EV Digest 6854
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Corded mower
by "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New EVDL survey
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thundersky Real World Experience
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: My thoughts as my EV conversion nears 10k electric miles
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
by "Peter & Kyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Siamese8 rub pics up
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thundersky. No BMS
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thundersky. Valence No BMS
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Venting
by "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Wrecks
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Battery watering
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Li affordability, Re: Thundersky Peri
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New EVDL survey
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Thundersky. Valence No BMS
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New EVDL survey
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Power of DC, BC EV Show, & other misc. Race Stuff
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New EVDL survey
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: High Speed Electric Winch
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery watering
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It is worthwhile to note that a NiMH cell can be seen as such a cell, at
a basic level. The H20 in the electrolyte loses an H which stores in
the hydride while the remaining OH- stays in solution making it more
alkaline. The reverse of course gets electricity by recombining the H
and OH- to make water.
Danny
(-Phil-) wrote:
This is called a "reversible fuel cell", and it's basically what a
normal fuel cell does, but will also work in reverse.... The
efficiency is horrible for all existing devices. So far, Not even on
the same planet as a good old SLA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_fuel_cell
Even if you used a "normal" fuel cell, the most efficient ones ever
created so far, and the most efficient electrolysis system to make the
fuel, you still end up with a inefficient system, and one that's
ridiculously costly (so far).
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
I've thought of some sort of rechargable fuel cell, where the O and H
are stored in tanks, and when discharged, you'd get water. Charging
would seperate the water into O and H again. It would all be self
contained.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2007 3:07:39 PM
Subject: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
Check out my idea:
1. Manufacture battery to *maximize* generation of
Hydrogen when cycling, instead of maximizing
recombination as SLAs do.
2. Route the Hydrogen to the fuel cell side of the
device, which then generates more power.
3. Route waste water from fuel cell back into battery.
4. Charge battery with any excess electrical output
from fuel cell (like when's there's no other
application demand on fuel cell). Of course also
charge battery from wall as needed.
Thoughts?
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking about converting my riding lawn mower to a corded electric.
I have some ideas to deal with the cord. I was thinking about using one of
those cord reel setups. We'll have to see how it holds up reeling under
load. Or maybe a coiled cord affair with a mast on the mower and elevated
attach point on the house. The farthest point is around 200'+ from the plug.
I have almost an acre under grass and It will get kind of dicey out on the
edge where about a 1/3 acre chunk has a dozen trees on it.
The main question that I have is: The current ICE motor on it is a 19HP
Briggs. What HP electric motor do I need to replace that?
Thanks
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The rest of the forklift components are heavy, dirty, and you are going to
have a LOT of metal to dispose of, drop on your toes, etc.
I've been down this road myself. I'd try to just get him to let you at it
wherever it is and take what you want. The controller, contactors and all
the electricals are usually on a removable panel. It's usually a GE SCR
controller. Grab that and the potbox and you'll have everything useful.
Schematics for such controllers are easy to find.
If you can't get him to let you take parts off there, then just forego the
rest, you can always buy a SCR based controller for next to nothing if you
want it. There are a lot of them around. They suck.
And using a high-power belt is fine to connect the motors. Belts have some
friction loss, but I'd go that way before I'd try to do mechanical mods.
Otmar did this in his 914. Check out his site:
http://evcl.com/914/
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:33 AM
Subject: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
Hey everyone,
After a good beginning of summer and a couple weeks into my first job Im
fnally at a starting place for my convertion. Here is what i got... A 77
datsun 280z. It has a 4 speed thats probably the same as other datsun
transmissions I see in some 1200 conversions. I found a forklift. Its a 3
wheel (yale I think) 3000 lbs. It has 2 decent sized drive motors. One for
the left and one for the rights side. The fella at the forklift shop was
gonna scrap the lift so instead he will just give me the motors. They appear
to be in good condition, he said there was a hydraulic problem not
electrical. im thinkign about trying tho buy the whole lift from him. Offer
him salvage value that way I can get the controller (only 36v) and wires and
be sure of the wiring arrangement. Then I want to use both motors, take
advantage of the series/ parrallel switching, for a quick little car. Now
for the questions...
