EV Digest 6893
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New Zillch Controller
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV Library, What Books Would You Recommend?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Good news: Dan, we have your domain name
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Library, What Books Would You Recommend?
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Teenager with EV's on the brain
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, for now.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a
newly formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and
have your discussions there.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Generator as a limp home device. Interesting. If you just cabled the
output of the generator to the motor through a large bridge rectifier, and
hooked the gas pedal to the generator throttle, you could pretty much bypass
everything maybe?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "john fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Maybe you can think of it this way:
the genset is a supplier of Kw just like a battery.
They typically run for a few hours on the standard tank, or 20+ on
propane.
If a 200 lb genset produces a steady 4Kw for 6 hours, and costs about
$1000, what kind of batteries can you get for that weight/cost?
In my case, I am thinking many days I'd use no genset at all, but
sometimes it would be a range extender or even a limp-home device.
They do use a shocking amount of fuel for their power rating - even the
diesels. The marine ones seem to be much better, but they are too heavy
and expensive. A transplanted motor might do much better on fuel, possibly
a good scooter engine would do. That theory remains to be tested.
John
Marty Hewes wrote:
In order to minimize weight, I'd go the other way around. How many kWh
will I come up short in making the journey without a generator. How much
time should it take to complete the trip. How big of a generator do I
need to make up the difference in kWh in that time?
If you try to size the generator to run the car after the battery is
down, it's a whole lot bigger and heavier than if you just use it to
supply part of the power required the whole way, reduce the draw on the
batteries (which makes them more efficient), and delay the point where
the battery is kaput to the time you arrive back home.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this list is that it's in
Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If I'd wanted to use a
forum I would have went looking for an EV forum. If You want to use a
forum, go find one.
I'm sure others will agree with me although I do recognize that some
will want to surf to it.
Trot, the opinionated, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a newly
formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
Dan
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might be easier to just couple the output of the generator directly
to the battery pack with the rectifier. That way the controller still
runs the motor and all of the safetys are in tact. 120VAC rectifies to
about 160 volts DC. As long as you current limit the output of the
generator so you don't blow the gensets circuit breaker you could get a
fairly good boost.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:55
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Generator as a limp home device. Interesting. If you just cabled the
output of the generator to the motor through a large bridge rectifier,
and hooked the gas pedal to the generator throttle, you could pretty
much bypass everything maybe?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "john fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
> Maybe you can think of it this way:
>
> the genset is a supplier of Kw just like a battery.
> They typically run for a few hours on the standard tank, or 20+ on
> propane.
> If a 200 lb genset produces a steady 4Kw for 6 hours, and costs about
> $1000, what kind of batteries can you get for that weight/cost?
>
> In my case, I am thinking many days I'd use no genset at all, but
> sometimes it would be a range extender or even a limp-home device.
>
> They do use a shocking amount of fuel for their power rating - even
the
> diesels. The marine ones seem to be much better, but they are too
heavy
> and expensive. A transplanted motor might do much better on fuel,
possibly
> a good scooter engine would do. That theory remains to be tested.
>
> John
>
> Marty Hewes wrote:
>> In order to minimize weight, I'd go the other way around. How many
kWh
>> will I come up short in making the journey without a generator. How
much
>> time should it take to complete the trip. How big of a generator do
I
>> need to make up the difference in kWh in that time?
>>
>> If you try to size the generator to run the car after the battery is
>> down, it's a whole lot bigger and heavier than if you just use it to
>> supply part of the power required the whole way, reduce the draw on
the
>> batteries (which makes them more efficient), and delay the point
where
>> the battery is kaput to the time you arrive back home.
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a
newly formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be
intererested.
We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and
have your discussions there.
I would hope they would appreciate you not speaking for them
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so it only produces 50 times as much pollution as an SUV.
