EV digest 6903

Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:04:57 -0700 

                            EV Digest 6903

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Unsubscribe
        by "Thomas Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) UHnsubscribe
        by "Thomas Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: UHnsubscribe
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: EV achilles' heel
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10) Re: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating
        by trev scribby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: TS' problem
        by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: UHnsubscribe
        by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: 
        by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: TS' problem
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Unsubscribe
        by "Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) How to unsubscribe from the list -- again
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: EVision sneak preview
        by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: EV achilles' heel
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 22) Re: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating
        by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating
        by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) RE: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating
        by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) RE: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating
        by trev scribby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
jukka wrote:

Batts: 45 pcs of 200 Ah LiCo-cells. That's about 32 kWh and 250 kgs.
BMS: GENII BMS version made in cooperation with FEVT/MME.
Car: Citroén Berlingo EV (OEM) 1999 modell.

The components are priced according the agreed sales prices world wide.

any rational reason why you just don't tell the cost?
The donor cost only 2000 eur due some missing parts (NiCd batts) and cooperation with Enviro Elbilsalg AS, Norge.
yeah I hear you can get those almost free. not my favorite car style though :) 
Car has now 50 pcs of LFP-150s but other components are same.


the others died? after how long?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks Dale, that helps alot.
So if we use an emissions legal engine from the same or newer car or motorcycle to power a generator head, are we legal, or was that engine only certified in a given body with a given drivetrain (I recall something about having to certify every engine/transmission combination)?
Maybe only the pusher is legal from an emissions point of view, since the entire drivetrain is original and certified. Even then, does the pusher have to meet emissions regs of the glider, or the pusher? Sounds like the glider.
Or maybe two battery packs, one moving the car, and one disconnected from the car but connected to a generator in the bed (cops would have to prove intent to use for propulsion)? 

Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel



>the bed of an S10?  When you connect it to the vehicle?  When the vehicle
starts to move (legal while parked off the pavement)? If the Vehicle needs 
it to move (thus an integral part of the vehicle)?  Because the EV itself

is

no longer an EV and loses it's exclusions?



On a related note, if you took an emissions legal engine, all emissions

gear

intact, and ran a generator with it, would that be legal, or is it only
certified with it's original drivetrain?  Isn't the trans part of the
certified package?



This is a bit of a strange situation. As an 'aftermarket fuel conversion',
40 CFR 85.502 indicates that it would be the emissions requirements
of the original vehicle, in your case, a 1978 Jeep. You can't exceed the
class limits of the original engine. PHEV's are specifically
included in here, which is what you are really creating by adding either
a pusher trailer or a genset.

Now, if you stop at the side of the road and charge from a portable
generator, is it an HEV or is the generator still an off-road device?
Convince a judge, but I know which way I'd be leaning.

The wording does not specifically have a statement about a 'trailer'
so I would suspect it depended on if your lawyer could convince a judge
one way or the other.

An 'aftermarket' installer is exempt from deterioration testing and
the supplemental US06 test cycle. Personal-use is not specifically
covered in this CFR, so, again, it'll depend on your lawyer and
judge.


-Dale

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I too like text email lists I can read all day from my phone.
A forum is a compleltely differnet beast that requires websurfing and usually sitting down at a puter . 

Text rules!


On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:46 pm, Jeff Shanab wrote:

I am sorry, I have to disagree.
I like the list as an email.  A single pastebin like site might be good
for reference.


This is a list I want to "read all" every day, It is fast simple and
takes less bandwidth as a text only list.
Sometimes I transfer to my phone and take it with me.

(And before you blast me, I am a software engineer, Just because a new
bandwidth sucking bell or whistle is avail, doesn't make it appropriate) 

I have run 2 or 3 forums and I use forums. When there are thousands of
varied users occasionally there, or problem centric, they are most
appropriate.
When most listers want to view all every day, this is best.

KISS, kinda the EV motto.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles. 

