EV Digest 6807
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) 914 Porsche Space
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 914 Porsche Space
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Building a Variable Voltage, High Current Batt Charger
by Rod Dilkes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by "midiguy732" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Triangle wave generator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New address
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: How regen works
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: How regen works
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Best paint for Battery racks
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Best paint for Battery racks
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by "midiguy732" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Best paint for Battery racks
by "midiguy732" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: How regen works
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Best Conversion Vehicle
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.nonslipcoating.com/productinfo.htm
" Waterproof, Resistant to acid, chemicals, UV
exposure, salt water ", an excerpt from this one
particular brand of DIY bedliner material.
--- midiguy732 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Spray in/on bedliners typically are resin polymers
> with some filler, the
> filler being for texture to help the prevent the
> load from sliding, as
> well as providing a non-slip surface to some degree.
> The best kind in
> my opinion are the ones that the filler is most
> shreaded tire particles
> - it provides enough flex that it's very difficult
> to chip off.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > Behalf Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:43 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Best paint for Battery racks
> >
> >
> > I'm sure this was a good expedient solution. But,
> do you actually know
> > what that bedliner material is? Sulfuric battery
> acid can be very hard
> > on materials. It might be worth contacting the
> manufacturer to find
> out
> > if it really will withstand battery acid for any
> length of time.
>
>
Michael Barkley
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you mean, there's no space? I put 14 Ni-Cads in mine, 10 underneath
the rear trunk in two lengths, 5 on each rail, flush with the belly pan
(about 6" off the road) in erector set angle from Lowe's 1 & 1/2" perforated
3/8" holes. So the rear trunk is completely open. The front has the 4
batteries where the gas tank was so I have a front trunk too. It's got much
more room than my Electro-Metro or E-Jeep for storage. Just don't dunp all
the electronics & batteries in the trunks and there's plenty of trunk space.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:24:36 -0700
Subject: Re: 15k DIY Porsche. 20k Installed.
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mime-Version: 1.0
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I used to own a 914 and they are great fun however there is one serious
consideration to think about with them.
Remember unless the goal is a science experiment you probably want a
USEABLE electric car in the end. That means some storage space and maybe
more than two seats.
Alfter all is said and done you want a car that is functional. The only
saving grace for a gas powered 914 which has NO back or space at all
behind the front seats is the front and rear trunk (because the engine
is right behind the seats so you have both a big front and back trunk)
but when you add batteries in those trunks you no longer have that
space.
If you want an electric go cart for fun then a 914 is a great electric
car.
If you want a functional car that you can even put a few grocery bags in
then an electric 914 is useless.
It will have NO storage space. And only one other seat.
It will seriously have NO Storage space. People really don't understand
it until they use one for a while. There are NO nooks and crannies
behind the seat - just a sheer firewall.
Something to keep in mind.
You would hate to spend all the time and money to make an electric only
to realize you don't have a very day to day functional vehicle when you
are finished.
You won't save gas or the environement if it is a car you really won't
drive.
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:05 am, Michael Wendell wrote:
I was just looking at the www.electroautomotive.com site
that link is http://www.electroauto.com
...and their AC kit is around 15k with batteries. After all
the talk of what's available I'm begining to think that is a
bargain. If you are a miser it will go 150 miles on the flat.
i'm a lurker, still in the dreaming stage with this, but i didn't realize
their kits had that kind of range. i'm hoping to have the time to seriously
begin tinkering this fall.
the 914 seems to be a somewhat popular conversion, and electro's kit may
have something to do with that.
while i like the 914, i've been wondering if the boxster might be a better,
more modern equivalent. what does the list think, too heavy? i've seen beat
up boxsters selling for reasonable prices on ebay, and i'd imagine that
parting out the ICE equipment would yield a nice payback.
thanks, i'll go back to lurking.
m.
Michael Wendell
Web/Graphics Guy
Speedgoat Bicycles
724.238.7181
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? Youll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't herculiner be just as easy to apply? It is available at any
auto parts store.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Barkley
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:27
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Best paint for Battery racks
http://www.nonslipcoating.com/productinfo.htm
" Waterproof, Resistant to acid, chemicals, UV exposure, salt water ",
an excerpt from this one particular brand of DIY bedliner material.
--- midiguy732 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Spray in/on bedliners typically are resin polymers with some filler,
> the filler being for texture to help the prevent the load from
> sliding, as well as providing a non-slip surface to some degree.
> The best kind in
> my opinion are the ones that the filler is most shreaded tire
> particles
> - it provides enough flex that it's very difficult to chip off.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > Behalf Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:43 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Best paint for Battery racks
> >
> >
> > I'm sure this was a good expedient solution. But,
> do you actually know
> > what that bedliner material is? Sulfuric battery
> acid can be very hard
> > on materials. It might be worth contacting the
> manufacturer to find
> out
> > if it really will withstand battery acid for any
> length of time.