> As I recall, I already specified propane. I believe it burns pretty
> cleanly, maybe cleaner than a coal fired electric plant, although not Bio
> neutral, but either is coal. I'm not talking the average Briggs and
> Stratton
> with a stone age $5 carb runningthe middle easts finest.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
>
>
>> park. But to get to my parents place and back, if I started the
>> generator
>> when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could probably use
>> a
>> generator well less than 5kW and still make the trip (since it's
>> charging
>> while I'm parked there and stopped at lights).
>
> This is true, and with the typical 5kw generator you'd only produce 200
> times as much pollution as driving a Hummer for the same distance. If
> you're comfortable with that, then go for it.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eeeek! Joe you responded (seriously) to my satire about Ot's "Troll."
But the response and the information you presented is great.
On a personal level I can relate to "cheaply" made controllers. All
from China, BTW. I have a business called, "ElectroScooterWorks".
This is actually no joke. I repair electric scooters and bikes.
Mostly Razors, Curries, Blade-Zs etc for kids and I repair electric
bikes and scooters for people who don't have a car and use them as
their prime source of transportation. I've repaired well over 250
scooters now and about 1/3 of the work is controller replacement.
There are literally hundreds of different 24-36 volt controllers made
out there for electric scooters. And it doesn't take much for them to
fry. Alot of it is cheap, Chinese made stuff. They retail for $35.00
to $75.00 but my suppliers sell them to me for as cheap as $15.00.
It's not unusual for me to replace a dead controller or throttle with
another dead one.
An educated EVer, building a highway-capable EV, would be wise to
stay away from cheap knock offs and from folks who don't know what
they are doing. But I have to give the Chinese credit. They can
pretty much take anything and mass produce it on a huge scale at
cheap prices. Fortunately, I haven't seen any cheap high voltage
controllers coming out of China yet.
Just an FYI, they import up to 20 container loads of cheap electric
scooters on our shores every day. We call them 30-30 scooters. They
last 30 days or 30 hours before they break.
On the downside it hurts EVs. Because the junk made out there damages
the cause we are trying to promote.
The electric scooter market has already been damaged. There is just
so much low-quality stuff made out there. I work on a ton of scooters
that don't even have a name. It's all generic Chinese junk. I hope
this type of business operation doesn't filter on up to road-going
EVs. It's a big concern for me and should be a concern for the EV
movement. And a reason people need to respect the intellectual
property rights of guys like Otmar and Rich. God forbid Zilla knock-
offs from the Far East begin invading our shores. So I hope we just
don't get Zillched.
Fortunately, we already have high quality EVs and EV components made
here in the USA thanks to Ot, Rich and other EV pioneers. The
standard of quality, ingenuity and craftsmanship has already been set.
Chip Gribben
aka "Dan Crankenstien"
http://www.electroscooterworks.com
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 14, 2007 4:59:30 AM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
Dan;
I think you are onto something big here.
Yes, a feature packed, reliable and powerful controller does cost a
lot.
You can reduce the costs by:
1. Dropping features,
2. Using fewer and cheaper components,
3. Derating the capabilities, and
4. Not offering any warrantee or installation support.
To build a cheap controller, you do not want to build anything that
looks
like the Zilla. There are way too many parts, too many assembly
operations,
too many features that need to be tested, too many interfaces, too
much data
coming out, and too much instruction needed to allow someone to
install it
in their vehicle.
To build a cheap controller, you need to use as few parts as
possible, use
as few connections as possible, reduce the feature set to a bare
minimum,
produce a set of instructions that can be followed by the average
hobbyist
using common household tools, and have the customer build the
controllers so
that you have no customer support or manufacturing liability issues.
Otmar spends $20000 on transistors so he knows they match and they
will work
in parallel. If you use one big transistor, you won't need to match
transistors since you only use one.
The Radio Shack IRF510 transistors (276-2072 @ $1.99) are rated at
only 3
amps at 60 volts. That is not big enough to run a very big motor.
The IRF640
(18 amps at 200 V) that they formerly stocked had some potential.
You need
bigger transistors. Forget about Radio Shack as a power parts source.