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I know it's still very novel and all but there is this new thing called a graphical user interface. I'm sure it's just empty hype but it claims to give better overview and structure to applications. but let's stick to linear text only. I'm sure this graphics thing will pass soon enough. 

some of us have a visual cortex

Dan


GWMobile wrote:

I too like text email lists I can read all day from my phone.
A forum is a compleltely differnet beast that requires websurfing and usually sitting down at a puter . 

Text rules!


On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:46 pm, Jeff Shanab wrote:

I am sorry, I have to disagree.
I like the list as an email.  A single pastebin like site might be good
for reference.


This is a list I want to "read all" every day, It is fast simple and
takes less bandwidth as a text only list.
Sometimes I transfer to my phone and take it with me.

(And before you blast me, I am a software engineer, Just because a new
bandwidth sucking bell or whistle is avail, doesn't make it appropriate)

I have run 2 or 3 forums and I use forums. When there are thousands of
varied users occasionally there, or problem centric, they are most
appropriate.
When most listers want to view all every day, this is best.

KISS, kinda the EV motto.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles. 

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Unsubscribe me please


Tom B.

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Unsubscribe please

 

Tom B.


Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html

Thomas Barnes wrote:


Unsubscribe please


Tom B.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?



Jeff Shanab wrote:

I just replaced my 24 exide orbitals. They were weak but still under
warantee. I did findout that they are really easy to reverse but they
recover from that ok.
They didn't last as long as I thought they should, but it was my first
pack. :-) so about 8000 miles and 1.5 years
Drat... that's not very good. I had seen some encouraging data on them, and so was considering a set. 


 Hi Jeff;
Gees! pretty disapointing show!But you gave away your"Secret" to destruction. "Easy to reverse" Hell! All badd-eries are easy to reverse, asking too much from them. EVery time you reverse them, you are" killing them softly" like the song says. As Lee used to say, batteries can't cry out when they hurt. You are going along and they are doing a silent scream of protest, but you won't hear it!
I have a "dog's Breakfast" mess of BADDeries in my Jetta. I drive it hard enough to reverse the bum batteries enough to get some Trojan Teakettles going! Ah! THERE'S the 20 volt drop under load!Yank it out, drop in another of uncertain heritage, and off to the store, in New Haven, 25 miles away each way! I'll find my slackers! I'm not playing with a 2k pack, I spent, maybe 25 bux for a "Used " Battery.
Lee, talk to J.Wayland, he has a zillion miles on his Orbies, but he is merticulous in his battery care and feeding. He is happy with , to me, is crappy range.I could TOW his Blue Meanie further than it would go on the Orbs, with the Rabbit, with T 145's, in place. I don't care if it beats V-8's in street races I just want a 50 plus range, day in and day out.Keeps up with reasonable traffic. Tow the wood splitter home.Bring home a few dozen studds and sheets of plywood home from Blowes,tied to the roof. Pull Stumps in the yard as needed, Move another car or bus around the yard as duty switch engine .Other acrobatics that use lots of amps. 

  Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
sigh...
gone are the days where you and your neighbor Billy-Bob could overhaul a 
carburetor in the garage.

Regulations, regulations, regulations.

Next thing I know, they'll be fining me for eating too many beans.

I really appreciate all the feedback.
Maybe I'll just keep the Camry.
Its old, paid for, and gets 29+ mpg on the highway.
I just hate keeping the thing in the driveway. Its too big to keep around 
for just a spare vehicle.

However, my Mother has cancer, not only do I visit her frequently (1-2x a 
month) - I drive her to chemotherapy in her infrequently driven vehicle.

It would be so cool to not have to use so much gasoline/diesel...

Maybe we can find some of those radioactive satellite batteries that last 
10+ years on a single "charge" - 

(I'm kidding; I wouldn't want those to be stolen, taken apart, and have 
the innards used to create a dirty bomb or something).


