EV Digest 6510
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(phEVs make hybrids gas guzzlers; revised CARB mandate)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have
ever been in the last 10 years!
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have
ever been in the last 10 years!
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen thi
s one done before
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Race Preps for DC Motors
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(phEVs make hybrids gas guzzlers; revised CARB mandate)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/04/ING44OD4AS1.DTL
Cars that make hybrids look like gas guzzlers
Plug-in versions can go 100 miles on a gallon of gasoline
Sherry Boschert Sunday, March 4, 2007
Toyota Prius owners tend to be a proud lot since they drive the
fuel-efficient hybrid gas-electric car that's the darling of
mainstream environmentalists and one of the hottest-selling
vehicles in America. A few, however, felt that good was not good
enough. They've made "improvements" even though the modifications
voided parts of their warranties.
Ron Gremban of Corte Madera did it. So did Felix Kramer of
Redwood City, and Sven Thesen of Palo Alto. Why? Five words: one
hundred miles per gallon.
"We took the hybrid car to its logical conclusion," Kramer says,
by adding more batteries and the ability to recharge by plugging
into a regular electrical socket at night, making the car a
plug-in hybrid.
Compared with the Prius' fuel efficiency of 50 mpg, plug-in
hybrids use half as much gasoline by running more on cleaner,
cheaper, domestic electricity. If owners forget to plug in
overnight, it's no big deal -- the car runs like a regular
hybrid.
These trendsetters monkeyed with the car for more than their own
benefit. They did it to make a point: If they could make a
plug-in hybrid, the major car companies could, too. And should.
Kramer, Gremban and a cadre of volunteers formed the California
Cars Initiative (online at calcars.org), and in 2004 converted
Gremban's Prius to a plug-in hybrid in his garage. They added
inexpensive lead-acid batteries and some innovative software to
fool the car's computerized controls into using more of the
energy stored in the batteries, giving the car over 100 mpg in
local driving and 50 to 80 mpg on the highway. The cost of
conversion is about $5,000 for a do-it-yourselfer.
CalCars' efforts to publicize plug-in hybrids were so successful
that in January 2006 the Bush administration lifted a photo of
the car peeking out from Gremban's garage and featured it on the
White House Web site as a harbinger of good cars to come.
Do-it-yourselfers in Illinois and elsewhere converted their
hybrids to plug-ins. Several small companies like EnergyCS in
Southern California started doing small numbers of conversions
for fleets and government agencies using longer-lasting, more
energy-dense lithium-ion batteries.
Kramer hired EnergyCS to convert his Prius and reported on a
typical day of driving. He traveled 51 miles, mostly on the
highway, at fuel efficiencies of 124 mpg of gas and about a
penny's worth of electricity per mile. Compared with driving his
Prius before the conversion, he used 61 percent less gas and
spewed out two-thirds less greenhouse gases at a total cost of
$1.76 for electricity and gasoline, instead of the $3.17 it would
have required on gasoline alone.
Pacific Gas and Electric Co. acquired an EnergyCS plug-in Prius
conversion, too. It so impressed Thesen, a PG&E supervisor in the
clean air transportation group, that he offered his privately
owned Prius to CalCars as a guinea pig. Back in Gremban's garage,
CalCars and the Electric Auto Association converted it in
November to a plug-in with lead-acid batteries as part of a video
and educational package to guide do-it-yourselfers
(www.eaaphev.org).
Support for plug-in hybrids from a utility like PG&E, which still
produces 45 percent of its electricity from polluting fossil
fuels, makes some environmentalists nervous. The data on plug-in
hybrids, however, have calmed their fears. On the U.S. electrical
grid, which gets more than half of its power from dirty, nasty
coal, plug-in cars produce fewer overall emissions of greenhouse
gases and other pollutants than do other cars.
California's grid uses less coal, which makes plug-in cars even
cleaner. As more wind and solar power get added to the energy
mix, driving on electricity gets cleaner still. Driving on
gasoline will only get dirtier as conventional sources dry up and
we desperately turn to hard-to-extract oil that requires lots of
energy to get at, producing lots more pollution.
Enthusiasm over plug-in hybrids has created strange bedfellows.
Perched somewhat uneasily alongside PG&E and the former oil man
in the White House, Sierra Club leaders representing 13 chapters
in California and Nevada adopted a resounding endorsement of
plug-in hybrids in the past year.
Former Sierra Club President Larry Fahn has been looking for a
mechanic to convert his Prius for more than a year. Therein lies
the problem. People want plug-in hybrids but can't get them.
Dealers don't sell them yet, and the few conversion services
cater to fleets.
There are only a few dozen plug-in hybrids in the world, while
demand for them is growing rapidly. The city of Austin, Texas,
which uses more renewable power than any other U.S. city, started
a Plug-in Partners Campaign and gathered more than 8,000 advance
orders for plug-in hybrids. In the Bay Area, San Francisco,
Alameda, Berkeley and Marin County signed on as Plug-in
Partners.