1. Is buying the forklift, no matter how cheap, worth it? Is there really
any other usable parts and enough cables to we work the effort of hauling
and transporting?
2. As I remember, both motors only have a drive shaft on one end. Can I have
a machine shop weld an extention onto one motor and lathe it down. So I can
couple the second motor behind it. Will it be strong enough? Can I press in
a new shaft? Is it possible or worth it?
3. Can I have both motors mounted side by side connected with a timing belt
arangement similar to a motorcycle drive belt and how long do you think that
would last?
4. Is the 36v controller any good? Can I use this at low speeds and starts
and then cut it out with a contactor and do the rest of my speed control
with contactors arangng the batteries in series/ parrallel?
Sorry this is so many questions. They all just seem to come up at the same
time.
Thanks, Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A9C9.431341AE"
Subject: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 08:33:48 -0400
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thread-Topic: Twin Motors, forklifts and drive belts?
thread-index: AcepVIjbTjCAdjLESEmImaN7tUAE4gAcaKEE
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "childreypa--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul wrote:
> 1. Is buying the forklift, no matter how cheap, worth it? Is
> there really any other usable parts and enough cables to we
> work the effort of hauling and transporting?
No. The 36V controller and wiring won't be useful in your car.
> 2. As I remember, both motors only have a drive shaft on one
> end. Can I have a machine shop weld an extention onto one
> motor and lathe it down. So I can couple the second motor
> behind it. Will it be strong enough? Can I press in a new
> shaft? Is it possible or worth it?
Jim Husted is your man. I wouldn't bother with anything less than
having a new shaft pressed in, and I'm not sure if it would be cheaper
to have that done than to just belt the motors together.
> 3. Can I have both motors mounted side by side connected with
> a timing belt arangement similar to a motorcycle drive belt
> and how long do you think that would last?
Yes. There are a few vehicles setup like this. The first to come to
mind is Otmar's CaPope 914:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/293>
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/popupimg.php?1935>
> 4. Is the 36v controller any good? Can I use this at low
> speeds and starts and then cut it out with a contactor and do
> the rest of my speed control with contactors arangng the
> batteries in series/ parrallel?
This could be possible, but if you want to run with two motors you are
probably best off to get in the queue for a 'Zilla controller with
series-parallel switching instead (and then ditch the tranny entirely).
With your car's IRS rear end, another option could be to ditch the
differential and tranny and belt or chain one motor to each half-shaft.
This would avoid the need to modify the motor shaft or to couple the
motors together.
To get decent performance from the car you will have to run these motors
on significantly more than 36V, so you will need to advance the timing
and possibly address some other details (check with Jim).
Low voltage motors such as this may be inherently low RPM high torque,
which would make them well-suited to directly driving the rear
half-shafts since you wouldn't need as much reduction between the motor
and shaft as with higher RPM motors.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took the survey. I've run mailman for many years on my own server, and I
host many lists. It's a great package!
In addition, I think these are probably somewhat obvious, but for a
discussion list, I think the "reply_goes_to_list" should be set to "this
list". I also usually set "personalize" to "yes" (not Full!).
If you need any questions answered, let me know, I'd be happy to assist!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: New EVDL survey
Mailman has some options which we can configure. I'd like your opinions
on
some of them. Please take a few minutes to fill out a survey. It's
entirely anonymous. There are only 5 questions.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=8Lxd5SPKFyBIHEjW7ZPKlg_3d_3d
If it complains that the survey has reached its maximum number of
responses,
please use the following link instead :
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Ro8WTM5CB0Gmrz40wq0qLg_3d_3d
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Jun 2007 at 5:17, Peter Perkins wrote:
> I certainly won't be skiping them anytime soon.
