EV Digest 6848
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New to list and electric motor mounting question
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New to list and electric motor mounting question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: New to list and electric motor mounting question
by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Two 9's vs one 11" and other motor ramblings
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: How increased mass affects performance (was: RE: Power of DC
- Sunday's Pool Party (the drag race))
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: High Speed Electric Winch
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New to list and electric motor mounting question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
9) High Speed Electric Winch
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor pics, was: Re: Hangin' with the Motor Dog ...etc
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: High Speed Electric Winch
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Two 9's vs one 11" and other motor ramblings
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV's are less maintenance?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Two 9's vs one 11" and other motor ramblings
by "Ian Jordan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Motor Adapter Plate
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 95 BMW 525i conversion
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor pics, was: Re: Hangin' with the Motor Dog ...etc
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor Adapter Plate
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It probably depends on how it is designed for the ICE. If it's the
jetta, you cannnot install the engine separately from the tranny (I
tried with a golf...). So, unless the electric motor is alot shorter
than the ICE, with a transverse design you sort of have to
remove/install them together, and it usually isn't too hard to make it
so you can do it from below, given the smaller diameter of the motor
compared to the ICE.
If it's a longitudinal deign, then it's generally designed to be able
to take the engine out with or without the tranny, and to be able to
take the tranny out the bottom without the engine. Taking the engine
out of the bottom is usually the problem. The ICE can't go down,
because it's too wide, but the motor could, provided you figure out
how to remove the main crossmember. Now, that's a pretty important
part of the vehicle structure, so I'd rather not mess with it.
Though, as Roland says, by the time you are done, there will alot of
other crap -- batteries, controllers, etc, in the way of going up.
Z
On 6/5/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Brain,
I find its best to install the motor and transmission together as a unit. I
use a wood stand to hold the motor and transmission while I work on it.
Things to check out when mating a transmission to a motor adapter and
coupler.
The input shaft of the transmission should not butt tight into the pilot
bearing. You may to adjust the motor coupler if the pilot bearing is
install in the motor coupler.
Also you may have to shim the flywheel or shave off the back of the flywheel
so you have at least 1/8 inch of throw out bearing clearance.
You may have to use a short or long throw out bearing to get the clearance
to the pressure plate.
While this units is on your test stand and assembly, test out the rotation
with the transmission for these clearances. You may have to pull the
transmission several times to make these adjustments.
Other test you can do is, to rotate the motor with 12 volts, to see how much
ampere is draw. Then add the transmission again and load test it again.
There should be little change.
On the first initial installation of the motor, I first install motor and
transmission assemble from the top because the engine bay was gutted out at
that time.
Later if you have to remove the motor for maintenance, you will find that
your motor bay is jam pack with a controller, accessory drive units and etc.
It is best to engineer the motor and transmission mounts so you can remove
out the bottom.
What I did, was to shorten up the rear transmission cross member which
normally sat on top of the frame rails. Bolted on large steel plates to the
frame rails and then can lift up the motor and transmission with the
transmission cross member attach as one unit and bolt cross member right to
these plates from the bottom with 7/16 inch grade 8 bolts with no hassle.
I modified a floor jack that has a 3 inch U channel bolted into the jack
pad. A 2 inch square tubing that is about 40 inches long sets in this U
channel and can be pin at different holes.
At the motor end of the 2 inch channel, a motor mount is made from cutting a
large tubing in half so it can cradle the motor. At the transmission end it
mounts to the transmission cross member by either bolts or pins.
It takes less than 60 minutes for me to swap out motors and transmissions,
that is when I get the vehicle jack up on large heavy duty jack stands.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: New to list and electric motor mounting question
> Hi, I'm rather new to EVs. So I thought I'd join the list and pick your
> brains.
>
> I've got a Jetta in which the ICE should be out this weekend.
> Here's my austive ev site http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
>
> I was wondering if it is 100% necessary to remove the transmission to
> mount
> the motor? I should have ample room to get around under the hood when
> the
> ICE is out. See http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/popupimg.php?49 for
> what
> it will look like when the ICE is out; however, in this this pic the owner
> did remove the transmission.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian in TX
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>it usually isn't too hard to make it
>so you can do it from below, given the smaller diameter of the motor
>compared to the ICE.