Are the automakers listening? Maybe.
Several showed plug-in hybrid prototypes in the 1990s but cast
them aside during their battle to weaken California's
Zero-Emission Vehicle Mandate. Stung by bad publicity from the
2006 documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?", General Motors
reversed course and showed the prototype plug-in hybrid Chevrolet
Volt at a January auto show. In the past year, at least six major
car companies have said they're developing plug-in vehicles,
including Toyota officials, who seem none too happy about
amateurs messing with the Prius.
Plug-in hybrids won't hit the market, though, until better
batteries are developed, the automakers say. That doesn't sit
well with drivers like Marc Geller of San Francisco, who
co-founded the nonprofit group Plug In America
(www.pluginamerica.org). The nickel-metal hydride batteries in
Gellers' all-electric 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV give the compact SUV
plenty of power, take him all over the Bay Area, and are expected
to last the life of the car, based on utility company fleet
tests.
Consumers appear to have three options to hasten the arrival of
plug-in hybrids: Demand them ("Tell the automakers that you won't
buy a new car unless it has a plug on it," Geller says), or push
for government incentives or interventions. (The California Air
Resources Board is planning to revise the zero-emissions mandate
this year.)
Or, build your own plug-in hybrid.
Sherry Boschert is the author of "Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That
Will Recharge America" and a member of Plug In America. She will
speak about renewable energy and plug-in cars at a free public
event on Thursday at 7 p.m. at Sierra Club headquarters, 85
Second St., third floor, San Francisco.
Contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
© 2007 Hearst Communications Inc.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
REALLY?
This is something I might have to research. I mean hacking your A/C
unit here in Austin, Texas could have real benefits. Low humidity and
the cooling cost can be pretty darn high.
I could probably check the temp of the return line with misters on and
off to give an objective measurement of what it's actually doing. The
thermal mass of the coil itself is pretty low so it should really only
take seconds once it's turned on to see the new value. As long as the
temp of the house's air doesn't change in the meantime, the difference
is all from the misters.
I did check and could see that my A/C's condensor result line showed it
was only a trivial amount above ambient; the fluid was cooled about as
far as possible.
I wonder if they just don't do it for maintenance reasons? Not only do
misters clog with minerals after only a few days of use, but it could
lead to deposits on the condensor coils too which could be a serious
problem. Actually that does sound major. Droplets contain a bit of
calcium and other bits, but vapor does not. The nearby surface could
end up collecting it and calcifying the surface of the fins, which
ordinary cleaners probably can't remove.
Danny
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
(snip)
Another possibility is that an a/c u..nit will operate more
effectively- and more efficiently- the cooler the condensor coil is.
It's possible to swamp-cool the coil and boost the output of the
system. However, I suspect it's not all that great since home
central a/c units are always fighting to get more efficiency and more
BTUs yet I have not seen such a system being tried.
(snip)
Last summer, I rigged a couple of those porch / patio mister heads on
either side of my central AC unit, so that the mist was sucked into
the radiator.
Believe it or not, it worked TOO well. The AC was colder for a while,
then nothing. I checked the interior exchanger to find that it had
iced up. Had to turn it off and let it defrost.
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--- Begin Message ---
cool, car looks to be in amazing good shape!
Might be tough with all that extra weight, make sure
all those 40 year suspension and drivetrain parts can handle it.
Jack
Paul G. wrote:
After a successful search for just the right donor car I have my next EV
project, a 1966 Datsun 411 wagon. I had a preference for a early small
sedan, but its not often you get a chance to buy a 41 year old car with
only 92,000 miles on it. I'm hoping to hear your ideas on how to help it
meet my needs. I put up a quickie page with links to some photos of it at:
<http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/next.htm>.
My goal is to build a vehicle for my commute and local errands. My
commute is short, around 8 miles round trip with about 1/2 of it freeway
miles (and yes, I expect to keep up.)
What I have in mind is a small pack of AGMs and a suitable motor feeding
the stock 4 speed gearbox (its in great shape.) This old car is a bit
heavy, at around 2100 lb. It is also not the greatest on battery room.
The under hood area is about 24 inches by 24 inches and naturally not
all of it is available for batteries (mostly the master cylinder cuts
into it a little.) In the back, where the spare tire sits now with the
fuel tank underneath, I can create a space around 29 inches by 24 inches
and keep the stock load floor in place. Front and rear, depth is not an
issue. I'm targeting a pack voltage between 120 and 156 volts. Initially
I was thinking about using group 31 AGMs, but shape of the available
space hints that group 34 AGMs (such as the standard YT Optima or Exide
Orbital battery) may fit better. I'm open to ideas.
