EV Digest 6896
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Voltage Across Contacts
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter & Kyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: How the Prius Works
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Subscriber
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV achilles' heel
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) thundersky cells (was: new subscriber)
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) TS cell exchange... WAS:Re: New Subscriber
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV achilles' heel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: How the Prius Works
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: How the Prius Works
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Question about DMV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: How the Prius Works
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Question about DMV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In normal operation - no.
But if the switch fails or is not operated properly....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Voltage Across Contacts
In the diagram below, will there ever be 144V across the open K1 relay
contacts if the relay is always closed before switch S1 is closed, and the
switch is always opened before the relay is opened?
144V 0V
+ +
| |
+ + |
K1 / \ S1
+ |
| |
+-------- DVM -------+
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know for sure what the fuel consumption is for a 30Kw diesel
genset running at its' most economical revs? We should be able to calculate
consumption per Kwh and compare to fuel consumption for a conventional
vehicle.
BTW has anyone played with turning a small turbocharger into an engine for
connecting to a generator. The efficiency should be better running at ideal
revs than a piston engine and it would be able to run on waste oil. A 30Kw
turbo engine will be small and could run on multiple
fuels(LPG,biodiesel,ethanol), It would make for a light trailer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
Yup. $600 bucks I could have put toward a generator that would double as
a power fail backup for the house and business, and a BEV towing a
generator to extend range would still probably generate less CO2 than a
rental within a reasonable range. The BEV doesn't get overweight from
carrying batteries I don't need 99% of the time, and use more electricity
during that time because of the added weight.
Then there is the issue I mentioned earlier. If the goal is to get your
EV to a club meeting, race, show or parade, driving a rental doesn't help
much. I assume that is the purpose of a pusher also. You're really
comparing against towing or trailering with a much heavier setup.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
The thing we're probably not looking at enough is the whole picture.
Let's say 90% of my driving is 10 miles per day. No problem with a
smallish
battery pack.
9% is 30 miles of errands. Probably no problem with a decent pack
1% is 160 miles.
Hmm, there are 365 days in a year. 1% of 365 is 3.65, call it 4 days. 4
days rental on a car is what, $150?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole EV
concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week with
the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the small
ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line? hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a nice
small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for charging
some where and continue without it or you can just keep dragging it
along untile reached the destiation. You could still use the oh-so-old
lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one and
folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies
of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design
Jeff> and operation. Here's one
Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Skip> Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more
skip> batteries or another motor + some extra batteries.
i've been wondering the exact same thing today.
if, as someone said earlier, the prius will run 11 miles on batteries alone,
we know that the motor has enough power to run the car. why not remove the
ICE and replace it with an equal weight in batteries?
surely someone could design a battery pack that would replace the ICE and be
able to work in conjunction with the existing pack to increase the overall
range to 30 miles or more.
has anyone tried building a pure BEV honda insight? can the insight's
supplemental motor move the car on its own?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have explained to my self the cycle as follows:
"When I have charged the amount of energy taken in previous discharge."
On the cycler LFP-30 cell is being discharged to 2V with 1C. Then
charged with 1C to 4,3V. Then repeated the same sequence. Well stop when
the cell does not accept any charge anymore. Or if the dicharging
becomes impossible (cell drops instantly to 0V or something)
Shallow cycles are less than 10% DOD + charged back from any point of SOC.
Cycle the cell in 50% SOC and you'll have much longer life than in 90%
SOC. That's how they work. (At least LCPs)
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
jukka> I have the 1000th cycle just coming up with LFP-30 cell on
jukka> tester.
That's something I've been meaning to ask. What constitutes a cycle? Any
time you plug in the charger? Or is there some minimum amount of discharge
required before you consider a trip to the wall outlet a cycle?
Thx,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's do some math.