Ed Cooley





"Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 22:49
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu


To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc

Subject
RE: EV achilles' heel









>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:59:25 -0400
>

>
>1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle, and know how
>loud it is?
>or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like the idea, so
>you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist (and I'm right)..." is
>hardly a valid argument.
>
>2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
>converter/quiet exhaust?
>
>3) any reason you couldn't put a chain hoist in your garage (if you have
>one) and put it on the back of your truck? (for those of you who have
>trucks) - or trailer, if you have a different vehicle?
>
>The entire exhaust on my old geo was $200, including a new catalytic 
(Yes,
>I'm FAR-right-wing, and Yes, I care about the environment  - hence the
>totally voluntary purchase of a catalytic converter on a vehicle that the
>state didn't say I had to replace. I also care about what *terrorists* 
are
>doing with the gas-money I give them). Just because you're an
>environmentalist, doesn't mean you have all the answers.
>
>We've all spent way more than that on our EVs, theres no reason you
>couldn't tack on a catalytic, if you're concerned about the environment
>and noise.

Modern ICE engines ( on road-going vehicles) achieve their low emissions 
by 
having a well-designed, computer-controlled engine to begin with, and with 

the help of a catalytic converter, and a host of sensors and controls that 

work together.

"Tacking"  a catalytic convert onto an engine not designed for it will 
accomplish very little, and the converter will likely be destroyed very 
quickly.

Phil Marino

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN 
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Got my new computer, was able to put my thoughts on
paper. Let me know what you guys think. I have been
obsessed with EV stuff. So rad..

High Speed Winch for Wakeskating

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/shoredrivevb/Electric-Winch-1st-Draft.jpg

Trevor Scribner
Small Craft Towing
Virginia Beach, Va
757.285.4469


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play 
Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hey, watch it, I rebuilt the Carter AFB in my 1971 4x4 Econoline van last year :). I drive it about 100 miles a year to go pick up big and/or heavy stuff.
I'm just thinking that this might mean that converting cars old enough not to have much in the way of regs (or testing in Illinois, as nothing older than OBDII (I think) is getting tested anyway), might be an advantage. Not that I want to pollute, I just don't want to get busted for a technicality while I'm not polluting. 

Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel



sigh...
gone are the days where you and your neighbor Billy-Bob could overhaul a
carburetor in the garage.

Regulations, regulations, regulations.

Next thing I know, they'll be fining me for eating too many beans.

I really appreciate all the feedback.
Maybe I'll just keep the Camry.
Its old, paid for, and gets 29+ mpg on the highway.
I just hate keeping the thing in the driveway. Its too big to keep around
for just a spare vehicle.

However, my Mother has cancer, not only do I visit her frequently (1-2x a
month) - I drive her to chemotherapy in her infrequently driven vehicle.

It would be so cool to not have to use so much gasoline/diesel...

Maybe we can find some of those radioactive satellite batteries that last
10+ years on a single "charge" -

(I'm kidding; I wouldn't want those to be stolen, taken apart, and have
the innards used to create a dirty bomb or something).


Ed Cooley





"Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 22:49
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu


To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc

Subject
RE: EV achilles' heel










From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:59:25 -0400





1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle, and know how
loud it is?
or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like the idea, so
you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist (and I'm right)..." is
hardly a valid argument.

2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
converter/quiet exhaust?

3) any reason you couldn't put a chain hoist in your garage (if you have
one) and put it on the back of your truck? (for those of you who have
trucks) - or trailer, if you have a different vehicle?

The entire exhaust on my old geo was $200, including a new catalytic

(Yes,

I'm FAR-right-wing, and Yes, I care about the environment  - hence the
totally voluntary purchase of a catalytic converter on a vehicle that the
state didn't say I had to replace. I also care about what *terrorists*

are

doing with the gas-money I give them). Just because you're an
environmentalist, doesn't mean you have all the answers.

We've all spent way more than that on our EVs, theres no reason you
couldn't tack on a catalytic, if you're concerned about the environment
and noise.


Modern ICE engines ( on road-going vehicles) achieve their low emissions
by
having a well-designed, computer-controlled engine to begin with, and with

the help of a catalytic converter, and a host of sensors and controls that

work together.

"Tacking"  a catalytic convert onto an engine not designed for it will
accomplish very little, and the converter will likely be destroyed very
quickly.