I want to get a new set of wheels and tires on it before I tear out the
ICE. Right now its running on 3 P165/80R13 tires (complete with cracking
side walls) and an old 5.60-13 bias-ply whitewall tire on the left front
corner (that made for some "interesting" handling on the freeway.) Wheel
selection is somewhat limited but the bolt pattern and required offset
is the same as a Geo Metro (4 lug on a 4.5 inch pattern, about +38
offset.) My options are either 13 inch with the same P-metric tire size
or 14 inch with either P175/70R14 or P185/65R15. Anything larger than
that could present some rear tire fit issues (the rear fender wells are
designed to maximize the back seat.) Ideas here to minimize wheel weight
and tire rolling resistance are welcome (but >$200 each Panasport wheels
are a bit rich for me.)
Enough of me talking. Please check it out and give me your ideas!
Paul "neon" G.
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--- Begin Message ---
I can say for a fact that MAXX-29 is a phenomenally crappy battery. Had
one with a cell short out (specific gravity in one cell went way, way
off) right away. The others were shot in my camper van in a pretty
so-so period of time.
On the other hand Wal-Mart's return policy is fairly liberal. Well,
once they put this funky meter on them that supposedly tested it, but it
was too small- an enclosed handheld meter- to have done any sort of load
test because that takes several minutes of hundreds of watts. The meter
said the batt was fine although loading it with 5 amps would drop it to
10.5v in only a few minutes. The meter said it was fine, although this
is absurd! I later drained the electrolyte entirely and brought it back
to another store. That damn meter STILL said it was fine! I then said
the problem was that "it leaked acid" and they said ok just grab another
one.
Not only does Wal-Mart NOT prorate the battery, they give a new warranty
with the replacement. Bring an 18 mo batt back at 17 mo and they'll
give you a new batt free. Bring that one back in 17 mo and get another
one free. I can play this game for years! I think you'll get noticed
if you try to bring backa dozen of them year after year, or probably
every few months if these wimpy batts are put into EV service.
Danny
Steve Powers wrote:
Option #2 -
8 x 12 V set of deep cycle, trolling, starting marine batteries. This is what
I bought one of to test. I'm talking about the MAXX-29 from Walmart made by
Johnson Controls. It has an 18 month warranty and is $65 / ea. With tax,
that's $556. But, they won't fit in the car unless I do some serious mods to
the battery boxes (which were made for 15 golf cart or Group 24 size).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK I might have exaggerated there.
It's moderately good in simple deep cycle service.
It's probably going to be phenomenally crappy in EV service.
Danny
Danny Miller wrote:
I can say for a fact that MAXX-29 is a phenomenally crappy battery.
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--- Begin Message ---
On my boards, I usually use the on-chip watchdog to try resetting the
processor, and a lot of EMI/RFI capacitors on all of the signal lines, and
always use a 4-layer board now, with a good solid ground plane. That solved
all of my software crash issues. By the way, this is on engine controllers
for CNG ICE's. Usually on one signal (the main power relay), I use a
74HC123A multivibrator. So long as the processor is running, the
multivibrator gets reset and the output stays active. If the processor
quits, the output goes inactive and although the injector drivers might be
going crazy, the power feed to them stops. Once I designed an NiCd EV
battery charger (a long time ago - 20A, up to 250V) without such features,
and it blew up very convincingly. I used the IR2110 FET driver, and it loved
to blow up.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention, my repaired E-meter seems to output a slightly
different data string than it used to. It used to look like this:
21224,-00.69,+003.1,172.0,-0005.0,-0008.3,+0004.9,255.0,5
Now it looks like this:
33050,-00.44,+004.4,182.5,-0001.0,-0001.4,+0005.7,255.0,E,21
It used to be Seconds, Kilowatt-Hours, Amps, Volts, AmpHours,
PeukertAmpHours, PeukertAmps, Time Remaining, and the number of Bars
Lit. Now the Bars Lit field on my data shows 5,6, D,E, and F. The
added field contains the numbers 8 though 21. I checked the Xantrex
website and could find no documentation on this. Can any tell me
what I am seeing?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been data logging my charge/discharge cycles using
> the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop.
...
> My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
Flexible? Yes. But not on a P75. But in terms of flexibility
you could do a lot of data manipulation with LabView. It's
a real resource pig, but for what you're trying to do you could
have a really slick app running in no time. All programming
is done via GUI, just connect the dots and it can do just
about anything you can think of. It is my future intent to put a
mobile PC in the EV running LabView to do just what you describe,
and more, since it can also do data acquisition, crunch data and
discrete analog/digital I/O. They have an FPGA based I/O card
that is fast enough to do real time motor control if you want
to take it that far.
http://www.ni.com
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joseph,
Do you know how much internal resistance your pack has?
It is usually in the manufacturer specs of the batteries,
(though I could not find it on Trojan's website)
but you need to add the resistance of your cabling.
Then, with the current you draw under load, you can
calculate how much each battery will be drawn down on
average.
The critical thing is the word *average*:
I found that most packs are not perfectly balanced, so
from the total pack voltage it is hard to see how each battery
is doing.
So, it is very easy to have all but one battery at 11V and
one battery at 6V, while this will read 105V for 10x 12V batteries
and you'd think the average of 10.5V is good, but you have
already started reversing the one low battery.