Say you have an EV with economy of 300wh/mile cruising at say 50mph. Power
consumption: 15kw
A pair of Honda 3kw in a trailer as a genny could deliver a steady 4.8kw
fairly quietly, efficiently and okay, with pollution, but that 4.8kw of
steady output and with an 80% efficient charger would reduce the battery
consumption rate by 3.84/15 or 27% extending your effective range by the
same 27%.
So that 30mi EV range is now 35miles as a noisy hybrid.
You're right, it hardly seems worth it.
Now, it is worth it if you can get that %power reduction to 50% or better or
can reduce your speed and power consumption to effect the same. On my boat,
this strategy has allowed 45mile runs on a charge on the Columbia River with
real tired batteries. The boat can cruise at 4knots with about 1.8kw draw.
With the single Honda 2kw genset onboard with home-built Vicor-based
chargers plugged in, the genset/charger setup delivers 1.44kw steady into
the batteries, reducing the electron burn rate from the batteries by 80%.
So running with genset going steadily (1/3gal/hr) extends my battery range
to 5x what it is with batteries alone.
So it really comes down to needing a good percentage of your cruise power
being provided by the genset/charger to make it worthwhile. With my boat,
it's still a bit short in my opinion---2.4kw steady output from the genset
would be perfect.
-Myles Twete
"The Reach Of Tide" Electric Barge Cruiser:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
This is hardly the first time it's come up.
People argue that the genny will allow them to get another 10% of range
or whatever so they can use it more often. The per-mile smog emissions
might be 10x higher than a car, but it's only 10% of the time.
Otherwise they would not try to own an EV at all.
It's a valid theory, but I doubt it has any merit in practice. It is
only a rather marginal gain in range unless you plan to spend a very
long downtime running the genny to drive a few miles or use a HUGE
genny. It seems unlikely that suddenly this small gain in range lets
you drive all that much more. Sure if your trip to work is 30 mi and
you can only manage a 28 mi range- but how often is that really the
case? And if your batteries are that marginal for the job, how long
till they age enough so the little boost a genny gives still won't let
you get there? Especially if you're taxing them to their limit to make
the trip over and over (deep discharges).
The generator comes with a significant need for weight and space. It
requires some clearance to anything flammable or meltable, and needs to
have an exhaust system routed again. This could easily displace the
weight available for 2 or 3 batts or more, and displace the volume of 4
or 5 batts.
It's also embarrasing and likely illegal to drive with a loud, smelly
generator. And it will almost certainly be loud.
I'd be more than willing to readily accept a change in the situation if
a small, powerful, efficient, quiet, and clean generator became
available. Or even 3 out of 5 if the change is significant. The
Capstone Microturbine is sort of there, but in the end the efficiency in
generating electricity just doesn't seem to measure up. It's quiet,
fairly powerful, well designed, and low emissions, but when I ran some
calcs it doesn't look like it's a whole lot more efficient than the
original engine. Maybe some- but not enough to redesign the car and
spend thousands on a hacked-together system.
All I can say is that of what I've seen of generators on the market that
people have considered, none will provide a practical service for an
EV. Will displace so much of the EV's batt capacity that the already
limited capabilities of the EV make it a near-useless EV that relies on
the generator too much. Then it's just a horrifically dirty and
inefficient engine and STILL has a very limited range, and there's no
apparent merit to that that I can see.
Danny
Marty Hewes wrote:
>
> I could pull a small generator on a trailer for that 1% of the time I
> need it. Virtually no downside when I don't use it.
>
> More comments below:
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it's not my favorite layout but sure.
I'm quite partial to the clean look of the dpreview.com forum although
their width could be set a bit higher. still very nice and sober.
very psychovisually effective
Chip Gribben wrote:
You mean like this one Dan?
http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,435.0.html
Everyone should check that one out. That's the type of forum Dan is
talking about. They loved him over there.
But Dan, thanks for the suggestion but we'll stick with what we have
here.