You are right. The hairball has too many features for your design. You
should drop it. You don't need it. The Curtis and the power wheels
designs
have startup current surge problems. You need to make sure the
customer
understands that he needs to deal with this problem, since your
design will
have reliability issues (just like Curtis and Power Wheels) if the
customer
does not deal with it. You can cut costs by having the customer take
responsibility for your lack of a precharge controller. Then again,
you may
want to design a precharge controller that is external to the
controller and
is sold separately. That would look like a hairball and does not
fit your
plan.
You are right again about the PFC being complex. There are a lot of
features
packed into that box. You can cut costs by eliminating features.
The box can
be reduced in size if the current capability is reduced. Many users
rarely
use the full current capability of those chargers for very long.
Many users
are perfectly content to let their EV charge overnight. They don't
need a
fast charger or a versatile input voltage capability. High power
factor is
only needed to get more watts out of the wall, keep the wiring cool
and keep
the circuit breaker happy at high power. If you never ask for high
power or
fast charging, these features are wasted.
If you want pictures of the inside of a PFC-20 charger, they have
been at
the following location since January 2001:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc20rts.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc2012.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc2011.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc20ls.jpg
Rich is currently shipping Rev 8 chargers therefore these Rev 2
photos are 6
revisions and 7 years out of date. The design has not changed much
except
for improved parts being installed as they became available.
The toughest part of building a battery charger is determining when
to turn
the current down or turn it off. You could put two settings on your
charger:
Bulk and equalize. You could have the customer manually switch
between the
two settings on the base model. You could call it an automatic
charger if
the switch position changed itself at a preset time or voltage
level so that
the customer did not need to watch the charger all night waiting
for the
proper moment to throw the switch. Maybe the switch adds too much
to the
cost and no one would buy the more expensive model.
Is there a market for "Cheap EV Parts"? Someone needs to wade into the
market with an appropriate line of components and see if they can
develop a
good customer base. Some people on this list say there is no market
for
cheap parts. I believe there is a market. Is there money in that
market? I
don't know. You are a good person to find out. If you believe you
can break
even using this business plan, go for it and we will be looking for
cheaper
parts being available in the future.
If you want to work this business plan, you should assemble a
product team,
design some products, build the products and market the products to
the
world. If you have a reasonable product at a reasonable price with
reasonable service, then you should succeed in your effort and at
least
break even at the end of the year. Otmar, Damen, Russ, Victor, and
Rich have
done it. Therefore you have an opportunity to do it, too.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:37 AM
Subject: New Zillch Controller
I'm new to EVs. My name is Dan Crankenstein.
EV controllers are too expensive. So I have a plan to make a new
controller called the "Zillch". It's called the "Zillch" because it
won't cost that much to make.
I can make them cheaper but I need your help. If you have a Zilla
controller can you crack it open and take some pictures of it for me?
I'm too cheap to buy one myself. On Otmar's blog he says he's paying
$20,000 for transistors. Now hold on there, that's way too much. I
can get a whole bunch of them for $20.00 at Radio Shack. I think I
have enough Radio Shack points accumulated now for a $5.00 coupon
this month.
My new "Zillch" controller won't have a "Hairball." First of all, it
sounds like something the cat coughed up. And having a hairball is
like having a transmission in an EV - you don't need one. So my
controller won't have this "hairball" thing. That will make it
cheaper. The Curtis controller didn't have a "Hairball". My nephew's
Power Wheels doesn't have a hairball.
So that's the plan for the new "Zillch" controller.
Also, I left a message on Rich Rudman's voicemail and offered him my
advice on chargers but he won't call back. So if anyone has a PFC
charger I need you to open those up and take some pictures for me.
PFC sounds "Pretty Fricken Complex" so I'm naming my charger "PFA"
for "Pretty Fricken Affordable." And my charger will be smaller and
will use smaller wiring to make it lighter.
Who's with me? Just send your photos to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We'll
worry about the "Intellectual Property Rights" thing -whatever that
means - later on. Right now the most intellectual thing to do is make
cheap EV parts.
And with my new EV parts I'll throw in a free fire extinguisher. I
bet Otmar and Rich won't offer those for free.