That is why I have started building a battery monitoring and
regulating system, so I can better see when the first battery
goes to 10.5V, not when the average is there.
I agree with Peter that it would be good to keep your voltage closer to
100V, though theoretically it may be perfectly fine to draw it down to 90V
or thereabouts if the pack resistance and current cause another 15V drop and
all batteries are well balanced.
Note that during discharge, batteries change internal resistance, so that is
complicating things a little more,
but staying with the voltage limits will only protect your batteries better
when the resistance increases.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joseph H. Strubhar
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 6:36 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this
one done before
Cor, I occasionally draw my 120V pack of Trojan T-105's down to 86 Volts
under load, but usually it only goes to 94 or so. Is this too low for
floodeds?
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this
one done before
> Note that Peter is talking about the voltage while driving, under load.
> As soon as the load is gone, the pack must come back quickly and reach at
> least 96V after a while, as at 12V resting voltage, the batteries are
empty.
> Normally they will sit above 12.3V (2.05V per cell) and freshly charged
AGM
> batteries can sit as high as 13.2V (2.2V per cell)
>
> 105V for 48 cells is 2.19V per cell, or 13.1V for a 12V battery - sounds
> good. 100V is still 12.5V per battery and certainly not dead, absolutely
not
> dead if you use this threshold under load - you can go as low as about 80
to
> 85V under (heavy) load, to keep the cells above 1.75V which is the limit
> that they are tested at for capacity.
>
> 1.75V x 48 cells = 84V.
> (Some manufacturers set a different, lower voltage limit under high
> discharge voltage, arguing that the resistance in the battery
interconnects
> and plates adds to the voltage drop.
> For example if you have a decent battery it may have 4mOhm (0.004 Ohm)
> internal resistance.
> When you draw 300A through this pack, the internal resistance of 8
batteries
> in series will make the pack voltage drop 8x 300A x 4mOhm = 8x 1200mV = 8x
> 1.2V = 9.6V.
> So, the minimum pack voltage under 300A load while keeping 1.75V per cell
as
> lowest limit is 84 - 9.6V = 74.4V
> so you see that the absolute lowest level of 75V that Peter suggested has
> some background in keeping the pack safe while driving, while it allows
you
> to make the most of your range. Note that it is only allowed to go this
low
> while driving. As soon as you take your foot off the throttle, it must
bouce
> back to above 90V (11.5V per battery) or it is already dead and you have
> begun to reverse cells in the pack.
> If this happens once on accident during the last mile to get home, no
> problem, simply put the pack immediately on a charge and it likely will
be
> fine.
> Doing this repeatedly will certainly damage your pack and reduce your
range
> quickly - this is the way "stinkers" are created!
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 9:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen
this
> one done before
>
> Huh? No wonder you are getting so little range. You can safely drive a
96V
> pack until it drops to 84V. If you only drive until it drops to 100V then
> you are barely taking the surface charge off the pack.
>
> When the pack gets to the end of it's life you can drive a 96V pack down
to
> 75-80V. It's pretty much shot anyway, so you can't hurt it.
> But this doesn't apply to your pack, apparently you haven't even stressed
it
> yet. It should have plenty of life left.
>
> > So, I have the Festiva, and I'm driving it on the 96 V pack of 12 V
> > Deka Group 24's that are way past their usable life. Even with the
> > Curtis controller, easier on the batts than the GE EV-1, I'm getting
> > only about
> > 4.5 mile range. I was getting about 3.25 with the EV-1. Those batts
> > are 80 AH at a 20 A discharge rate. Derate about 50% for EV discharge
> > rate and not killing them, that's 40 AH. Voltage varies between 105
> > (full) and
> > 98 (totally dead). I try not to go below 100 V. So, about 4kW-hr of
> > usable energy. The car is 2200 lb. I'd say 300 Wh-hr / mile. So,
> > with a brand new pack on a bright sunny day here in GA, I should be
> > able to safely go 13 miles. Really, that is pretty lame for a pack
> > that must cost about $1200. In flooded, the pack is about $550.
> > Flooded has its own issues. Like parking on a slight grade and trying
> > to charge the batts when the plates aren't evenly covered ... My
> > flooded batts are actually set in at a very slight angle to match the
> > grade of the driveway. I literally used a level to put them in the car.
> >
> > So, I could spend $1200 on a fresh set of the Deka Group 24, and
> > some day, it may come to that if no one comes up with a decent battery
> > solution.
> >
> > For now, I bought one (soon to get a second) 12 V / 120 Ah (at 20 A
> > discharge) battery for $65. I also bought a 700 Watt inverter off
> > ebay for a buck. I put the batts in my car, run the inverter, through
> > my BC-20 and try as best as I can to keep the pack charged.