The first and second generation Jetta/Golf (and I assume later versions as
well) were designed so the ICE/transmission combination could be removed from
below. You could pull the transmission and leave the engine in place, but not
the other way around.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of the cars I have dealt with had the engine and transmission mounted to a
separate "frame", undo the upper motor mount and then four bolts on the bottom
and the entire engine and trans basically falls on the ground.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:18 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: New to list and electric motor mounting question
>it usually isn't too hard to make it
>so you can do it from below, given the smaller diameter of the motor
>compared to the ICE.
The first and second generation Jetta/Golf (and I assume later versions as
well) were designed so the ICE/transmission combination could be removed from
below. You could pull the transmission and leave the engine in place, but not
the other way around.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I couldn't find the original post asking about using a
single 11 or going the dual 9" route using direct
drive. Anyway I thought I'd throw together a quick
IMO post. Being a non EVDL guy just called me today
asking the same question I took it as a sign I should
reply before God started using harsher ways to get my
attention 8^)
First off IMO there are pro's and con's to both. Now
most people tend to use a smaller motor than they
"really need" as most are under some sort of budget
(if you're not, damn, give me a call, hehe), but then
you don't want some big honking beast of a motor
either as most will be just carried around as dead
weight. People think having a big motor is going to
make it fast or make huge torque and they can, but you
have to be able to feed that beast.
A local guy picked up a twin to the 13" Yellow beast I
built for Wayland out of a 72 volt forklift. It did
29 MPH at 120 volts, LMAO! So at 120 volts that motor
only ran small RPM's Now a small 7" lift type motor
would have gave him much better performance.
Now the smaller motor will work harder (get
hotter)than a bigger one and in fact I kind of compare
motor mass as a basic rule of thumb. Two 9's weight
about 300lbs and
a TransWarp11 at about 230lbs so in general I'd say
the twin 9's would have an easier job. But do you
need to carry around an extra 70 lbs ? Make it 100
with coupler, mountings, extra cable, etc. Could that
100bs be better used in batts? Just something to
think about.
Now as far as performance goes I'd place a bet toward
the dual 9 setup as it does have the series / parallel
shifting ability as well as a bit more meat. The
added comm mass of a dual 9" is also a plus as they
share the current as well as doing it seperatly
dispersing heat better. Looking at Wayland, Graham
and now Bill Dube it seems appearent to me that there
is something to it.
Being Wayland just did a little tracking on the White
Zombie he got some pretty good numbers, then again
that was using a single 8 with 125lbs of snot hanging
out as dead weight. His numbers might go up once he
gets 16 brushes actually commutating 8^)
Some of the con toward going dual 9's would be the
extra weight, having to couple them, the length,
working out mounting them both in, true, lol. Where
as mounting in a single motor would be easier to
start EVing 8^)
I can't remember the jist of why they asked but
hopfully this helps a little, just ask yourself if you
want 100 lbs more in batts or motor. In a perfect
world you'd get both, we're not there yet 8^)
Also just to confirm, it fine to back out your
driveway if your brush timing is advanced. That is as
long as it's not 15 miles long with a 35 MPH speed
limit 8^)
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee A. Hart wrote:
The horsepower is all there; but at higher rpm and lower torque.
You just need a gear reducer. Maybe it can be the old transmission;
just leave it in 2nd or 3rd gear. But most normal car transmissions
aren't built for 13,000 RPM. There are questions about how long
they would hold up. Most AC EVs have therefore used custom gear
reducers that *are* designed for these speeds.
Tehben Dean wrote:
So can't you just use the stock transmission and shift gears to keep
the rpm's below 7,000 or something. Heck I like driving a
stick-shift! ;D I guess you would have to make sure you don't get
clutch happy with all that torque from the electric motor waiting to
grind it to bits... :P
For fastest acceleration, you shift to keep the motor as near as
possible to its peak horsepower RPM. For both AC and DC systems, this
occurs where the controller draws maximum battery current. If you look
at a graph of battery current versus motor speed, it looks like this
(more bad ASCII art):
battery current (amps)
| /\
| / \
| / \
| / \
|/________\____motor RPM
That peak is your peak horsepower point. Below this point, the
controller is in current limit; you are feeding constant current to the
motor, which means battery current ramps up as RPM increases. Above this
point, the controller is applying full pack voltage to the motor; it
can't go any higher, so battery current falls again as RPM goes still
higher.