>
>
Michael Barkley
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, :Lee. In your original post, I thought that the freewheel diode
you mentioned was in addition to the normal boost converter diode, like
across the armature or across the field. But what you drew here is what
I pictured from your initial description. Thanks for the confirmation.
Bill Dennis
Lee Hart wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
Interesting concept, Lee. You mention a freewheel diode. Is a
freewheel still necessary in this setup? If I'm understanding your
description correctly, the field winding will be sending its current
either through the armature winding, or through the MOSFET to ground,
and the armatue will always be getting its current from either the
battery (through the field winding) or from the capacitors. If a
freewheel diode is necessary, then why, and where does it go?
This type of boost controller uses exactly the same parts as a buck
controller; one switch, one diode, one capacitor, and one inductor.
The boost version is arranged like this (view with a fixed width font):
_ _ _
battery+____| | | |________|\|____________
motor | |/| | |
field | diode | _|_
| _|_ / \ motor
switch / capacitor ___ \___/ armature
| | |
battery-______________|____________|______|
The "switch" can be an SCR, transistor, MOSFET, IGBT, etc. The diode
is still necessary; it acts as a freewheel diode for the field
inductance, so current can flow continuously in it whether the switch
is on or off.
Note that this type of controller has an advantage over a conventional
buck converter; if the transistors fail on (their normal failure
mode), it STOPS the motor and shorts the input power source (and
hopefully blows a fuse).
But, it has the drawback that the motor voltage can't be less than the
pack voltage, i.e. you need a contactor (not shown) to turn the motor
completely off.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
Buck-boost motor controller
battery+_________/ __________|/|____________
| switch | |\| | |
_|_ ( diode | _|_ -
capacitor ___ motor ( _|_ / \ motor
| field ( capacitor ___ \___/ armature
| | | | +
battery-___|____________|____________|______|
Yes; that's yet another of the basic circuits. It is quite useful for
lower-power applications. Characteristics:
- Output voltage can be higher or lower than input voltage.
- The output polarity is *opposite* of the input polarity.
(see + and - signs I added to the armature voltage).
- Switch failures don't turn the motor on.
- It requires bigger parts for a given amount of power. For example,
at +100v and 100a input, -100v and 100a output, the diode and
transistor see 200v and 200a.
- Input and output current both pulsate, so you need big capacitors
at *both* the input and output.
There are *lots* of these basic converter circuits. Here is one that was
only recently discovered, called the Cuk' ("chewk") converter that I
think is quite promising:
capacitor
____________||____________
| || |
battery+____|____/ ___________|/|______|
switch | |\| |
_| diode _|_ -
motor |_ / \ motor
field |_ \___/ armature
|_ | +
battery-_________________|_____________|
Its characteristics are a lot like the buck-boost converter, except that
with the proper choice of parts, the input and output ripple current are
ZERO! Even though the semiconductors need higher ratings and so cost
more, the capacitor is drastically smaller.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hell I didn't have that much space in mine even when there were no
batteries in it.
You can't have that much space.
:-)
On Wed, 23 May 2007 5:56 am, Mark Hanson wrote:
What do you mean, there's no space? I put 14 Ni-Cads in mine, 10
underneath the rear trunk in two lengths, 5 on each rail, flush with
the belly pan (about 6" off the road) in erector set angle from Lowe's
1 & 1/2" perforated 3/8" holes. So the rear trunk is completely open.
The front has the 4 batteries where the gas tank was so I have a front
trunk too. It's got much more room than my Electro-Metro or E-Jeep for
storage. Just don't dunp all the electronics & batteries in the trunks
and there's plenty of trunk space.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 11:24:36 -0700
Subject: Re: 15k DIY Porsche. 20k Installed.
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mime-Version: 1.0
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I used to own a 914 and they are great fun however there is one serious
consideration to think about with them.
Remember unless the goal is a science experiment you probably want a
USEABLE electric car in the end. That means some storage space and
maybe
more than two seats.
Alfter all is said and done you want a car that is functional. The only
saving grace for a gas powered 914 which has NO back or space at all
behind the front seats is the front and rear trunk (because the engine
is right behind the seats so you have both a big front and back trunk)
but when you add batteries in those trunks you no longer have that
space.
If you want an electric go cart for fun then a 914 is a great electric
car.
If you want a functional car that you can even put a few grocery bags
in
then an electric 914 is useless.
It will have NO storage space. And only one other seat.
It will seriously have NO Storage space. People really don't understand
it until they use one for a while. There are NO nooks and crannies
behind the seat - just a sheer firewall.
Something to keep in mind.
You would hate to spend all the time and money to make an electric only
to realize you don't have a very day to day functional vehicle when you
are finished.
You won't save gas or the environement if it is a car you really won't
drive.