Sorry, I don't understand what "skiping" means. (Maybe this is UK English?)
> the newer TS 200ah cells are 1.5x heavier
> than the ones I bought
Do you really mean they weigh 2.5 times as much ("1.5x heavier than"), or do
you mean they weigh 50% more ("1.5x *as much*")?
There is a BIG difference between "as heavy as" and "heavier than." English
is WAY too confusing a language for science, IMO. ;-)
The former (2.5 times as much) would be quite an astounding and dismaying
increase in weight. Even the latter (50% more) is pretty substantial for a
battery type whose claim to fame is its high specific energy.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jun 2007 at 17:54, Steve Powers wrote:
> I should have bought a Rav4 when they had
> 40k miles on them and only cost $35k. That would have
> been a much much better EV and overall investment than
> any conversion.
Better EV? Almost certainly, but not a very good investment, IMO.
Rav4-EVs are as proprietary as they come. If that battery pack, or the
charger, or the motor or controller fails, then what? You don't get that
stuff at Autozone. The number of components in the field is fixed; Toyota
will never build more controllers or chargers (and it appears that Panasonic
will never build more NiMH batteries in that size, either). As the years go
by, what will you do for spares?
With a conversion EV, you can mix and match repair and replacement parts
(somewhat less possible with an AC drive, but you still only have to replace
motor and inverter, not everything under the hood).
But with a factory EV, your options are limited. You reverse engineer the
bits that need repair and fix them (assuming you can find the parts), or you
reverse engineer the system itself and figure out how to fool it into
accepting aftermarket parts. Or you rip out the whole drive system and re-
convert to a generic drive. None of these options is very attractive, IMO.
I think it's great that people are paying that kind of money for RAV4-EVs.
It shows that there's demand for EVs. But I would never buy one. (Well,
maybe if I could get it for $1-2K.)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All, I'm just a newbie and this idea twigged my enthusiasm. Tony, have
you thought about how the hydrogen and oxygen could be compressed for a
reasonable storage capacity as I understand H doesn,t have much energy for
the volume, much like our currently available batteries, although the weight
difference could be a big advantage. Excellent example of a virtually
maintenance free closed loop system!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
I've thought of some sort of rechargable fuel cell, where the O and H are
stored in tanks, and when discharged, you'd get water. Charging would
seperate the water into O and H again. It would all be self contained.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2007 3:07:39 PM
Subject: Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Idea
Check out my idea:
1. Manufacture battery to *maximize* generation of
Hydrogen when cycling, instead of maximizing
recombination as SLAs do.
2. Route the Hydrogen to the fuel cell side of the
device, which then generates more power.
3. Route waste water from fuel cell back into battery.
4. Charge battery with any excess electrical output
from fuel cell (like when's there's no other
application demand on fuel cell). Of course also
charge battery from wall as needed.
Thoughts?
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mark asked:
> 1. Manufacture battery to *maximize* generation of
> Hydrogen when cycling, instead of maximizing
> recombination as SLAs do.
>
> 2. Route the Hydrogen to the fuel cell side of the
> device, which then generates more power.
>
> 3. Route waste water from fuel cell back into battery.
>
> 4. Charge battery with any excess electrical output
> from fuel cell (like when's there's no other
> application demand on fuel cell). Of course also
> charge battery from wall as needed.
phil replied:
> This won't do any good, as it costs electrical energy
> in the first place to split (electrolysis) the hydrogen
> out. When you put it back in later, and with efficiency
> losses, you end up in the negative.
i don't think mark was proposing perpetual motion, just the idea of
capturing the hydrogen released from the battery and using a fuel cell to
process it for a little bit more power.
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> I posted some pics so you all could see what I'm
> talking about. Now you tell me (being you guys are
> the motor experts 8^o) what you think can cause an
> armature to rub on just half the shoes? Now compare
> that area to where the rear half is mounted at it's
> farthest point, right where the rubbing begins.