Phil Marino

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:

sigh...
gone are the days where you and your neighbor Billy-Bob could overhaul a carburetor in the garage. 

Regulations, regulations, regulations.

Next thing I know, they'll be fining me for eating too many beans.

I really appreciate all the feedback.
Maybe I'll just keep the Camry.
Its old, paid for, and gets 29+ mpg on the highway.
I just hate keeping the thing in the driveway. Its too big to keep around for just a spare vehicle.
However, my Mother has cancer, not only do I visit her frequently (1-2x a month) - I drive her to chemotherapy in her infrequently driven vehicle.
sorry about your mother. I have prayed for her. if she doesn't talk to God, now would be a good time 
It would be so cool to not have to use so much gasoline/diesel...
Maybe we can find some of those radioactive satellite batteries that last 10+ years on a single "charge" - (I'm kidding; I wouldn't want those to be stolen, taken apart, and have the innards used to create a dirty bomb or something). 


Ed Cooley

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 


Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:

jukka wrote:
...

How long has the small boy to live with the name of know murderer ? Why
he has to carry the burden ?
Wrong analogy, TS is not a new boy. It's still TS mentality no matter who says what. 

I was referring to the companies who license the TS tech.

Ok. Let's take another analogy. Just for fun.
You have 60% strong finest Russian Vodka on the bottle. You cook it until there's no alcohol remaining. Is it still the finest Vodka around ? I bet the functionality has gone and taste is quite different. 

So with some effort we could make a healthy drink out of Vodka. Right ?



TS can change product, management and
name, but in essence it remains TS culture. If they change name,
it's even worse, it's misleading by covering their tracks. This means old company no longer exists and so whoever had any hope for any warranty claims, is now screwed - no more TS so all problems about TS past are gone. Who cares about customers.
I think you're mixing terms here. You're right thou. Most of the operations in China are being conducted by Chinese. They see things differently.
So how about the TS technology. You see no problem with the Lions but people instead.
Usually when companies fuse warranties do not disappear. Or have such happened ? I have to say that I do not remember any case like that. 


Wrong way to fix the damage.
I could not agree more with you. Don't you think it's time to clear this thing once and for all ? 


I'm referring to the fact that the TS has kept its name but the
ownerships and resources are quite different from the screwups.


Makes no difference. With all respect to you personally, these are
only your words Jukka. It has not been demonstrated and I'm not sure
TS is even aware that they have to do anything about what they've done in the past.
Such demonstrations can't be expected from companies in China. At least on this list where the batteing is being done. I've been living this whole thing with you guys. Believe me.
I have taken care that this case needs rewieving. They have admitted that something had gone wrong. Thou nobody have been able to pinpoint the exact thing what.
I hope this is more than just words. Or can you say that I'm mostly like what you described ? Just words ? 



Currently there is still one problem. Cells are sold witout BMS to any
customer who wan't to buy. And nearly as many cells get broken by the
ignorant users. And claim cells being bad.


This is not the problem for someone mike me. I don't mean that I came up
with my BMS I can attach to any Li cells including TS. I mean I will
never buy TS product, BMS or no BMS. It is not a problem for anyone who's opinion about TS is settled - they no longer care about fine details like BMS. About any details for that matter until there is a hard earned unquestionable proof of otherwise.
Hmm.. So BMS is just fine details ? I can't believe what you are saying. Considering how much I know what you know about necessity of BMS...
But.. I know that you got in the middle of something you really did not wan't to. The risk came reality. So I understand quite well your thoughts. 

I think the proof is being generated as we chat here...



Nowadays all cells are tested and data logged to DBs. So we know what
was the cell condition before it leaves the factory. No DOAs should be
possible. But ofcourse.. anything can happen during transport.


Sure, That's what they told me before shipping 504 cells in 5 containers.
Who was that actually ? I will hunt this person down my self. Cycle testing with even something called a DB has not existed back then. 