> >
> > I drive that whole 2 miles to work. Let it sit and recharge itself
> > off the spare batts, go out for lunch, let it charge itself, back to
> > work, more self charging off the aux batt, and back home. I should be
> > able to get 8.5 miles (as long as I don't go more than 4 miles in any
> > given 2 hour period). That is OK, because when I go somewhere, I am
> > usually there for a few hours. It's like driving with a 4 mile range
> > and plugging in all the time, every time you stop. Not a great
> > solution, but it cost only $150 and I got a 8.5 mile range (I think)
> > and I didn't have to drop $1200 on a new set of Dekas yet. It may
> > last 6 months or a year like this. Maybe only a few weeks. Either
> > way, it was worth a try.
> >
> > This got me into other stuff. I am working on replacing my lead
> > acid secondary pack with NiMH. Again, limit the discharge rate. I
> > could put in a 3300 Watt inverter if I wanted to ... But, not use
> > them as the primary motive force. A friend lent me some 13 Ah F cells
> > (40 of them) to play with. I was going to try 4 sets of 10 each of
> > those in parallel with my one lead acid 120 AH aux battery. That
> > would be 12 V / 172 Ah (at a 20 A discharge rate).
> >
> > I also have 850 1.2 V / 1.6 AH NiMH cells that I picked up 2 years
> > ago when I started the last Festiva project. I could maybe do
> > something with those as well.
> >
> > I looked at prices, and it seems like I can get flooded lead (not
> > Trojan
> > though) for $0.045 per Watt-hr. Again, that is low discharge rate,
> > not Optimas or anything EV worthy. I can get NiMH for about $0.31 per
> > Watt-hr. I don't even dare price Li Ion, but my best bet would be
> > DeWalt packs off E-bay. I'm not comfortable making a BMS for those,
> > so I'll stick with NiMH. I believe you can get one of those 36 V
> > LiIon packs for about $100 on e-bay. Again, the BMS is the issue.
> >
> > Where am I going with all this? Maybe a good solution is like what
> > I have -
> >
> > 8 x 12 V AGM +
> > a 5000 Watt-Hr aux pack of NiMH (or Li Ion) and a 3300 Watt inverter.
> >
> > I think you could get an easy real 30 mile range and some decent
> > performance. I am not a fan of flooded lead golf cart batts at all.
> > Why? Years of cars with poor acceleration. It wasn't until I got the
> > super light car and the AGMs that I got acceptable (to me that is)
> > performance.
> >
> > With my soultion, you can also add an alternator on the tail shaft
> > of the motor (geared appropriately for charging at very slow motor
> > RPM) and kick it on when the start switch is off to charge the aux
> > batt that goes through the inverter / charger ... and back to the
> > pack. Efficiency of that whole system maybe 65% (with the alternator
> > and all) Worth it? I don't know.
> >
> > I'm open to comments, suggestions?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected
> > to friends.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk
> at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
> with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.5/707 - Release Date: 3/1/2007
2:43 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Danny Miller
> This is something I might have to research. I mean hacking your A/C
> unit here in Austin, Texas could have real benefits. Low humidity and
> the cooling cost can be pretty darn high.
Some, and perhaps all of the recent high-efficiency home air conditioners use
the condensate water to cool the radiator side. At least a couple I've seen the
insides of do.
Likewise, many (or all) the high efficiency home refrigerators use the
condensed water as an evaporative coolant for the compressor or radiator.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
>> I have been data logging my charge/discharge cycles using
>> the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop.
>> My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
From: Mark Brueggemann
>Flexible? Yes. But not on a P75.
Oh, for Pete's sake... my E-meter data logger BASIC program started life on a
Radio Shack model 100 laptop, which ran at the blazing speed of 2 MHz (not GHz)
and had all of 32k bytes (not megabytes) of memory. I *had* to have the program
compress the data, because there was no place to store it.
The program is so short (under 7K bytes) that I can post it here, without
danger of an excessively large email message. Note that it still has line
numbers from the "old days", but runs with Microsoft QuickBASIC. Watch out for
the long lines; be sure your email program doesn't break them up!