Chip
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum an someone set
that up?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
off the top of my head you would need two motors besides the relatively
complicated worm gear in a system that promises to eventually do without
any gears at all.
it's a needless complication
Chet Fields wrote:
Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to create a CVT
for EV's? Something
that would allow for torque multiplication at low speeds and yet low RPMs for
high speeds.
It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary carrier? Could
also work kind of
like the series/parallel switching. And the controller would have to be more
complicated. Would
any of the motors need to also run backwards?
Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my neurons on
this one alone :-)
Chet
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A web search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22fuel+consumption%22+30Kw+diesel+generator
finds:
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/PMEPS/DOCUMENTS/USMCGeneratorBook%20V3.pdf
Answer: from 2.4 to 2.7 gph
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? : )
why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole EV
concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week
with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the small
ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line? hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a
nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for
charging some where and continue without it or you can just keep
dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could still use
the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one
and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm referring to the fact that the TS has kept its name but the
> ownerships and resources are quite different from the screwups.
...
> Do you really think that changing the name would solve this issue ? We
> just might do that. But seriously. I wish there would be another way to
> gat around this. New cells ?
>
> How about if you then send me the complete list of broken cells ?
> I know Victor and Lee got some. Who else ?
as a non-invested bystander in this conversation, i for one would love to
see lee get some thundersky cells. why? well, if lee comes back to the list
and tells me that they worked, and how he used them, i'd be very likely to
buy some for my project. as a complete newbie, i'm unlikely to jump in and
try them out on my own, they're exensive and i'd most likely ruin them
anyway.
i'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way.
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet,
Yes it could be used for EV's but once you've got two motors in there
anyway why not just link them up normally? There's no reason to have
them turning at different speeds compared to each other.
Dan,
What worm gear? There is no worm gear in the Prius E-CVT.
Trot, the frustrated, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
off the top of my head you would need two motors besides the relatively
complicated worm gear in a system that promises to eventually do without
any gears at all.
it's a needless complication
Chet Fields wrote:
> Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to create a
CVT for EV's? Something
> that would allow for torque multiplication at low speeds and yet low RPMs for
high speeds.
>
> It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary carrier? Could
also work kind of
> like the series/parallel switching. And the controller would have to be more
complicated. Would
> any of the motors need to also run backwards?
>
> Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my neurons on
this one alone :-)
>
> Chet
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True Lee. I believe you on this. I was a list member before become
involved with TS. There are no "sides" what it comes to my position here.
I have to be clear here. Most of you are in states. I have no right to
sell stuff there. Thou I can give for free. :) There is a sole
distributorship and own battery factory in USA. It's an independent
company but has licensed the TS tech.
I made a policy a long time ago that I will never ever sell the cells to
anyone without a complete system. I prefer completely welded casing for
the pack so no user can tamper with the insides.
What I have in mind, simply, is to correct the wrong what my fellow EVrs
have encountered. Some of the posts I read about this sounds like I
personally would have sold you the cells. And that I did not do. I my
self were buying few cells at that time too. They were excellent 200 Ah
cells.
I feel mostly bad because you're NOT able to feel the freaking freedom
with 150 + EV range which I have with several ex-lead sledges !
It's a new EV life. I can't praise the feelings while passing cars in
highway and keep doing that for well over 100 miles. SWEET!
So what's it gonna be ? Can I ask new cells for you for free or not ?
But I insist that we replace all of the cells from everyone who bought
BS on that purchase. And since you might be getting new cells without
BMS.. I would suggest sticking with LFP cells now. Agreed ?
-Jukka
Lee Hart kirjoitti:
jukka wrote:
p.s.- I'm currently sitting in our office in TS factory (Shenzhen,
China). Any other questions guys?
I am one of those people that bought a sample lot of TS cells back in
2003. I was luckier than most as I only bought a small number. The cells
were old and mismatched, and did not meet specs. They were completely
useless for EV use; a waste of money.