Thanks,
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The thing we're probably not looking at enough is the whole picture.
>
> Let's say 90% of my driving is 10 miles per day. No problem with a
> smallish
> battery pack.
> 9% is 30 miles of errands. Probably no problem with a decent pack
> 1% is 160 miles.
Hmm, there are 365 days in a year. 1% of 365 is 3.65, call it 4 days. 4
days rental on a car is what, $150?
> First, I could stack in a bunch of batteries. My Jeep project is at 2000
> lbs with a 4300 lb Gross weight. If I actually put in 2300 lbs of
> batteries, I'd get some range, but it would take more kW to move it.
> But in the other 99% of my driving, that added weight will use more
> electricity, every day. The production of that extra electricity is not
> totally clean. The production and eventual disposal of those extra
> batteries is not totally clean. I really don't think it's ecologically
> sound to design for significantly more range than you need most of the
> time
> (assuming a reasonable DOD).
>
> I could keep a gasser around for 1% of my driving. The manufacturing and
> eventual scrapping of another car that will mostly sit and rot in my
> driveway is not without environmental impact.
>
> I could rent a gasser for long trips. That might make some sense, but
> does
> a gasser really pollute less and consume less fuel than an EV and a good
> small generator? I think it depends on the range of the EV without the
> generator, and the length of the trip.
>
> I could pull a small generator on a trailer for that 1% of the time I need
> it. Virtually no downside when I don't use it.
>
> More comments below:
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:58 PM
>> Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
>>
>
>> Marty Hewes wrote:
>>
>> > But to get to my parents place and back, if I
>> > started the generator
>> > when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could
>> > probably use a generator well less than 5kW and still make
>> > the trip (since it's charging while I'm parked there and
>> > stopped at lights).
>>
>> Something that hasn't come up yet in this iteration of the range
>> extender discussion is that if the genset is charging while you are
>> stopped at lights, etc., then you need to consider the acceptability of
>> the noise and vibration, etc. of the genset running possibly flat out
>> essentially the entire trip.
>
> I'm thinking it'd be on a trailer, so vibration is no big deal. Some
> generators are noisy, but they don't have to be. That is a consideration.
> What concerns me is I'd like air cooled for reduced weight, but I think
> they
> tend to be noisier.
>
>> Unless you spend much of the time stopped
>> the genset is unlikely to put much charge into the batteries (a 2min
>> stop will only allow about 0.6Ah into the battery at 20A, and anytime
>> the vehicle is in motion the genset output will largely or entirely go
>> toward offsetting the load rather than charging the battery).
>
> That was my intent, just augment the battery current while moving, which
> should also reduce the current draw on the batteries enough to
> significantly
> improve the number of kWh they can contribute. Do a little charging
> during
> stops and deceleration, and while parked at the destination if no
> opportunity outlet presents itself. As you pointed out, the amount of
> recharge gained during the duration of a stop light might not be worth the
> noise.
>
>> This is particularly a consideration if you are not willing to put the
>> genset on a trailer instead of in the vehicle somewhere (I seem to
>> recall the trailer option being noted as unacceptable).
>
> Personally, I'd have it on a trailer, half the reason I'd do this is so
> that
> I could also use it either at the house or the shop (4 miles apart) for
> building power in case of a power failure, in which case I may not want to
> be the same place it is.
>
>> You also need to consider how you are going to connect the generator to
>> the battery. Most gensets provide an AC output, and probably the
>> slickest way to adapt this to the battery pack is to put one of Rich's
>> PFC chargers between the two. Set the current knob for the desired
>> amount of assistance and leave the voltage as for a normal charge.
>> Assuming a typical pack voltage in the ballpark of 120V, a PFC20 would
>> let you run the genset at a little over 50% output; a PFC50 (throttled
>> back) would let you run it flat out. (Many gensets aren't expected to be
>> run flat out for extended periods and will not last long used this way.)