Do you really think that changing the name would solve this issue ? We
just might do that.
As I said, if TS does that once, they ruin their future forever for sure - people will expect not only questionable product but also deceiving practices to cover wrong doing.
I got an impression from preivous mails that only the name has been swamped.
Umm.. Being in China for months annually that's kind of default assumption everywhere here... Trust only your family. If even that.
Buy any piece of hardware and you feel screwed. Why ? Because people do not expect warranties here. At least so it seems. 2 days old powersupply get's open by user if it lets the smoke out. The new lucky owner buys components and repairs it. It did not even occur to his/hers mind to take it back and get it fixed. 




 But seriously. I wish there would be another way to

gat around this. New cells ?



How about if you then send me the complete list of broken cells ? I know
Victor and Lee got some. Who else ?


I can dig up list of all 11 people who bought what if I put some time
in it. I personally had 96 TS-LP90 cells. But money in this case is not everything. I'd be happy to get my money back from TS, which I don't believe I ever will, but even if I did, it will not convert me into a believer that this company is great. 

Sure, I'll accept brand new 90Ah cells from TS. What's delivery date?
What? Can't hear you.

That's what I'm talking about.
Ok Vic. Now you're already saying that there's no trusting in my words either ? Are you not being a bit steep towards me here ?
Delivery dates and amounts will be confirmed when I have the complete list in my hand. I will go it through with Winston and send further details to people involved.
Also before anything happens we will confirm the pickup procedures of the old cells so they can be verified and recycled properly. If the cells are missing or such we need to see it through case by case.
I'm committed to this since I think I can pull this off. I've learned so much from the list and most of oldtimers here. From You too Victor. So can I now do something in return ? 

-Jukka





-Jukka


Victor

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Strangely funny that the one who quickly informs how to unsubscribe from
this list won't do the dignity of unsubscribing himself from this list of
text-loving Neanderthals.  I guess that's the nature of a troll...

I've been on this list now since 1993 and I've never seen such a PITA
troll---oh crap, I just fed it...and I promised myself I wouldn't.

I tip my hat to the moderator of this list for finally stepping in on recent
non-EV activity (e.g. this troll-feeding message).
But I do wonder how how many mutineers or men overboard will result before
this troll finds a new list to hound.  Maybe it's better to put a thumb in
the dike before even old time members like myself leave this list in a
flood.

Attention trolls: do us all a favor---here's the link again:
http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        Or more directly: send message with subject "signoff ev" to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Attention non-trolls: do as I say and not as I do and don't feed the trolls.

-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello David,

A steady consistent plan and effort will get you there.
My first goal is to get my EV refurbished and on the road. I'm almost there. 

My second goal is to learn how to drive and manage my EV.
My third goal is to learn about Lithium and Battery Mangement Systems(BMS) with respect to the various Lithium flavors that are out there.
My fourth goal is to build a Lithium based pack and have have enough range to reach the beach 170 miles away (200 mile range). I figure my electric usage rate would be around 250whr/mile which would require a 50KW pack (250whr/mile x 200 miles = 50,000wh = 50 kwh) If buying A123's off Ebay at round $110 for a pack with 10 batteries inside, the cost would come to $66K. (50kwh/8wh/battery ~ 6k of battery *$11/battery) There maybe a way to buy them in bulk for a lesser cost. Laptops use a different Lithium chemistry which is prone to catching fire if a PTC (pressure temperature circuit) built into each battery is overwhelmed or fails. Thus the recall of laptop battery packs. These batteries are relatively inexpensive compared to other Lithium Ion batteries. I think I remember seeing a cost of around $4 each for an 18650 (18mm dia, 65mm long) battery. They are also contain more energy /kg than the A123's. I think it was around 8whr/battery (3.3v * 2.4Ahr) Roughly the same energy in half the volume for about a 1/3 of the price. Therefore a 200 mile pack would cost about $24K. Recently Tesla said that their 200 mile range pack costs about $25K to manufacture.
With the 18650 laptop batteries and some of the others, there are calendar life, shelf life, safety, and other issues. While the 18650 batteries are relatively cheap, you are likely to have to replace a pack sooner than if you were to go with the more expensive A123's (Bill Dube was thinking > 10k cycles from an earlier post) or Altair's yet to go into production NanoSafe batteries with a Phoenix Motorcar posted 250,000 / 12+ year warranty on the Altair pack. The Lithium based chemistries have great potential for long life.
Just remember that Spirit and Opportunity have Lithium based packs and have been rovering about on Mars in -100 degree Fahrenheit temperatures for over 3 years using PV to recharge the packs. 