If these cells had been good, I was fully prepared to buy more, and put
them in my EV. If they had worked out well, I am in a good position to
recommend them to other EV companies and builders, as my voice is widely
respected. I have done consulting work on several EVs, and am currently
involved in a production electric car (the Sunrise). Thundersky
batteries could well have wound up in any of these applications.
The only way I would try Thundersky again is if I bought them from a
distributor that I trust, with a good guarantee.
The Chinese should know better than most that your reputation is the
most valuable thing you have. Destroy it, and you have destroyed
yourself. No one wants to take a chance with you again when there are so
many alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peltiers...
I've heard of some new chips "coolchips" - but don't have any idea when,
or if they'll be available.
http://www.coolchips.gi/
They're supposed to be way more efficient that peltiers.... but no word on
an actual product for sale yet...
Ed Cooley
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 06:59
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
cc
Subject
Re: EV achilles' heel
The point of a pusher trailer is to avoid the extra conversion because
every conversion costs.
1)ICE -25%->shaft-->alterntor-75%->controller-90%->motor-90%->wheels
|
-->charger-90%->battery-->controller-90%->motor-90%->wheels
2)
3) ICE-25%->shaft-80%->wheels
1 is .25*.75*.9*.9 = 15% efficient
2 is .25*.75*.9*.9*.9 = 13% efficient
3 is .25+.8 = 20% efficient
The real point here is how to capture the 75% initially lost to heat in
the ICE!
Better Peltiers could recover some.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MG1 is directly coupled to the ICE. They always run together, and MG1 is
used to start the ICE as well as generate electricity (with MG2) when the
vehicle is not in motion.
For example, If you leave your AC on sitting there, eventually the ICE will
run briefly to recharge the pack.
There are NO clutches whatsoever. The MG1/ICE combo is on one mechanical
"side" of the diff (planetary gearset) and the other "side" is MG2. In
order for the ICE to run without the vehicle moving, MG2 has to run
backwards at the same speed. To make the vehicle move the shuffle power
from the MGs. Imagine slowly "braking" MG2 while the ICE/MG1 is running.
The Braking is not wasted, it is electricity put into the pack. As the
current is ramped up the vehicle begins to roll.
This can also be reversed for "pure electric" mode too. The ICE/MG1 can
stay off, and just MG2 can run, albeit twice as fast, to move the vehicle.
This is why electric only mode is speed limited.
The 4wd version used in the highlander and Lexus SUV simply adds a separate
3-phase motor at the rear wheels.
It's mechanically elegant and I am very impressed. If any of you on the
list think it's crap, that just shows you aren't much of an engineer.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
Phil,
I read the wikipedia article and it still sounds like what the article
Jeff sent the link for. MG1 is the generator hooked to a planetary
gearbox. It sounds like the are now calling the planetary gearbox a
"differential" now instead. The wikipedia and the ecrostech articles
don't show pictures of the mechanicals of the system. Does anyone have
pictures of how MG1 and MG2 connects? Saying that MG1 connects to the
Sun gear doesn't show HOW it connects. Does it have a gear on the
outside that MG1 drives? Does it have clutches like the sun gear of an
automatic have? I like the mention of MG2 connected through the
driveshaft. That makes sense since it is responsible for the torque.
It looks like MG1 could be just chained to the ICE motor and run only
when the motor is running. It would be really nice to see one of these
out of the car so each part could be shown and a more detailed operation
explained. Personnally I think the ecrostech article is much more
informative. The wikipedia article is interesting but as I understand
it wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information since anyone
can edit the data.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of (-Phil-)
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I suggest you guys do a modicum of research..... You are incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
engine to the wheels.
There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a second
motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
gears
but it's not a drive motor.
The motor/generator is only there to boost the peak engine power and
allow
the engine to shut off when its high power is not needed and there is
sufficient battery power to meet the driver's demands.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it was essentially an
electric clutch. isn't it?