>
> Personally, I like the idea of using a considerably bigger generator than
> necessary, and keeping it 50% output or less. I'm thinking of maybe a
> small
> Honda or Subaru (lower aerodynamic profile) car motor loafing along at
> around 1800 RPM, with a belt drive running one of those Harbor Freight
> 10kW
> heads at 3600 RPM putting out around 5kW. Use the car computer for full
> emissions control, with a decent muffler on it. It ought to be quiet, and
> last forever. I haven't given a lot of thought to the actual charger yet.
>
>> The genset takes up space and payload in the EV, reducing the amount of
>> battery you can carry. Depending on the distance you need to go, the
>> inherent range of the vehicle, and how much energy it consumes, a 5kW
>> genset might well get you there. Only you can decide if the noise and
>> vibration that your otherwise silent EV gains from the onboard genset is
>> an acceptable compromise.
>
> Agreed. For my use, I'd just use it occasionally to reduce dependance on
> a
> huge battery pack or a gasser for my somewhat longer drives. The rest of
> the time, I don't want to haul it. If I had an S10, I'd be tempted to put
> it on a palette and drop it in the bed, but in my Jeep project, no way. I
> still think if the intent is to drive all day, it makes no sense.
>
> Marty
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is quite retarded. it
lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not every post has to be
a complete record of all that went before. it lacks the features like
embedded pictures. potentially better search. an always available record
no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents stagnant.
Dan
TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this list is that it's in
Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If I'd wanted to use a
forum I would have went looking for an EV forum. If You want to use a
forum, go find one.
I'm sure others will agree with me although I do recognize that some
will want to surf to it.
Trot, the opinionated, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a newly
formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe you should use gmail. Better search and conversation view, so
you can see every post on the specified topic.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is quite retarded. it
lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not every post has to be
a complete record of all that went before. it lacks the features like
embedded pictures. potentially better search. an always available record
no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents stagnant.
Dan
TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this list is that it's in
> Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If I'd wanted to use a
> forum I would have went looking for an EV forum. If You want to use a
> forum, go find one.
>
> I'm sure others will agree with me although I do recognize that some
> will want to surf to it.
>
> Trot, the opinionated, fox...
>
> On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
>> can someone set that up?
>>
>> it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a newly
>> formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
>>
>> Dan
>
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Trot> There are frequently questions asked that no answers are posted to
Trot> the list. Also frequently, I forget to "reply to all" because
Trot> it's the Only list I know of that's setup that way. Every other
Trot> list I am on, or have been on, is setup to reply to list normally.
Maybe it's a culture thing. Long time computer nerds like me (I've been
noodling around the Internet since the mid-80's) are used to the mode I
prefer. People who are less computer savvy (or at least less tuned in to
technical computer discussions) prefer the scheme set up on this list.
Trot> So, I vote to leave it the way it is. Here's hoping Dan cares
Trot> what I think. } ; ]
I didn't think we were voting. I was just voicing my opinion.
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I picked up an interesting book from Amazon. "Common sense not required" by
Evan Boberg.
Evan is apparently a dis-allusioned or even disgruntled ex-Jeep-Chrysler
engineer. He wouldn't overlook the corporate politics and stupidity, spoke
up, and got shuffled off to the obscure project sidelines, much like I did
:). As they say, familiarity breeds contempt. His writing is a bit of a
rant, some Dilbert type poking fun at large organizations (with a lot of
accuracy and insight among the ranting), and some interesting insight into
Chrysler's work on EV's, he was one of the principle engineers on the
projects. He's pretty negative about conventional hybrids, but he has some
good things to say about BEV. Apparently Chrysler's take on BEV was that
customers wouldn't buy a car that has a range limit and needs to spend that
much time getting charged. He does do a little dreaming about carpool lanes
with free electricity to charge while commuting, so to a small extent he's
one of us. He's also a bit of a Rushie type in denial of the effects of
climate change, as it might hinder his freedom to tear up the environment
with his motorized toys, but aside from that, I found it an interesting
read. Just be prepared to filter the spite and predjudice from the fact.