Peter

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Peter,
I will be purchasing the "Convert It" book.  Of all the publications recommended
to me that one comes up almost every time.  I did not know there was a trading
post for EV's and I will be checking into that.  Starting from scratch is a
tremendous project.  And there may be a great deal of learning i can do with a
used EV to help me decide what i do and don't like.  I will defiantly check out
the post.  I am still hanging on to the whole lithium thing(I may not be
thinking realistically), but I want to keep the weight down as much as
possible.  I may have to start with lead acid and put money aside till i can
purchase all Lith's at once.  I'm afraid if I buy one at a time I may end up
with some duds.  At those prices i can't afford duds..


also,, if anyone is in the State of Arizona near the Phoenix area.. I'd love to
get together and chat.... I promise to keep reading & writing to the List.. not
trying to take info away from the site..

David out
_______________________________________

.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 08:45 AM 6/15/2007, jukka wrote:
Delivery dates and amounts will be confirmed when I have the complete list in my hand. I will go it through with Winston and send further details to people involved.
Also before anything happens we will confirm the pickup procedures of the old cells so they can be verified and recycled properly. If the cells are missing or such we need to see it through case by case.
I'm committed to this since I think I can pull this off. I've learned so much from the list and most of oldtimers here. From You too Victor. So can I now do something in return ? 

I have stated before that I had Qty 52 of the 90AH cells.
And you know that mine are no longer available to return.
Since they were garbage, they were sitting on shelf when my shop burned down.
If they had actually worked, they would have been in the car over by the house.
As I have said before (and not received any acknowledgment of), I'd be happy to change my mind about current Thundersky cells - but the only ones they've sold to me in the past were garbage, so unless I have good cells to try to work with, my published opinion stands. 

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Unsubscribe me please


Bill C.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Remember getting this email when you signed up?

"To sign off from the list, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the following
request:

                      signoff EV
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Note that you need to send the command to [EMAIL PROTECTED],
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If you send it to ev@listproc.sjsu.edu everyone else on the list sees
it, AND, it doesn't unsubscribe you.  Frankly, I'm tired of getting
emails saying unsubscribe.

"If you want to post messages to list EV, you should direct your
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Victor,
I saw the pictures and looked at the specs at

http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm

Can you supply the dimensions of the indicator unit?
I want to see if it will fit my dash.

John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>So if we use an emissions legal engine from the same or newer car or
>motorcycle to power a generator head, are we legal, or was that engine only
>certified in a given body with a given drivetrain (I recall something about
>having to certify every engine/transmission combination)?

Technically, the last point is correct - technically you would need
to certify the whole vehicle again with the new powerplant.... but
perhaps 'intent' would be ok??? BEV with obviously zero emissions
is clean and emission testing does not make sense. A 'newer' engine
does not necessarily meet the letter of the law. For example, if
you are making a HEV out of a 2005 Honda, you may not be able to use
an engine from a 2007 Chevy if the emissions are higher in the later
vehicle than the earlier one - and that can happen.


>Maybe only the pusher is legal from an emissions point of view, since the
>entire drivetrain is original and certified.  Even then, does the pusher
>have to meet emissions regs of the glider, or the pusher?  Sounds like the
>glider.

That's not spelled out in the regs that well, so you might be breaking new
ground. I would think whichever is newer.... but what if the glider is a
purpose-built EV (in the ZEV class)? Then you couldn't use a pusher at all?
I dunno on that one.

>Or maybe two battery packs, one moving the car, and one disconnected from
>the car but connected to a generator in the bed (cops would have to prove
>intent to use for propulsion)?