I don't think the prius arrangement could be cheaper than a series
layout. I would be interested in hearing the design justification but
doubt it would satisfy
Dan
Danny Miller skrev:
No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in there. Gears and all.
The
Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring between a generator and
motor
were the only link from engine to wheels then it'd be a series
hybrid.
It's interesting to note that the engineers spent an awful lot of
design
time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny rather than add a
separate
motor from the generator so they can run at different speeds.
Either
the losses are simply too high or the second motor is more expensive
than the tranny.
The earlier generations of Prius used an electric motor that could
not
produce great acceleration or top speed without the engine. In 2003
the
hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the earlier 30KW and 33KW
ones.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
(-Phil-) wrote:
Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT
*is*
the motor/generators!
By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a
CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and
not
an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not
survive
and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially inclined
(and
one is) one might be suspicious that they intentionally chose a bad
design because it could give the illusion of being environmentally
friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
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The Insight's electric motor is only rated at 10Kw. No, it cannot
move the car. there have been a number of suggestions that someone
should use an Insight for a BEV. I think I heard that someone is
doing it but I traded my Insight in January of last year and left the
lists when I did. It'd be a total gut and replace just like any other
glider.
I know that Ovonics built an EV Insight for a testbed of their metal
fuel cells...
Trot, the less efficient, fox...
On 6/14/07, Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
i've been wondering the exact same thing today.
if, as someone said earlier, the prius will run 11 miles on batteries alone,
we know that the motor has enough power to run the car. why not remove the
ICE and replace it with an equal weight in batteries?
surely someone could design a battery pack that would replace the ICE and be
able to work in conjunction with the existing pack to increase the overall
range to 30 miles or more.
has anyone tried building a pure BEV honda insight? can the insight's
supplemental motor move the car on its own?
m.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
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Semiconductor manufacturers don't publish specs in the datasheet that are
wrong or inflated. I've never seen this. Provided you know how to
interpret the specs, they will meet or exceed them. (except for the rare
occasion you get a defective part)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
and I know about buck and boost. aim higher.
things of actual use to me would be thermal experience with specific
devices. can they actually do as the specs say. what kind of
heatsink/environment gives what kind of Tc for a given current in a given
transistor.
I'm also looking to know what kind of circuitry can efficiently supply a
low voltage from an unknown 100-400v dc source and that source alone
Rich Rudman wrote:
Got yer power supply topology chart handy???
Look up Buck mode... That's the controller...
Look up Boost mode and Buckboost and Buck, On the fly of the grid's sine
wave for my power stage.
Digi Krime is a book of many opertunities... you make them as you see
fit.
Ot buys direct as so do I from manufactures Reps for the power Sand, The
small stuff is Miser and Digikrime....
I am not sure if this is fun or torture...
Madman
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On Tue, June 12, 2007 1:34 pm, David S wrote:
> If you have customized it so much that the only thing left of the
> original is the steering wheel is still really a "55 chevy" or a brand
> new custom car with a "55 chevy" steering wheel?
>
> How many parts can be replaced before it is a new car and not the
> original car that has been upgraded?
>
I don't know about other states, but in Oregon the VIN sticker must still
be afixed to some part of the original body to retain the original title.
(Thus, keep the floor pan of a beetle, slap on a new body, engine, tranny,
etc, and your new buggy is still a 1966, or whatever, VW.)
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I suggest you look up the definition of a clutch. There are no clutches of
any type in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I know the prius system is not about mechanical friction slip. try to
generalize the concept of a clutch beyond specific products and realize I
am right
to include a magnetic clutch or even one based on control of a diff...
Rich Rudman wrote:
Wait you Mush heads ..
The Yota Torque split device...
is basicly a Differential that has a Engine and two motors to divide the
torque and the electrical power up in any way needed.
All the variable math is done with the BLDC vector drive motors.
NO clutches... no sliping of anything mechanical.