It's not a book on EV's, but there is some good information in there about
the way Chrysler saw EV technology. I also wish I read it 25 years ago
before I attempted a long term career in a company that grew from
entreprenurial to beaurocracy.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: EV Library, What Books Would You Recommend?
Hi folks,
I am putting together a long overdue update for the So You Want To Build
and EV page, and it occurred to me that rather than fumble about trying to
find what books I should recommend, I should just ask the EVDL.
Currently the list is:
Convert It by Mike Brown
Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant
The New Electric Vehicles by Michael Hackleman
The Complete Book of Electric Vehicles by Sheldon Shacket
How to Convert to an Electric Car by Ted Lucas.
I know that there are a lot that should be added, some how to, some why
to, and some just history.
What would you recommend be suggest to new folks interested in getting
into EVs?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>>stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
>>can someone set that up?
>>
>>it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a
>>newly formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be
>> intererested.
>
> We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and
> have your discussions there.
>
LOL. I normally point out all of the problems with moving this list to a
web format and all of the failed attempts to do it in the past.
But I think I agree with you John, he should start his own list and we
could point all future antisocial nuisances towards it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>an email based forum is quite retarded.
Please find a web forum and leave this list then?
I don't want to speak for others on the list, but I
certainly would appreciate you finding a web forum.
Besides, you pretty much know more than anybody on
this list, so it's not really benefiting you?
Maybe you can be courteous and send us note when your
new control is finished, I'm sure there would be many
customers waiting in line for this low cost Zilla
knock off.
--- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is
> quite retarded. it
> lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not
> every post has to be
> a complete record of all that went before. it lacks
> the features like
> embedded pictures. potentially better search. an
> always available record
> no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
>
> mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents
> stagnant.
>
> Dan
>
> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> > Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this
> list is that it's in
> > Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If
> I'd wanted to use a
> > forum I would have went looking for an EV forum.
> If You want to use a
> > forum, go find one.
> >
> > I'm sure others will agree with me although I do
> recognize that some
> > will want to surf to it.
> >
> > Trot, the opinionated, fox...
> >
> > On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> stating the obvious, this should be a webbased
> forum
> >> can someone set that up?
> >>
> >> it should also be augmented with live (logged)
> chat and there is a newly
> >> formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should
> anyone be intererested.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup. $600 bucks I could have put toward a generator that would double as a
power fail backup for the house and business, and a BEV towing a generator
to extend range would still probably generate less CO2 than a rental within
a reasonable range. The BEV doesn't get overweight from carrying batteries
I don't need 99% of the time, and use more electricity during that time
because of the added weight.
Then there is the issue I mentioned earlier. If the goal is to get your EV
to a club meeting, race, show or parade, driving a rental doesn't help much.
I assume that is the purpose of a pusher also. You're really comparing
against towing or trailering with a much heavier setup.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
The thing we're probably not looking at enough is the whole picture.
Let's say 90% of my driving is 10 miles per day. No problem with a
smallish
battery pack.
9% is 30 miles of errands. Probably no problem with a decent pack
1% is 160 miles.
Hmm, there are 365 days in a year. 1% of 365 is 3.65, call it 4 days. 4
days rental on a car is what, $150?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 04:22:18PM +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is quite retarded. it
> lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not every post has to be
> a complete record of all that went before. it lacks the features like
> embedded pictures. potentially better search. an always available record
> no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
>
> mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents stagnant.
>
so please unsubscribe yourself and let the rest of us here alone.
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://ev.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, guys (and gals, too); just block him as a sender in all of your e-mail
software - if he can't be heard, then he can't bother us. I already have
blocked him.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a newly
formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and have
your discussions there.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2007-06-14 at 16:12 +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> > We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and
> > have your discussions there.
> >
> I would hope they would appreciate you not speaking for them
>
Dan,
I just checked, thought I'd let you know, you're in luck. My DNS
registrar says "EVSOCIOPATH.ORG is available".
Hurry, go register and build your forum website, before someone else
beats you to it.