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:05 am, Michael Wendell wrote:
I was just looking at the www.electroautomotive.com site
that link is http://www.electroauto.com
...and their AC kit is around 15k with batteries. After all
the talk of what's available I'm begining to think that is a
bargain. If you are a miser it will go 150 miles on the flat.
i'm a lurker, still in the dreaming stage with this, but i didn't
realize
their kits had that kind of range. i'm hoping to have the time to
seriously
begin tinkering this fall.
the 914 seems to be a somewhat popular conversion, and electro's kit
may
have something to do with that.
while i like the 914, i've been wondering if the boxster might be a
better,
more modern equivalent. what does the list think, too heavy? i've seen
beat
up boxsters selling for reasonable prices on ebay, and i'd imagine that
parting out the ICE equipment would yield a nice payback.
thanks, i'll go back to lurking.
m.
Michael Wendell
Web/Graphics Guy
Speedgoat Bicycles
724.238.7181
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Anyway you slice it, 99% is approximately 5% more efficient than 94%.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Really? How do you figure? Is it because 94+5=99? I really want to know.
So what happens if I improve already 99% efficient design and make it
yet 5% more efficient [5% improvement of that 99% gadget]?
Of course it is very doable but according to you it will have to be
to be 99+5=104% efficient then, which is nonsense.
It's percentage of percentage Peter. Unless I misunderstood you, indeed
appears like common misconception but on your part. Please re-think
or elaborate.
I agree with Victor. Taking a percent of a percent leads to nonsense.
Likewise, giving ratios of percents (which are already a ratio) only
confuses things.
Now if you're in marketing, and the purpose is to confuse people with
statistics to sell your product, then these tactics are understandable.
That's why advertisements will say, "Our revolutionary new motor is
twice as efficient as any standard motor", hoping you will think it does
twice the work with the same amount of energy. Wrong!
If a standard motor is 80% efficient and their motor is 90%, then it has
half the losses, but only does 10% more work for a given amount of
energy. They are "lying with statistics".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Best Conversion Vehicle
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 16:33:50 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Dan Whitley wonders:
>If the 914 is not the best convert then what is? I am not
> > a mechanic, so a kit sounds good to me!!!!
There isn't one answer. If there was, it'd just mean you
didn't ask the question properly. :)=)}
Since I can't give you The Answer, I'll give you an
answer that I've come up with -- which illustrates
how my thinking runs in this regard and might be
a guide to your own.
Like a lot of newcomers to EVs I started out with
a completely unrealistic set of wants. Then I got
a rush of brains to the head and did some research.
After that, I still have a set of unrealistic wants, but
at least they're only unrealistic considering my funds,
not relying on overunity, Martians or superbatteries.
:)=)}
I want an EV for those times when I want some
cubic space but don't want to burn cubic inches to
move said space. I fairly regularly handle bulky but
not massy items in quantities larger than I can fit
into our Honda Civic Hybrid, and I hate starting a
5.8L gasser just to haul 100 pounds of wool to
the bus station. I pay about US$5/US gallon.
My choice is made much simpler by the services
that are available in my vicinity. Nil, actually, but
there is a very reputable shop within a day's drive.
That shop, CanEV, has worked out a set of kit
to convert an S-10 pickup to EV. They will also
install the kit, and by using their prefab parts they
can cut the labour charge about in half over what
it would take for them to convert any other vehicle.
Randy Holmquist up there is a good guy to talk
to. He helped me get my head on straight about
the project.
That means I'm in the market for an S-10. I actually
really like CanEV's little truck a lot better, but it has
some serious drawbacks for me:
1. It's speed-limited to 40km/hr, so getting to work
would be an hour's drive. Not a real problem, I got
coffee and a radio and I'd get up earlier and enjoy
the ride. But I live on a road where the speed limit
is merely advisory -- 80 km/hr but if you know the
road you can do 130 if you're not afraid of hitting
a deer. I would hate to be a hood ornament on
a log truck.
2. It costs about what an S-10 conversion would
cost me, less of course actually buying the glider.
3. The biggie is that currently Canada's laws don't
allow small EV trucks on the roads. It's just two
words in the law, but until there's some testicular
fortitude in our government and some clarity in the
law it just ain't gonna happen. Much easier to talk
about "green timelines" so long that the people
now in power will be dead before anyone realizes
nobody figured out how to pay for them.
Eh, sorry. Anyway, that's how I decided on an S-10.
The wife wants a Tesla. I told her she could spend
her money however she wanted. I want something
that'll get me to work most of the year and that I
can use to haul the canoe up to the lake and still
have enough juice (between batteries and regen)
to get home again afterward. Good thing we live
close to the lake.
The other thing I figure is that you have to decide
when to jump on the bandwagon. Something
roomy like an S-10 probably will accommodate new
batteries and more powerful motors as state of the
art advances. Or, if the performance or cool-factor
doesn't balance out the economics, it'll plug along
for years doing exactly what I want it to do with
what it has.
Chuck
_________________________________________________________________
Upgrade to Windows Live Hotmail for free today!
www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA151
--- End Message ---