Take a open differential... lock one wheel.. the other goes 2x the speed
it
was going.. let the locked wheel spin.. at what ever speed you want it
to..
taking or adding torque via a 4 quadrant motor.. Add back in the negative
torque to the output shaft... and you can have just about any ratio you
need
to move the car attached to the last wheel... You get mechanical torque..
and added power from the Batteries..and the Amp path from the alternator.
It looks aLOT like a planetary Automatic transmission. With motors
attached
to the output shaft and the planetary cluster.
Cool stuff and about 1/2 as complicated as I used to think.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
so you can't generalize. no biggie.
I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a gas
car look like an EV
TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you want
to call it anything other than a CVT.
BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
my hunch though...
Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
engine to the wheels.
There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
second
motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
think about it
it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to the
wheels..
no autographs please :)
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On Tue, June 12, 2007 9:47 pm, Cor van de Water wrote:
> I have heard of people taking a (Salvage) chassis or
> building something entirely from scratch that resembles a certain type of
> vehicle somewhat, then go to a junkyard, cut out 5 quare inch of sheet
> metal from a car with a clear title and weld that into their car and
> re-register it as the original car where they took the sheet metal from. Of
> course the piece of sheet metal selected happens to carry the VIN tag...
>
> Cor van de Water
Yep... used to see that all the time back in the 60's. It's illegal now,
though probably still happens.
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So you are the same guy claiming the Prius is a dumb implementation, yet you
want to do essentially the same thing, albeit less efficiently?
Seriously, I recommend you take an introductory physics course at your local
college.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
I'm not talking about just serving needs. I'm talking about the most
efficient way to get to an EV society. and the range extender is that
until EE storage can be done right or something even better gets out. for
the rare occasions the ice kicks in it could well run on biofuel
Mark Karatovic wrote:
Hi all,
Would hate to take away the environmental aspect of the EV as the
pure no emissions car but it depends on your needs really, and that is
the "perspective" that everyone is thinking of. That is their own
perspective. If an EV by itself doesn't suit your needs isn't a
compromise better than nothing? Renting a car while it sounds good, is
not really an option lets say if you want to go on a holiday for a
week and want a car at your destination while your there. Well it is,
but I would rather not. A hybrid? Well I personally think the Prius is
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I vote to stop all wasted posts on this topic. I run a lot of lists, and
90% of them are "discussion" lists, which means replies go to list. This
issue comes up whenever someone embarrasses themselves, and it's always a
heated one.
IF you start a list from scratch, you can set the mode then, but changing it
midstream can kill the list. I've done it, it's chaos.
Let's please end the waste of posts. I'm getting too many to keep up daily
right now anyway.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
At 04:55 AM 6/14/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In situations where public replies are reasonable do you not trust your
fellow list members to hit the reply-to-all button? After all, most of
them
are (I think) smart enough to properly insulate their wrenches to avoid
shorts. Don't you think they can tell between private and public
responses?
I have *never* seen a mailing list that failed due to lack of flow because
the list members weren't smart enough to hit the proper 'r'eply key.
So, you want to change the default so that the default is to require extra
effort to reply to the list?
Yeah right. Makes lots of sense.
So, thousands of people need to go to extra effort on every posting, to
save 1 or 2 posts a YEAR that are embarrassingly posted publicly
unintentionally.
sheesh.
(And not all mail packages handle "Reply to All" and the "ReplyTo:" tag
correctly. Eudora has the wonderful habit of replying to all the
addresses, and replacing each and every one with the ReplyTo value.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Here Here!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum
can someone set that up?
it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a newly
formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be intererested.
We would ALL appreciate it if you would go create such a forum and have
your discussions there.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I take
the 200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had there
Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have achieved
400-450 km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to get
some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving. That is
already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be specially
designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling
forget EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? : )
why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole EV
concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week
with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the small
ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line? hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a
nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for
charging some where and continue without it or you can just keep
dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could still use
the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one
and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
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