And then please stop posting to this inferior email list.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
??? Um, that was $150 for FOUR days, not per day, and that is a high
estimate. I usually pay around $700 a month to rent a car when traveling,
and that includes insurance.
> Yup. $600 bucks I could have put toward a generator that would double as
> a
> power fail backup for the house and business, and a BEV towing a generator
> to extend range would still probably generate less CO2 than a rental
> within
> a reasonable range. The BEV doesn't get overweight from carrying
> batteries
> I don't need 99% of the time, and use more electricity during that time
> because of the added weight.
>
> Then there is the issue I mentioned earlier. If the goal is to get your
> EV
> to a club meeting, race, show or parade, driving a rental doesn't help
> much.
> I assume that is the purpose of a pusher also. You're really comparing
> against towing or trailering with a much heavier setup.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
>
>
>
>> The thing we're probably not looking at enough is the whole picture.
>>
>> Let's say 90% of my driving is 10 miles per day. No problem with a
>> smallish
>> battery pack.
>> 9% is 30 miles of errands. Probably no problem with a decent pack
>> 1% is 160 miles.
>
> Hmm, there are 365 days in a year. 1% of 365 is 3.65, call it 4 days. 4
> days rental on a car is what, $150?
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
. . . .
I know that there are a lot that should be added, some how to, some
why to, and some just history.
*********************************
Yesterday I received 'The Car that Could". After reading five chapters
I recommend it to all EVers.
"The Car That Could. The Inside Story of GM's Revolutionary Electric
Vehicle" by Michael Shnayerson.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Okay, I've been interested in alternative fuel vehicles for some time
> now, and would like to finally commit to building an EV. Despite being
> 17 and a girl, I am not a total moron.
Not so unusual, there are a several young ladies on this list. There used
to be (still is?) an all girl EV racing team.
> this is a thoroughly achievable goal, theoretically . Seeing as how I
> lack funding, I figured that there were three possible paths to take:
> meth lab, prostitution, or a school team.
You forgot: Stripping, more respectable than prostitution and typically
pays better. Not to mention the less socially accepable professions like:
Dictator, Lawyer, Postal employee, etc. :-)
> Now, I realize that the
> school team suggestion sounds absurd, but it's not about getting money
> from the school, it's about getting credibility from being backed by a
> community organization, so that people will believe they are
> sponsoring something, rather than just giving things to some hack
> group of teenagers. Anyways, I need to pitch this idea to my school,
> and was wondering if any of you had any resources for that, existing
> proposals, etc.
There used to be some school EV racing a few years back, there is also the
on going Solar Bike Rayce
http://www.solarbike.org
They have some suggestions on their site about getting sponsors, etc.
You might also consider trying to start some kind of competition among all
the local schools.
> Also, seeing as how the Tour De Sol is now defunct, and the EV
> Challenge folks seem to have considerately dropped off the face of the
> planet(I guess I shouldn't have expected much from them anyways, I am
> from Michigan, which is decidedly north of south.), are there any EV
> competitions around? The school would want to have more than an EV
The above mention solar bike rayce. You might also look into
Electrathons. These are small EVs that race on enclosed courses (usually
setup in a parking lot) to see who can go the farthest on about 64 lbs
worth of Lead-Acid batteries. It's pretty popular because they don't have
to cost a lot.
Electric drag racing is also getting popular.
http://www.nedra.com
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an article in today's Wall Street Journal stating that Toyota has
decided not to use a lithium-ion battery in its next generation Prius whose
launch was scheduled for the fall of 2008. Instead they say they will use a
more advanced version of the nickel metal hydride battery presently in use.
The lithium-ion battery technology they refer to uses lithium cobalt oxide,
not the same as the lithium battery produced by A123. There is mention that
Toyota has not given up on lithium-ion technology. There is mention that they
have been testing a Prius equipped with lithium-ion technology that they still
consider experimental, presumably the more advanced lithium iron phosphate
chemistry similar too or perhaps provided by A123.
Lawson Huntley
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