Great pics. The rubbing starts just about at the middle of the armature
stack, which seems like just about where I'd expect it to if it were the
shaft that were flexing.
The fact that it continues toward the comm (which confusingly is also
the DE! ;^) is odd. Remember, it doesn't matter how much the case wags,
the clearance between the armature and case will be the greatest
(unchanged) at the bearings since the bearing keeps the shaft exactly
the same distance from the case at all times. The further you get from
the bearings the more the clearance can vary, which is why I would have
expected the worst rubbing to occur midway between the bearings since
that is where the shaft and housing can move most freely relative to
each other.
It might be skewed a bit in this case due to the comm in there between
the rear bearing and the start of the armature stack possibly making the
midpoint between the bearings not correspond to the midpoint of the
armature stack, but rather somewhere nearer the rear DE, or more like
the middle of the rub marks?
I'm not the motor guy, but it seems to me that the case will be
significantly stiffer than the shaft because of its larger diameter, so
I do expect that the rubbing will have more to do with the shaft flexing
as it rotates than with the housing bending. I'm certainly not saying
this isn't due to the motor wagging - I'm just suggesting that the motor
wagging may be resulting in some significant fraction of the output
shaft torque being exerted sideways on the output shaft, which causes it
(and perhaps the case also) to flex.
Either way, tying down the rear end of the motor ought to buy John
nearly as much improvement as when he corrected the motor/pinion
alignment some time back. If that motor is wagging enough to rub like
this, I'm surprised we haven't heard reports of some mysterious
"drivetrain vibration".
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
News I get is no BMS.needed. It will charge with a Lead Acid battery
charger. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry I got confused. It's Valance with the large format batteries and Lead
Acid compatability. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Thundersky. No BMS
> News I get is no BMS.needed. It will charge with a Lead Acid battery
> charger. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
To avoid unnecessary acid coming out of the vent caps, please follow the
following directions from our web site:
"Vent caps should be kept in place and tight during vehicle operation and
battery charging."
Very Important!
"Batteries should be watered after (never before) charging unless plates are
exposed before charging. If exposed add just enough water to cover plate
tops by 1/8". Check acid level after charge. The acid level should be kept
1/4" below the bottom of the fill well in the cell cover."
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
Vice-President of Engineering
U.S. Battery Mfg. Co.
1675 Sampson Avenue
Corona, CA 92879-1889
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
T: 951-371-8090
Fax: 951-371-4671
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple,
awesomely simple, that's creativity - Charles Mingus
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Venting
If your batts are venting that heavily, doesn't it indicate they are
charging too quickly?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 8:47 PM
Subject: Battery Venting
> My Zivan charger insists on balancing the pack after _every_ charge. That
> causes a lot of acid spray to end up on top of the batteries. I was
> wondering, if 'Water Miser' caps or even an a 'pro-fill' watering system
> would reduce the spillage? Where does the 'Pro-Fill' system vent the gas?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought I should respond to some of the comments about wrecked cars.
I agree, my first choice for an EV is a vehicle with a bad engine or
trans. Been there, done that.
I have over the years probably done over 8 vehicles that have been
totaled out by insurance companies and have gotten them for a song.
I never buy something that is hurt terribly, usually avoid those that
have blood or biohazard signs on them ;^p (really happens) and usually
wind up dealing with bolt on repairs and my doing an amateur paint
job. I avoid frame damage and have only taken on one vehicle with
frame damage and it came out fine (had a shop do the frame work-was
not too bad.)
That being said, I am finding that doing this bit with a Prius is a
little different since the components--all non-electronic, are pricey.
BUT they are still easier to find and generally cheaper than a lot of
EV parts. And EV shopping has conditioned me for shopping hard and
being creative, not stupid when it comes to safety, but creative.
It is easy to take a car that has been in a simple fender bender to a
dealer body shop, having to replace bumper, attendant hardware, and
repaint and pay over $5,000. And that is without any frame damage. If
someone does not want to take that on as a DIY project, so be it, but
it is a way to get into a newer glider for not a lot of money, IF you
have some rudimentary body working skills and understand what is
wrong with the vehicle.