--
10 REM Cruising Equipment E-Meter Serial Data Logger
20 REM by Lee A. Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5/4/2005
30 REM
35 REM For use with 12v battery and 50amp 50mv shunt.
36 REM
40 REM Initialization. Averages data over 2 sec if test
45 REM duration = 4 minutes, 24 sec if duration = 10 hours, etc.
46 REM
47 ahmax = 4: ahstep = -2: ahmin = ahmax + (10 * ahstep): REM set min/max ah
48 vmin = 10: vstep = .6: vmax = vmin + (10 * vstep): REM set min/max volts
49 amin = 0: astep = 3: amax = amin + (10 * astep): REM set min/max amps
50 CLS
55 cflag = 0: REM cflag=1 if charging to 14.4v, =0 if discharging to 10.5v
60 INPUT "Test Description? ", comment$
70 PRINT : INPUT "Test Duration in hours? ", duration
80 duration = duration * 3600: IF duration < 240 THEN duration = 240
90 average% = 5: REM average samples to improve resolution
100 REM
110 REM If outputting to disk, open file. Data is comma delimited.
120 REM Line 1 is column headings, date, and comment$ string.
130 REM Lines 2-58 are time, averaged volts, amphours, averaged amps.
140 PRINT
145 ON ERROR GOTO 175
150 FILES "*.DAT"
155 INPUT "Output to disk [ENTER for no, or C:\PATH\FILENAME.DAT for yes]? ",
filename$
160 IF LEN(filename$) = 0 GOTO 230
170 OPEN filename$ FOR INPUT AS #2
172 INPUT "That file already exists. Append data to it [y/n]? ", a$
174 CLOSE #2: IF a$ = "y" OR a$ = "Y" THEN OPEN filename$ FOR APPEND AS #2:
GOTO 180 ELSE GOTO 150
175 OPEN filename$ FOR OUTPUT AS #2
180 PRINT #2, ";Time,Volts,AmpHrs,Amps, "; DATE$; ", "; comment$
190 REM
200 REM If printing, initialize printer for 88 lines per page (8 lpi).
210 REM (If Epson FX-80 or equiv; ESC"0"=8 lpi).
220 REM
230 PRINT : INPUT "Output to printer [ENTER for no, y for yes]? ", print$
235 IF print$ = "Y" THEN print$ = "y"
240 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT CHR$(27); "0"; DATE$; " "; filename$; " ";
comment$: LPRINT
250 REM
260 REM Display (and optionally print) graph headings.
270 CLS
275 LOCATE 25, 40: PRINT "Test in progress: Press any key to abort": LOCATE 1, 1
280 PRINT DATE$; " "; filename$; " "; comment$
290 GOSUB 1230
300 COLOR 7, 1: PRINT volt$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT volt$
310 GOSUB 1330
320 PRINT amphr$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT amphr$
330 GOSUB 1430
340 PRINT amp$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT amp$
350 REM
360 REM Set up serial port to read E-meter data.
370 REM
380 OPEN "COM2: 9600,n,8,1" FOR INPUT AS #1: LINE INPUT #1, dummy$
390 REM
400 REM Main loop. Get data from E-meter.
410 REM
420 FOR i = 0 TO duration * .95
430 INPUT #1, time, kwhr, amp, volt, ahr, pahrs, pamps, timerem, bargraph
440 REM
450 REM Compute running averages for volts and amps, or use last value
460 REM for fast changes. Write fast changes to disk if it is enabled.
470 REM
475 amp = amp / 10: ahr = ahr / 10: REM for use with 50amp 50mv shunt
480 wflag = 0
490 IF ABS((volt - volts) / volt) > .1 THEN volts = volt: wflag = 1 ELSE volts
= (volts * (average% - 1) + volt) / average%
500 IF ABS(amp - amps) > .5 THEN amps = amp: wflag = 1 ELSE amps = (amps *
(average% - 1) + amp) / average%
510 amps = FIX(amps * 1000) / 1000
520 IF ABS(ahrs - ahr) > .2 THEN wflag = 1
525 ahrs = ahr
530 REM
540 REM Display current data, and "beep" if it is off the graph.
545 REM Write data to disk if voltage hits upper/lower limits.
550 REM
560 a$ = LEFT$(TIME$, 5) + " v h a | . . . . .
. . . . |"
570 MID$(a$, 12 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(volts + .005), 6))) = LEFT$(STR$(volts +
.005), 6)
580 MID$(a$, 19 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5))) = LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5)
590 MID$(a$, 27 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6))) = LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6)
600 LOCATE CSRLIN, 1: COLOR 7, 1: PRINT LEFT$(a$, 27);
610 IF volt < vmin OR volt > vmax OR ABS(amp) > amax OR ahrs < ahmin OR ahrs >
ahmax THEN PRINT CHR$(7);
614 IF cflag = 0 AND volt < (vmin + vstep) THEN cflag = 1: wflag = 1
616 IF cflag = 1 AND volt > (vmax - vstep) THEN cflag = 0: wflag = 1
618 IF wflag = 1 AND LEN(filename$) > 0 THEN GOSUB 1140
620 IF LEN(INKEY$) > 0 THEN i = duration
622 REM
624 REM Print and/or save data to disk if 1/80th of duration and they
626 REM are enabled. Display data if 1/20th of duration.
628 REM
630 IF i MOD (duration / 80) > 0 GOTO 860
640 REM
650 REM Initialize a line of graphical data to display or print.
660 REM 29th char in a$ is left limit, 79th is right limit.
670 REM
680 REM Put "h" on graph to represent amphours.
690 REM
700 hpos = 29 + (ahmax - ahrs) * (79 - 29) / (ahmax - ahmin)