With a DC system, the peak horsepower RPM will be somewhere around
2000-4000 RPM. That's very similar to ICEs, so a normal transmission and
clutch will work with it.
With an AC system, the peak horsepower RPM is higher; up around
6000-8000 RPM. It's possible, but risky to use a stock transmission and
clutch at these speeds. Far better to replace them with parts built for
the job.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Performance is pretty good, and range is... dismal, but adequet.
The performance and range is kinda given with the weight and battery
spec. orbitals is about 280V and 34ah(at 1 hour rate ) so about 17
miles to 80% DOD or is that 21 miles. Not to clear if that 1 hour AGM
rate is adjusted to 80%DOD. If I look at it as 80% of 50ah * 280V then
I could claim 24 Miles to 80DOD.
I used to get ~350 wh/mile for, tested once, 27mile range. I do not know
why my wh/mile jumped up. (no brake drag, tranny alignment fine, Only
thing that changed was I xploded the motor and had it rebuilt. But I
don't think that is the problem.)
Ironically I also got 350 wh/mile when I had 17 batteries, The added
weight was not as important as the fact that the added weight made my
gear ratio wrong and the amp draw went up non-linearly. So It almost
seems like 17 batteries was same range as 24 batteries. I think the gear
ratio has to match the torque constant of the motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Trevor
Looks fun but something I'd hate to be liable for 8^)
I didn't see anything on the video that showed me any
how it works stuff but I thought I'd get you some
feedback. I'm thinking that an electric setup will be
a bit different at least in respects to when you let
go of the rope 8^o
Now a golf cart motor at lets say 48 to maybe 72 volts
would match or exceed that 9HP gasser motor. Again
just a guess depending on the load you are needing to
be pulled and speed etc. The problem is what happens
to that 36 volt motor that's now over volted to
generate your needed HP when it goes from being under
load to freespinng at 72 volts? I can tell ya, it
aint pretty 8^P Anyway just a word of caution to
ratio it down to where the motor won't over rev at
full current and still gets you your speeds needed,
does that make sense? Kinda tired, lol.
In fact I'd start low current and work up, you might
find it only takes 24 volts to haul you around. Again
just wanting to warn how fast these motors will rev
up!
Hope this helps
Don't kill yourself, oh God to be young again 8^) and
I'm not EVen old yet, hehe 8^P
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- shoredrivevb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I built a "winch" to tow wakeskaters in ponds,
> pools, creeks,
> ditches, lakes, and any small body of water. Its a 9
> hp gas motor
> attached to a spool holding 550 ft. of waterski
> rope.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
photos & more.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I pulled the engine out of a New Beetle and left the transmission in the car.
(There is a VW mechanic somewhere scratching his head - what?)
It's a transverse mounted engine and based on the Golf (I think).
The front crankshaft pulley has to come off, and, of course, the transmission
has to be indexed and supported..
Zero clearance between the frame and the end of the crank, but other than that,
it actually comes out very nicely.
Nothing had to be hacked or wrecked up - just unbolted.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> It probably depends on how it is designed for the ICE. If it's the
> jetta, you cannnot install the engine separately from the tranny (I
> tried with a golf...). So, unless the electric motor is alot shorter
> than the ICE, with a transverse design you sort of have to
> remove/install them together, and it usually isn't too hard to make it
> so you can do it from below, given the smaller diameter of the motor
> compared to the ICE.
>
> If it's a longitudinal deign, then it's generally designed to be able
> to take the engine out with or without the tranny, and to be able to
> take the tranny out the bottom without the engine. Taking the engine
> out of the bottom is usually the problem. The ICE can't go down,
> because it's too wide, but the motor could, provided you figure out
> how to remove the main crossmember. Now, that's a pretty important
> part of the vehicle structure, so I'd rather not mess with it.
> Though, as Roland says, by the time you are done, there will alot of
> other crap -- batteries, controllers, etc, in the way of going up.
>
> Z
>
> On 6/5/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello Brain,
> >
> > I find its best to install the motor and transmission together as a unit. I
> > use a wood stand to hold the motor and transmission while I work on it.
> >
> > Things to check out when mating a transmission to a motor adapter and
> > coupler.
> >
> > The input shaft of the transmission should not butt tight into the pilot
> > bearing. You may to adjust the motor coupler if the pilot bearing is
> > install in the motor coupler.