Insurance is high for a reason and the companies do not want to pop
for thousands of dollars and then have the client not be happy. That
happens a lot.
It is simpler to total it out and sell the car for parts and/or
rebuilding. Vehicles can be and are rebuilt every day. They are safe
if done right, just the way an EV is safe if done right.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried a water reservoir with tubes running to each cell to remote
water them? I sure would like to stick floodies under the floor where they
are tough to get to.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Thundersky
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:50:05 -0500
>I fear that by the time you're seeing the lifespan benefit
>of spending all that $ on lithium instead of getting lead,
>the lithiums readily available on the market at that time
>would cost only a fraction of this and perform better to
>boot.
>
>The principle of "slack factor" was proposed some years ago
>in the context of a computing task. Say you have to have
>a mass computing capability in place, or complete a mass
>computing task, and that solution needs to be in place in
>2 years. It might cost $20k to buy the cutting edge
>machines now. If you procrastinate, you might be able to
>buy your machines 3 months ahead of the deadline and only
>pay $5k and still get the job done on time. In fact if
>it's a huge fixed computing task you need to solve, it
>might take 6 months with today's machines but only 3
>months with those available near the deadline.
Well said. One has to be careful on the bleeding edge
of tech and why I like using the best of 20+ yr old tech,
debugged and low cost. Most of my tech is 40+ yrs old. The
composites is the same as Rutan used on his early canard
planes, Lotus used in the Elan in 68 and I used in racing
boats about the same time.
One way around this is by having a low drag EV. As EV
battery pack, drive costs are directly related to EV weight.
What this means is a 1200 lb aero EV can have 100+ mile
usable range for about $6500 plus BMS of TS li-ions. Doable.
But that would just match my lead pack at $1000 and no
bms needed. So with it's life of 4-7 yrs I figure that by
the time I need a new pack I can get a li-ion one of
probably 200 mile range for $3k or so is my plan.
The only really good thing is the mentioned $25k pack
of TS could give my EV a range of 400+ miles but would raise
the EV's price 3x's as much.
The barrier to EV's is not the batteries but the lack
of low drag gliders.
A Karman Ghia has also did as well in wthr/mile so it
would be a great platform to put Li-ions in at a reasonable
cost with 100 mile range at about gross weight. At least if
one used a platform like that they wouldn't be out so much
if it didn't work well.
Jerry Dycus
Peri, my email keeps bouncing.
>
>One could wonder if the principle won't mean that you spend
>$30k for a li-ion capacity that will last you for 7 years,
>but in 3 years the same capacity would only cost $5k
>anyways. Or worse, the original $30k cells are obsolete
>and less desirable than the new $5k technology and you toss
>them anyways to get a better capacity, peak energy delivery
>, and faster recharge capacility.
>
>One possible paradox of the slack factor could be that if
>technology continues to advance as an exponential rate, it
>NEVER makes sense to buy a long term purchase! In a way
>it always makes sense to wait for the technology to get
>better before engaging in a long term purchase before
>buying- and after you've waited a year then it continues to
>make sense to wait yet another year and so on ad
>infinitum. Sadly batt technology hasn't had the problems
>of exponential growth of the technology. We should be so
>lucky.
>
>Danny
>
>Ian Hooper wrote:
>
>> Plus (supposedly) you should get 4x the cycle life with
>> LFPs compared to lead.. time will tell here.
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to break in here, gang, but this thread is somewhat troublesome for a
couple of reasons.
First, although it's talking about batteries, it's partly off topic. The
EVDL decided several years ago to not discuss fuel cell vehicles.
Second, it effectively tips into the area of over-unity and perpetual motion
devices, another area that we've long since agreed to avoid. The physics of
the idea aren't supportable, as some responses have tried to make clear.