710 IF ahrs <= ahmax AND ahrs >= ahmin THEN MID$(a$, hpos, 1) = "h"
720 REM
730 REM Put "v" on graph to represent volts.
740 REM
750 vpos = 29 + (volts - vmin) * (79 - 29) / (vmax - vmin)
760 IF volts >= vmin AND volts <= vmax THEN MID$(a$, vpos, 1) = "v"
770 REM
780 REM Put "a" on graph to represent amps (unsigned).
790 REM
800 apos = 29 + (ABS(amps) - amin) * (79 - 29) / (amax - amin)
810 IF ABS(amps) <= amax THEN MID$(a$, apos, 1) = "a"
820 IF i MOD (duration / 20) = 0 THEN COLOR 7, 0: PRINT RIGHT$(a$, 52); :
LOCATE CSRLIN + 1, 1
830 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT a$
840 IF wflag = 0 AND LEN(filename$) > 0 THEN GOSUB 1140
860 NEXT i
870 REM Finish; close files, restore printer to 80 char/line, 66 lines.
880 REM (If Epson FX-80 or equiv; ESC"P"=10 cpi, ESC"2"=6 lpi, 12=FF).
890 REM
900 CLOSE #1: CLOSE #2
920 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT CHR$(27); "2"; CHR$(12)
999 END
1100 REM
1110 REM Write data to disk file every 1/80th of test duration, or
1120 REM if there is a fast change in volts, amps, or amphours.
1130 REM
1140 PRINT #2, TIME$; ",";
1150 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(volts + .005), 6); ",";
1160 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5); ",";
1170 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6): RETURN
1200 REM
1210 REM Make title line to display/print max and min voltage limits
1220 REM
1230 volt$ = " Volts ------------->
"
1240 FOR i = 0 TO 10
1250 MID$(volt$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(vmin + (vstep * i)))) = STR$(vmin +
(vstep * i))
1260 NEXT
1270 RETURN
1300 REM
1310 REM Make title line to display/print max and min amphour limits
1320 REM
1330 amphr$ = " | AmpHrs ---->
"
1340 FOR i = 0 TO 10
1350 MID$(amphr$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(ahmax + (ahstep * i)))) = STR$(ahmax +
(ahstep * i))
1360 NEXT
1370 RETURN
1400 REM
1410 REM Make title line to display/print max and min current limits
1420 REM
1430 amp$ =
"_Time___v_______v_____Amps_____________________________________________________"
1440 FOR i = 0 TO 10
1450 MID$(amp$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(amin + (astep * i)))) = STR$(amin +
(astep * i))
1460 NEXT
1470 RETURN
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well. perhaps my thoughts on my z car may have merit here.
hey, 2100lbs is not bad! My z weighed 3100 before conversion.
If you put the motor up front you won't have any room for batteries and
you will have to shift. If your batteries end up behind the rear wheel,
it would be a problem. This kindof forces you to put 1 row across in
front, in place of the radiator, and another row just behind the back
seat. Probably that wouldn't be so bad if not floodies.
8 miles each way 3000lb finish weight I am guessing about 300wh/mile to
start with. (mine weights 4050 and I get 431wh/mile)
Some batteries,lead, loose capacity with age, so, unless you want to
throw away the pack when it's capacity drops just a little, you need
some spare capacity.
lets pick 24miles @300wh/mile thats 7.2kwh. Divide by .8 for safe
discharge levels and we are talking 9kw. At the 1hr rate(34ah???) that
is 22 orbitals. 11 buddy pairs gets you 132V pack.
Perhaps a little less conventional conversion thinking is in order. what
if the spare tire area was used from the bottom instead. a pair of 8"
motors side by side and a series parallel shifting instead of a
mechanical one is somehow dropped into the existing differential (I know
that thing is rear wheel drive, if independent, the differential doesn't
move so this would be doable.maybe a 510sedan rear end upgrade?). The
entire under hood area gets turned into a battery box.
Still not gonna get 22 up there, but it helps to keep weight balance as
close to stock as possible.
just some thoughts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike, all
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Jim,
> Didn't want to highjack your "Motor Mod" thread so I
> created this one for "Race Preps".
Well that was James Massey's thread, you can steal all
of his you want 8^P
> Two things, I wanna have two WarP9's
> droped by your shop for banding and a little extra
> love before I throw them into the Pinto. Any chance
> you would post a price on
> what an EV racer could expect to pay you for "Race
> Prep Package", on a new 9" motor of course :-)
First off sounds good, I'm sure we'll chat more here
soon. I would have to say that this reminds me a
little of a dream I had last night... Where I was on
stage, in the spotlight, naked, (and for some reason
I'm holding a chicken), and the whole list was there,
LMAO!
I bet ol' Shawn Lawless is probably reading this right
now screaming at his monitor, "YEAH what's it gonna
cost me JIM"! Shawn Waggener is screaming at his don't
you answer that JIM I'll get twice that much off Ebay,
hehehe!!!