The cop does not have to prove that much... it's a judge you have to
worry about. Well, if a cop lets you go then maybe you don't have to
worry about it but if a cop (or a vehicle inspector or your insurance
company) flags it, then you might have to worry about it.

-Dale

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks - I appreciate it - 
She does - she prays daily.
She's been fighting cancer since ~2001; The cancer has moved into her 
bones, which is apparently very painful.
It is not in any 'soft tissue' (kidneys, lungs, etc) - 

The doctors say she can live like this for a while - as long as the cancer 
is treated, it won't grow fast, 
and as long as the pain is bearable - 

I know its hard on her, but I'm amazed at how she manages to keep a 
positive attitude most times, in spite of the pain.

Thanks for your prayers.

Best Regards - 
Ed Cooley
Charlotte, NC





Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/15/2007 11:45
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu


To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc

Subject
Re: EV achilles' heel






[EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
> sigh...
> gone are the days where you and your neighbor Billy-Bob could overhaul a 

> carburetor in the garage.
>
> Regulations, regulations, regulations.
>
> Next thing I know, they'll be fining me for eating too many beans.
>
> I really appreciate all the feedback.
> Maybe I'll just keep the Camry.
> Its old, paid for, and gets 29+ mpg on the highway.
> I just hate keeping the thing in the driveway. Its too big to keep 
around 
> for just a spare vehicle.
>
> However, my Mother has cancer, not only do I visit her frequently (1-2x 
a 
> month) - I drive her to chemotherapy in her infrequently driven vehicle.
> 
sorry about your mother. I have prayed for her. if she doesn't talk to 
God, now would be a good time
> It would be so cool to not have to use so much gasoline/diesel...
>
> Maybe we can find some of those radioactive satellite batteries that 
last 
> 10+ years on a single "charge" - 
>
> (I'm kidding; I wouldn't want those to be stolen, taken apart, and have 
> the innards used to create a dirty bomb or something).
>
>
> Ed Cooley
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Looks like it'll work. I'd probably use a chain drive instead of belts. Easier and less friction.
It'll be hard to have a charger/converter that will power the whole mess from AC. Even if you come up with a large enough unit, you will still need substantially more peak current than 2kw (probably about the max you can expect to get out of a normal 120v outlet).
Now if you keep the batteries in-circuit, and just use the AC to charge them, as long as your average draw is under 2kw, then you have a winner. 

How will this be controlled?
It would be neat to install a spring loaded bar that has a switch or pot on it. The tow rope would press down on this bar when under load, and then you could have it automatically stop if the skier dumped. The line would go slack, and the bar would spring up stopping the drum.
With a little logic, you would also make a "tug start" so when the skier is ready, he jerks the rope which starts the acceleration ramp. A slack line slows the drum, and if it stays slack for too long it aborts the run.
The really neat option would be to have a thumb trigger on the handle so the skier could do his own throttle. This would require either a radio link (preferable) or feeding some wire through the center of a woven rope. (probably difficulty and unreliable)
It would be nice to have a clutch to allow you to unspool. Maybe even an electric payout system that unspools automatically. Then add a little R/C boat with some sort of drag hook that can grab the line that's paying out and tow it back to the launch area.... You'll have very fast "reset" for the next skier.
If you ever would like to do such a control system, I would be happy to consult, as my business is embedded control. 

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "trev scribby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating



Got my new computer, was able to put my thoughts on
paper. Let me know what you guys think. I have been
obsessed with EV stuff. So rad..

High Speed Winch for Wakeskating

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/shoredrivevb/Electric-Winch-1st-Draft.jpg

Trevor Scribner
Small Craft Towing
Virginia Beach, Va
757.285.4469



____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
http://sims.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 6/15/07, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Maybe even an
electric payout system that unspools automatically.  Then add a little R/C
boat with some sort of drag hook that can grab the line that's paying out
and tow it back to the launch area....   You'll have very fast "reset" for
the next skier.