> >
> > Also you may have to shim the flywheel or shave off the back of the flywheel
> > so you have at least 1/8 inch of throw out bearing clearance.
> >
> > You may have to use a short or long throw out bearing to get the clearance
> > to the pressure plate.
> >
> > While this units is on your test stand and assembly, test out the rotation
> > with the transmission for these clearances. You may have to pull the
> > transmission several times to make these adjustments.
> >
> > Other test you can do is, to rotate the motor with 12 volts, to see how much
> > ampere is draw. Then add the transmission again and load test it again.
> > There should be little change.
> >
> > On the first initial installation of the motor, I first install motor and
> > transmission assemble from the top because the engine bay was gutted out at
> > that time.
> >
> > Later if you have to remove the motor for maintenance, you will find that
> > your motor bay is jam pack with a controller, accessory drive units and etc.
> > It is best to engineer the motor and transmission mounts so you can remove
> > out the bottom.
> >
> > What I did, was to shorten up the rear transmission cross member which
> > normally sat on top of the frame rails. Bolted on large steel plates to the
> > frame rails and then can lift up the motor and transmission with the
> > transmission cross member attach as one unit and bolt cross member right to
> > these plates from the bottom with 7/16 inch grade 8 bolts with no hassle.
> >
> > I modified a floor jack that has a 3 inch U channel bolted into the jack
> > pad. A 2 inch square tubing that is about 40 inches long sets in this U
> > channel and can be pin at different holes.
> >
> > At the motor end of the 2 inch channel, a motor mount is made from cutting a
> > large tubing in half so it can cradle the motor. At the transmission end it
> > mounts to the transmission cross member by either bolts or pins.
> >
> > It takes less than 60 minutes for me to swap out motors and transmissions,
> > that is when I get the vehicle jack up on large heavy duty jack stands.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:59 PM
> > Subject: New to list and electric motor mounting question
> >
> >
> > > Hi, I'm rather new to EVs. So I thought I'd join the list and pick your
> > > brains.
> > >
> > > I've got a Jetta in which the ICE should be out this weekend.
> > > Here's my austive ev site http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
> > >
> > > I was wondering if it is 100% necessary to remove the transmission to
> > > mount
> > > the motor? I should have ample room to get around under the hood when
> > > the
> > > ICE is out. See http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/popupimg.php?49 for
> > > what
> > > it will look like when the ICE is out; however, in this this pic the owner
> > > did remove the transmission.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Brian in TX
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, you know 9hp does the job.
In general 3 electric HP does as much as 5 gas HP. (some say 3:1
ratio, but I assume you are running that ICE Wide Open?)
or 1hp = 746Watts
9hp = 6.714kw @144V = 46Amps.
Wow, This seems very do-able.
Now the tricky part, 8 hours of operation. If it really pulled 46Amps
@144V for 8 hours that is 53Kwh. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Maybe we say you only run 25% duty? gotta pull the cable out and we come
in a lot faster than go out.
Now the amps,ah's and benefit of having the weight anyway says lead
acid floddies. (24 6V golfcart 100Ah batteries. )
Jim Husted can probably chime in here on the best motor. 6"???
What do you guys think, This to me sounds like an application that
should avoid a series wound motor. The load can very and the inertia is
low and we don't want to rip the guys arm off or overspeed the motor
when airborn. This should probably be a shunt wound or compound wound motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> G'day Jim, All
>
> The good twin has been busy, motor isn't finished
> yet, but some pics up at:
Hey James
I've been thinking about this whole Evil twin thing
and how I ended up with the evil side of the stick!
Anyway maybe we're both good twins 8^) and just
seperated at birth by an evil mother 8^o
I mean I try to be a good twin! I donate motors to
NDRA, send supplys to jerks in Tasmainia, and always
make time to talk with someone wanting info. I spend
countless hours patroling the EVDL currents and eddys
searching for people in need of help or will be soon.
Always curtious of EVeryones feelings and tactful in
response. Anyway just wanted to get that off my
chest. You do one "little" thing and you're Mother
Massey, FURTHERMORE, I saw your new pictures and WELL
I HAVE A FEW COMMENTS! Oh sorry must of let a little
evil escape, hate it when that happens 8^o
>
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Electric-vehicle-pics
> click the
> Maritime College album.