I wouldn't have said anything, but the thread is beginning to take up a
significant amount of list bandwidth. Please take it to private email if
you'd like to discuss it further.
Thanks for your understanding!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Jun 2007 at 12:31, (-Phil-) wrote:
> In addition, I think these are probably somewhat obvious, but for a
> discussion list, I think the "reply_goes_to_list" should be set to "this
> list". I also usually set "personalize" to "yes" (not Full!).
Thanks for that comment. I considered adding that question to the survey,
but it's not an issue that lends itself very well to a one-page description.
Maybe I should try, though; it's a significant matter.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
given the weight and power of their motor it seems they are choosing the
right technology with getting their power through the voltage rather
than the current by going high rpm (phase velocity). seemingly a pure
win win other than perhaps a little higher gear ratio needed. am I
understanding that right or is there more to it?
is high rpm AC the certain way forward?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that marketing guys tend to say things in a way that they
see it fit. Who cares about the truth.
BMS is not necessary for LFP cells. It's hard, but not impossible, to
get them burst in flames. If that's the only criteria you're looking
for. Go ahead with plain cells.
BMS is needed to get the lifetime of cell strings near to individual
cell life. So value for your money.
Balancing, whole system capacity estimation and SOH are required. Aren't
those two last things just what you wan't to see on the dash ? An
accurate fuel cauge and next service.
It is possible to have cells in a perfect voltage balance for many
cycles if you just cycle the cells between 30 and 70 % SOC and keep them
in similar enough temperature. This is possible if you have carefully
selected cells in same pack.
If you visit frequently in 0-30% SOC region you will see the balance
drift away. Cycle after cycle.
The BMS cost and system development are both getting to better direction.
One really big thing is to get the whole manufacturing process in speed.
A constant and stable process.
Before we are there we need to get volumes up. Big volume customers are
priority. Grass root movement has not been forgot, but first things first.
Material cost have got higher (copper, Lithium, etc.) but also the
manufacturing methods have been improving a lot. We are going for fully
automatic production line in Shenzhen. Even new cell types are being
tested in TS labs. All Lion tech today is still far cry from their
theoretical capabilities. So lot's of work to do.
-Jukka
Lawrence Rhodes kirjoitti:
Sorry I got confused. It's Valance with the large format batteries and Lead
Acid compatability. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Thundersky. No BMS
News I get is no BMS.needed. It will charge with a Lead Acid battery
charger. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I answered your survey and just want say please don't go security and
privacy crazy.
The reason we join lists is because we want to be able to publicly
converse with a whole group of people using the email we use to converse
on the list.
If we have to jump through hoops because someone is trying to protect
that email address it just becomes no longer worth it to be on mail
lists.
Their openess is their effectiveness.
People who are so worried about spam or losing one emial adress to
spammers shouldn't join email lists.
And anyone smart always keeps one email completely private anyway.
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 12:38 pm, David Roden wrote:
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
> I feel bad for all those who traveled so far only to
> not be able to
> race. The l-o-n-g trek cross-country from the left
> coast in Oregon
> across the Rockies, through the great plains states
> and into Illinois
> (repeat backwards), all the while being stuck in a
> tight truck cab with
> two insane people...all this to arrive at what I
> deemed the 'Anti-EV
> Vortex'...and to have the race canceled...is still
> making me tired.
Hey John, That statement alone indicates that you are
one of the insane! I'll leave it to the good
judgements of the people to choose who the other one
was, and it's not me for those who want a clue cause
I'm the evil one 8^P
> Mods to the Siamese 8 are coming along nicely. The
> big change is my
> decision to go from 10 degrees advance to 15 degrees
> for more top end hp
> and much greater arc-fighting capability. A new rear
> motor cross-bracing
> aluminum mount is planned to help securely keep the
> motor's output end
> from 'wagging'.
Being in fact that I really have no true idea of
what's going on and only "know" that the rubbing
starts where the last mount holes are located, I'd say
mounting the drive end sure can't hurt. I'll add some
to Rodgers comments tonight when I have more time.