Hah, I thought of that too :)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Trevor,

I like your ideas and set up.  If I think of anything that may be of use
I'll send out an E-mail.  I used to enjoy water skiing a lot.

Just thought of something.  If one of your first electric winches is
slower, or does not have quite enough hp for a skier, a knee board, with
more surface area, requires less speed and may work.

Have you thought about safety?  Maybe I worry too much.  O.K., I worry
too much about some things.  If a skier had trouble in the middle of the
lake, what could be done to help?  Bystanders could swim out and help
by....  I am thinking that what if a small row boat or powered boat were
not there?  Maybe the lake is small enough that help could get out there
quickly?  Would one or two tire inner tubes on the beach be a safety
backup for flotation?  Would a rope and throw ring on the beach be
useful, and still small enough to pack in the car with the gear?
Without using a boat to ski you have eliminated some of the hazard
(exposed propeller, hot motor, bad driver, etc...)

I have heard of people here skiing in an irrigation canal behind a
pickup truck.  The rope can catch on a head gate or obstacle and the
skier hits a solid object rather quickly.  You do not have obstacles, so
are much safer.

Likely you have the safety issue covered, and in no means do I intend to
offend anyone.  

Alan Brinkman

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of trev scribby
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:26 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: High Speed Electric Winch for Wakeskating

Got my new computer, was able to put my thoughts on
paper. Let me know what you guys think. I have been
obsessed with EV stuff. So rad..

High Speed Winch for Wakeskating

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/shoredrivevb/Electric-Winch-1st-
Draft.jpg

Trevor Scribner
Small Craft Towing
Virginia Beach, Va
757.285.4469


       
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Oh yeah, safety first, above all.
Yeah, when we do this now with my gas motor, we keep
an eye on each other. Most places are relatively
shallow, not good for the neck, but easier to get out
and save someone. Yeah, i should get a throw-ring and
mount it on the front of my car. That would be crazy.

It will also be used at events where there are man
made pools set up in parking lots. Safety personnel on
site of course.

thanks, i love this ev list!

I had a business law professor at Radford University
named Alan Brinkman, good times.


--- Alan Brinkman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Trevor,
> 
> I like your ideas and set up.  If I think of
> anything that may be of use
> I'll send out an E-mail.  I used to enjoy water
> skiing a lot.
> 
> Just thought of something.  If one of your first
> electric winches is
> slower, or does not have quite enough hp for a
> skier, a knee board, with
> more surface area, requires less speed and may work.
> 
> Have you thought about safety?  Maybe I worry too
> much.  O.K., I worry
> too much about some things.  If a skier had trouble
> in the middle of the
> lake, what could be done to help?  Bystanders could
> swim out and help
> by....  I am thinking that what if a small row boat
> or powered boat were
> not there?  Maybe the lake is small enough that help
> could get out there
> quickly?  Would one or two tire inner tubes on the
> beach be a safety
> backup for flotation?  Would a rope and throw ring
> on the beach be
> useful, and still small enough to pack in the car
> with the gear?
> Without using a boat to ski you have eliminated some
> of the hazard
> (exposed propeller, hot motor, bad driver, etc...)
> 
> I have heard of people here skiing in an irrigation
> canal behind a
> pickup truck.  The rope can catch on a head gate or
> obstacle and the
> skier hits a solid object rather quickly.  You do
> not have obstacles, so
> are much safer.
> 
> Likely you have the safety issue covered, and in no
> means do I intend to
> offend anyone.  
> 
> Alan Brinkman
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of trev scribby
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:26 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: High Speed Electric Winch for
> Wakeskating
> 
> Got my new computer, was able to put my thoughts on
> paper. Let me know what you guys think. I have been
> obsessed with EV stuff. So rad..
> 
> High Speed Winch for Wakeskating
> 
>
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/shoredrivevb/Electric-Winch-1st-
> Draft.jpg
> 
> Trevor Scribner
> Small Craft Towing
> Virginia Beach, Va
> 757.285.4469
> 
> 
>        
>
________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! -
> their life, your story.
> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
> http://sims.yahoo.com/  
> 
> 



      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
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