I see you're getting used to the working with the
Fusa-Fab 8^) After it gets cured there might be some
hangover to trim back around the pole shoes. From the
one housing pic it almost looks like the inside is
painted. Being we hashed that out a while back I'm
hoping it's just the pic and you aren't doing stuff
that makes me post replies that got me that whole evil
title in the first place 8^o
It'll be fun to see what kind of data they get, you
have any idea what year it'll be done? What? 8^P
Just asking, jeez!
Cya
J from the other way 8^)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jeff, all
Using some info gleaned off Dans golfcart he got
around 3HP using 24 volts on a 24 volt lift motor
comparing it to when it was a gasser. At 48 volts I'd
guess equal to 7.5 maybe 8HP and why I stated I feel
it'll probably take a higher voltage to achieve his
needs.
Anyway something like what Lawrence Rhodes has is what
I'm thinking is needed. L's got two units he pulled
off some old lifts with the gear reduction unit still
attached at I believe 10 to 1. You could rev the
motor to 3K and get a wheel speed of 300. This kind
of setup goes as fast pushing a forklift around as
they would freespinning for the most part his load
would effect it's rpms very little.
Maybe Lawrence might be talked into parting with one
of his? You got your ears on L?
If I were him I'd be searching for an old drive unit
from a 3 wheel standup.
Even using a compound wound which would probably be a
better selection he'll need to gear it right and limit
voltage to motor to not exceed motor rpms of 6K for a
6.7" which I would say would do the trick. For
something being used really hard or for long periods
maybe a 7" would be happier at work so to speak.
Hope this helps. I do admit I've not spent a great
deal of time pondering what motor it would take to
pull a guy across a lake 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Wake Electric 8^)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim, I agree with your analysis and not just because the proof is in the
pudding. The real truth is in two factors, as you mentioned, com area. There
is no substitute for amp sucking ability than the square centimeters of
commutator surface. Another point is the diameter of the eleven. As Bill
Dube has pointed out numerous times on this list, you have to accelerate the
mass of that motor twice. Once to increase the RPMs and once more to
accelerate it's mass down the track. The smaller diameter motor will spin up
quicker than a larger one. Anyway, I agree with your analysis if in fact
that you were insinuating that dual nines would kick a single elevens ass in
the quarter mile given the same controller and batteries :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Two 9's vs one 11" and other motor ramblings
Hey all
I couldn't find the original post asking about using a
single 11 or going the dual 9" route using direct
drive. Anyway I thought I'd throw together a quick
IMO post. Being a non EVDL guy just called me today
asking the same question I took it as a sign I should
reply before God started using harsher ways to get my
attention 8^)
First off IMO there are pro's and con's to both. Now
most people tend to use a smaller motor than they
"really need" as most are under some sort of budget
(if you're not, damn, give me a call, hehe), but then
you don't want some big honking beast of a motor
either as most will be just carried around as dead
weight. People think having a big motor is going to
make it fast or make huge torque and they can, but you
have to be able to feed that beast.
A local guy picked up a twin to the 13" Yellow beast I
built for Wayland out of a 72 volt forklift. It did
29 MPH at 120 volts, LMAO! So at 120 volts that motor
only ran small RPM's Now a small 7" lift type motor
would have gave him much better performance.
Now the smaller motor will work harder (get
hotter)than a bigger one and in fact I kind of compare
motor mass as a basic rule of thumb. Two 9's weight
about 300lbs and
a TransWarp11 at about 230lbs so in general I'd say
the twin 9's would have an easier job. But do you
need to carry around an extra 70 lbs ? Make it 100
with coupler, mountings, extra cable, etc. Could that
100bs be better used in batts? Just something to
think about.
Now as far as performance goes I'd place a bet toward
the dual 9 setup as it does have the series / parallel
shifting ability as well as a bit more meat. The
added comm mass of a dual 9" is also a plus as they
share the current as well as doing it seperatly
dispersing heat better. Looking at Wayland, Graham
and now Bill Dube it seems appearent to me that there
is something to it.