With a more advanced timing on the
> motor sections, we'll
> probably loose a bit of off-line power, but we've
> got an abundance of
> that as it is :-) I predict the timing advance
> alone will be good for 3
> more mph through the traps, and an 11.8-11.9 @110
> mph without turning up
> the pack past the 1000 battery amps that we ran at
> in March, when the
> car ran a couple of 12.1 ETs at near 107 mph. Once
> an 11-anything is in
> the bag, the battery amps will get tweaked up to
> 1200 amps and we'll see
> what happens :-)
Ohhhh how I hate you!
> Of course, bigger changes are in store for July's
> Wayland Invitational
> III. Barring any motor problems to deal with after
> the June 22nd runs,
> the car gets torn down again in preparation for the
> loaner lithium pack.
> The mighty Genesis pack will be lovingly removed and
> mounts created in
> the sunken trunk floor battery well, to accept
> Bill's 'spare' A123
> pack....
This only amplifies my feelings, in case you wondered!
You do realize that at some point you're gonna rip
your car in half right? Okay just checking 8^P
Okay back to pressing your armatures on. First ones
on (that's the bitch one 8^) so I'm kinda down hill on
the armature area of things. Hey back off I had to
figuer out how to dip shaftless armatures and not fill
the shaft hole with dip!
> must be tough to only have one spare lithium
> pack!
Diffine tough? Cause I diffine tough as working with
people like you 8^P I hadn't seen John on my side of
the mountain in months, since getting the motors from
him he's been here like 4 times, LMAO! Yeah, yeah go
build your motors and stop screwing off, hey EVen
motor guys get to take a break every so often 8^P
Being there's no rest for the wicked, there are some
drawbacks to being the evil twin! although I do enjoy
the flipping of crap part. 8^)
* *
* *
* *
Flip* *Wayland
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Jun 2007 at 16:54, David Roden wrote:
> > In addition, I think these are probably somewhat obvious, but for a
> > discussion list, I think the "reply_goes_to_list" should be set to "this
> > list". I also usually set "personalize" to "yes" (not Full!).
I decided to add the question to the survey, though it's a bit more complex
than the way I described it. If you'd like to respond to this question, you
can do so, even if you've already taken the survey.
Before responding, you may wish to read the pro and con arguments at the
links below. (Geekiness warning : these are a bit technical.)
Pro : http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml
Con : http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Take the survey here :
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=8Lxd5SPKFyBIHEjW7ZPKlg_3d_3d
If Surveymonkey complains that the survey has reached its maximum number of
responses (Cheapskate that I am, I have a free account, which limits the
total number), please use the following link instead :
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Ro8WTM5CB0Gmrz40wq0qLg_3d_3d
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 7, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
What about these types of motors on eBay?
250125996676
I've got a similar motor that's 600 watts on my bike. I believe you
can drive these with 36V too for more power. Built in controller!
300 watts is well under 1 HP. 9 HP would be around 7000 watts.
Somewhere the power curves should be available for the ICE motors
that are being used. If they are operated wide open throttle then the
power curves plus determining the rpm they are being operated at
would provide a very good idea how much power is actually required.
RPM and actual power being used would really help nail down the size
of electric motor needed.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are a number of automatic watering systems available for RE
battery systems -- a T-105 of L-16 battery is much the same as a
T-145, wateringwize, so I imagine you could make them work for that
too.
On 6/8/07, Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone tried a water reservoir with tubes running to each cell to remote
water them? I sure would like to stick floodies under the floor where they
are tough to get to.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
given the weight and power of their motor it seems they are choosing the
right technology with getting their power through the voltage rather
than the current by going high rpm (phase velocity). seemingly a pure
win win other than perhaps a little higher gear ratio needed. am I
understanding that right or is there more to it?
is high rpm AC the certain way forward?
--- End Message ---
