of
energy that can be stored as compressed air?
Brandon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, what has been played with is the "hydraulic hybrid".
In fact is is more appropriate to call it a "pneumatic hybrid" since the
energy is stored in compressed air. It has hydraulic fluid in a tank of
compressed air. When you need more acceleration than the motor can put
out, it runs the pressurized hydraulic fluid through a hydraulic motor.
The hydraulic fluid is captured in a low pressure reservoir. The tank
is recharged on braking (or when there is extra HP) by pumping the fluid
back into the tank under pressure.
So note the difference- the motor/pump is just a hydraulic motor, not
pneumatic. The amount of use you can get out of the tank is limited not
only by the volume of compressed air but the volume of hydraulic fluid.
This also requires a significant volume for the fluid recovery tank.
Ford has made some buzz for an F150 hydraulic hybrid truck.
This would get around all the noise problem of pneumatics. Also I think
it might get around the temp swing problem to some degree, which kills
efficiency. In a small pneumatic motor, the air will cool and lose
pressure at a very predictable rate as it expands, even for the first
milliliter of air. Here we're taking a large volume and reducing
pressure slower. It will inevitably cool down but not right away.
Perhaps the tank could be warmed as the temp drops?
Danny
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks. It
is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than a
gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill it
up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily range
needed. I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power the
car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
battery.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered, and
it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really oversold
the aircar on Future Car.
John
--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
on Future Car, I think
compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles many
times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
imagined this vehicle.
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
PHEV.
Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
Brandon
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