Being Wayland just did a little tracking on the White
Zombie he got some pretty good numbers, then again
that was using a single 8 with 125lbs of snot hanging
out as dead weight. His numbers might go up once he
gets 16 brushes actually commutating 8^)
Some of the con toward going dual 9's would be the
extra weight, having to couple them, the length,
working out mounting them both in, true, lol. Where
as mounting in a single motor would be easier to
start EVing 8^)
I can't remember the jist of why they asked but
hopfully this helps a little, just ask yourself if you
want 100 lbs more in batts or motor. In a perfect
world you'd get both, we're not there yet 8^)
Also just to confirm, it fine to back out your
driveway if your brush timing is advanced. That is as
long as it's not 15 miles long with a 35 MPH speed
limit 8^)
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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Hi Rich,
sounds like you have had your share of component death issues
rather than EV maintenance issues. To me, maintenance means what
tasks one does to maintain a working EV (cleaning, watering, etc.).
But had you known, you would have kept the water out of the
charger, and heat sink-ed the Curtis controller.
...
My Blazer EV originally had a Curtis controller in it. I smoked
two of them until Otmar pointed out that moisture was sneaking in
through cracks in the podding (where the metal tangs come out
there is this solid gunk put in to 'seal' the controller).
My problem was not an issue of heat sinking. It was of proper
cabling to stop the power cable vibration. My cable vibration
(while driving) was little by little creating cracks in that
Curtis controller podding.
Once the cracks were there, the constant heating and cooling
of the controller, made it breathe in and out the outside air.
That brought in moisture that corroded the Curtis components.
The 1221 models of controller use many small IGBTs to control
the power. When one goes, the rest are over loaded and let the
smoke out like a blown set of Xmas lights (Poof!).
I suggest you keep moisture out of all components, that includes
your charger, controller, DC to DC, etc. Also keep the tops
of your batteries clean. I clean mine each month when I water
the pack. One cleaning pass with a Windex type glass cleaner
and a paper wipe before I take the caps off, and again after
the watering and the caps are back on.
When you put a heat sink on your Curtis, make sure the heat
sink can dissipate even on MD's hottest days. Some people
have even put a heat sink with a fan on the top and the
bottom of the controller (sandwiches). The Curtis
controller repair and EV downtime is not worth doing the
job cheap. Do it right and you should not have to repair
it again.
...
An EV story:
Many moons ago when I was driving my EV on its second Curtis,
I decided to show off my EV by driving it to a company Xmas
dinner. Of course I was in EVangel mode so I was yakking it up
and even got the restaurant manager to give me permission to
plug in while I was there (I did not need it, I was showing it
could be done).
OK, so the dinner was very nice and I was successful in wooing
everyone into "Bruce's EV is pretty Cool". I waved my good-byes
as I left the restaurant driveway onto the city street.
I had a smooth ride as I drove though the Wintry foggy cold
night. I jockeyed just fine on the Hwy fighting my way through
traffic with everyone else.
I took a Hwy exit to stop off at the grocery store before
heading home. Everything was fine and great as I made my right
turn around the corner and into the grocery store's parking
lot.
I put the clutch in and coasted into an empty parking spot as
I usually do. When I came to a stop a POP! sound with a POOF!
of smoke as a large flume came out from the gap between the hood
and the left side of the body.
I quickly pulled the red KILL knob, that opened the power circuit.
Smoke was still coming from under the hood, so I popped the hood
to open it. I found small flames coming out of the Curtis
controller. I put the flames out, but knew my EV was now toast.
The grocery's shopping-cart boy now ended his 'deer-frozen-in-
the-headlights' act and again started moving his carts away.
His head was shaking like 'what a piece of junk'.
Needless to say, my night did not end as great as the dinner
went. Good thing I always carry an insurance tow card.
My EV was down, and I was already going through EV withdrawals.
My only solace was that many EV'rs at that time (early 90's)
were also smoking Curtis controllers (that's how Curtis
Controllers got the nick name the "Curse-it" controller.
...
So, do your best to stop power cable vibration and keep that
controller cool. Or you will be be cursing it too.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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Guys, I was the original poster asking about the 11" vs dual 9"s. It
was for the 3 series BMW conversion.
I really appreciate your help and ideas. It appears the dual 9"s
really are the way to go for my goals. The TransWarp 9 is meant to
bolt up to a warp 9 to double them up, so hopefully it's not too much
of a pain. I'm sure my first drive will be with a single 9" though ;)
The BMW's have lots of room under the hood so I doubt length will be an issue.
Now I get to ask one more question: What's the advantage of the
series/parallel switching, and how is it done?