All kidding a side it's something that is tough to
quote out. Not one of the 40 odd EV motors I've done
have been the same. Another factor that comes into
play is I'm amending things as I go. After seeing the
CE plates I did for Killacycle, Wayland started
sniveling that he woundn't mind having that done to
his motors. By the time I've done something enough to
get it down, I've seen a better way to do it, like
Waylands brush rigging vs. Dube's I just did. Lets
just say I'm perfecting my technique faster than I can
"mass produce" for lack of a better term or "list
prices".
I will say Mr. Lawless will get a better motor now
than if Mr. Dube hadn't of cut in line, lol.
Another example is Bills CE plate. Putting those
solid leads into a 6" plate is a bummer,lol. There's
just no room, but doing a 9" would be different. Heck
I could build you a small motor shop inside a 9"
motor, lol. I guess I'm saying you might not want me
to quote out a solid lead yet being I've yet to do a
9" version, LMAO! Doing a 9 would be a lot easier,
but I haven't done one yet, although I'll be starting
4 of them here real soon before someone sends his
goons to come break my legs and chain me to my bench
8^o
I will say upfront that a Dutchman shaft isn't cheap
but Wayland's inability to break his yet says a lot
8^)
> The second thing I wanted to ask about was coupling
> two WarP9's together. I don't see that Warfield (or
> Netgain) is producing a
> motor with the same size CE shaft as on the DE. I'm
> leary about coupling them in series (mechanically)
> because of the smaller
> input shaft on the "wheel dog" (dog sledding term
> for the dog in the back of the lineup). So in light
> of that I'm looking into
> some of the parallel setups like Otmar's and I sure
> would like to see inside John Bisby's parallel unit
> down in Perth. Do you
> know of anyone else with a dual set up to a drive
> shaft that would be worth building?
>
> Mike,
Matt Graham cracked his Warp 9 shafts, but it's the
rear output shaft that goes when connecting motors
inline. Waylands motor was the same way. It wasn't
the small coupled end but that final drive that has
issues.
Keith at Dutchmans and I go around on this a lot. He
always wants to put in a bigger shaft diameter but I'm
always telling him that's all I can fit in, lmao!
I've been wanting to work on a race mod'ed Warp motor.
Although Richard Rau sent me work over his new Warp9
he went more for the Blue Meanie show and shine than
something more White Zombie needs.
Anyway I wanted to throw up a public reply to this
because I get asked this kind of thing a lot. I'm
probably more open than I should be in the fact that
I'm a small shop of 3 (me, myself, and I, lol). When
my son Matt quit on me last year it really did put a
damper on my game plan concerning my ability to focus
on the EV side of things so to speak. My Uncle's been
helping me out on the lift side of things and that's
gonna start freeing me up to do what I really want to
do, which is this stuff 8^)
I guess I'm saying that although I've been blessed to
have worked on some real high profile EV's, White
Zombie, Gone Postal, Killacycle it kind of makes me
feel smaller than my britches, lol. Not in my ability
in building motors but more towards mass producing
them or even trying to talk a job in without sounding
like a moron, LMAO!
Getting back to your in-line question, I really lean
toward the in-line motor setup. There's really not a
lot of proof yet but as I posted before I'd be willing
to bet Silver Bullet would do better with a Siamese 7
than with it's current 3 belted motors. I believe
more inline twins would be used if the shaft issue
wasn't there. Comparing Waylands twin motor to Otmars
twin set up shows just how many ways there is to skin
a cat. We'd have to get Otmar to pop in 60 little
Hawkers to do a proper test though 8^o
I'll end this little novel with this. I've been
toying with a lot of ideas. Stuff like ajustable
brush ring kits where you can buy it and fit it in
yourself, or have a local shop machine it for you.
Stuff like a more automotive shaft that could be
reworked by just sending in the armature.
I'd like to offer more than just my personal services.
Having them CNC'd would be a lot smarter than me hand
crafting them one by one, lol. Of course I'd love to
get some data on one of the ABR's I've done. Right
now all I can advertize is it's garranteed to sit in
Waylands garage for 2 freaking years, LMAO!!!
Hey Mike! you intrested in throwing a slightly
scratched two year old 13" Yellow Beast Allis Chalmers
motor into that Pinto, hehehe!
Bottom line to all this is I'm just like all of you
guys doing what I can and trying to make a living at
it. To date I doubt anyone would regret trusting me
with thier project. I look forward to hopefully
working with you here when you're ready. Time wise I
really have to focus on Lawless' motor or like I said
he'll brake my legs. I like my legs. ROF
Had fun and yes I know I'm insane. Then again look at
the company I keep, hehe!
> p.s. got a kid here with a '71 Super Beetle that
> would like to know if you have any surplus motors
> you could sell. No extra love
> needed, maybe just like a first date or somthing ;-)
I just ran into a nice source for cheap but nice 7"
cores. The problem is they are pump motors as far as
a direct here you go motor for these guys. I've been
using the L91 shaft as a nice retro fit and machine
the CE shaft to fit a particular motor. I'll give you
a write later to discuss options that could get them
up and running. My dinner is going cold so I'm out of
here.
Sorry for the novel
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