I'm assuming you run series motors while at low RPM when you're
current limited in order to use the controller at higher duty cycles,
and then switch to parallel when you become voltage limited. I assume
you use a contactor to do the swap while everything is still powered
up and running under load. The only advantage I see is for the
controller's load at low RPM. Is this the only reason or am I missing
something?
Thanks again,
Ian
On 6/6/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim, I agree with your analysis and not just because the proof is in the
pudding. The real truth is in two factors, as you mentioned, com area. There
is no substitute for amp sucking ability than the square centimeters of
commutator surface. Another point is the diameter of the eleven. As Bill
Dube has pointed out numerous times on this list, you have to accelerate the
mass of that motor twice. Once to increase the RPMs and once more to
accelerate it's mass down the track. The smaller diameter motor will spin up
quicker than a larger one. Anyway, I agree with your analysis if in fact
that you were insinuating that dual nines would kick a single elevens ass in
the quarter mile given the same controller and batteries :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Two 9's vs one 11" and other motor ramblings
> Hey all
>
> I couldn't find the original post asking about using a
> single 11 or going the dual 9" route using direct
> drive. Anyway I thought I'd throw together a quick
> IMO post. Being a non EVDL guy just called me today
> asking the same question I took it as a sign I should
> reply before God started using harsher ways to get my
> attention 8^)
>
> First off IMO there are pro's and con's to both. Now
> most people tend to use a smaller motor than they
> "really need" as most are under some sort of budget
> (if you're not, damn, give me a call, hehe), but then
> you don't want some big honking beast of a motor
> either as most will be just carried around as dead
> weight. People think having a big motor is going to
> make it fast or make huge torque and they can, but you
> have to be able to feed that beast.
>
> A local guy picked up a twin to the 13" Yellow beast I
> built for Wayland out of a 72 volt forklift. It did
> 29 MPH at 120 volts, LMAO! So at 120 volts that motor
> only ran small RPM's Now a small 7" lift type motor
> would have gave him much better performance.
>
> Now the smaller motor will work harder (get
> hotter)than a bigger one and in fact I kind of compare
> motor mass as a basic rule of thumb. Two 9's weight
> about 300lbs and
> a TransWarp11 at about 230lbs so in general I'd say
> the twin 9's would have an easier job. But do you
> need to carry around an extra 70 lbs ? Make it 100
> with coupler, mountings, extra cable, etc. Could that
> 100bs be better used in batts? Just something to
> think about.
>
> Now as far as performance goes I'd place a bet toward
> the dual 9 setup as it does have the series / parallel
> shifting ability as well as a bit more meat. The
> added comm mass of a dual 9" is also a plus as they
> share the current as well as doing it seperatly
> dispersing heat better. Looking at Wayland, Graham
> and now Bill Dube it seems appearent to me that there
> is something to it.
>
> Being Wayland just did a little tracking on the White
> Zombie he got some pretty good numbers, then again
> that was using a single 8 with 125lbs of snot hanging
> out as dead weight. His numbers might go up once he
> gets 16 brushes actually commutating 8^)
>
> Some of the con toward going dual 9's would be the
> extra weight, having to couple them, the length,
> working out mounting them both in, true, lol. Where
> as mounting in a single motor would be easier to
> start EVing 8^)
>
> I can't remember the jist of why they asked but
> hopfully this helps a little, just ask yourself if you
> want 100 lbs more in batts or motor. In a perfect
> world you'd get both, we're not there yet 8^)
>
> Also just to confirm, it fine to back out your
> driveway if your brush timing is advanced. That is as
> long as it's not 15 miles long with a 35 MPH speed
> limit 8^)
> Hope this helps
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
> for the edge of your seat?
> Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/834 - Release Date: 6/5/2007
> 2:38 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Motor Adapter Plate
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
This is a big question. COnvert It talkes about
facing the bell housing downward, and tracing the
outline.
But if you're asking what will hold the tightest, for
the longest time, taperlock hub is the best route.
My DVD shows the flywheel being mated to it (after
having 2/3 or so shaved off).
If you're asking about the specific machinery, my
fabricator used a water-cut method, believe it or not!
Hope that got you started,
--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the normal and or best way to get/make an
> adapter plate to
> mate the motor to the transmission?
>
> Thanks,
> Tehben Dean
> -Lithium batteries are totally
> <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but
> don't think about them, its bad for your morale-
>
>
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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