EV Digest 6908
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: What batteries to try next?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Looking for contactor source
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Donor and Design Suggestions
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Looking for contactor source
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) BB600 ni-cads, Re: What batteries to try next?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Difference between ADC L91 and X91 6.7" motors?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Capstone micro-turbine
by Jim Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The batteries that failed after 500 miles were "deep cycle"
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Capstone micro-turbine
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
by Jem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Looking for contactor source
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) TdS Report #8: Photos - Lorax Photos
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Difference between ADC L91 and X91 6.7" motors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: IMPORTANT: Re: TS cell exchange...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
by Jem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: The batteries that failed after 500 miles were "deep cycle"
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: IMPORTANT: Re: TS cell exchange...
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Donor and Design Suggestions
by "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sure you're right. My (non-Adobe) .pdf reader didn't load more than the first
page the first time :-(
$25k is a lot. If a flooded lead pack w/ 20KWH only costs $1600 and **could**
last for 2 years, the Ni-Cd would need to last 30
years to break even with 15 packs of lead acids. Can Mi-Cd reasonably be
expected to last that long?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 12:40 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: What batteries to try next?
>
>
> The price sheet shows several different types of batteries, including NiCads.
> My comments were about the NiCads.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know of someone that has these contactors in stock?
LEV200 Series contactor
http://www.evperformance.com/pc-61-6-lev200-series-contactor.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 16, 2007, at 6:03 PM, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on
Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
So, any donor suggestions? I don't have the budget for exotic
lightweight batteries, so I am thinking this is going to take
something pretty capable to carry 800 odd pounds of passengers plus
800 to 1200 pounds of batteries without completely burying the
GVW. Am I asking for too much?
Thanks,
You might use 175 lbs, or 80 kg per person for your payload budget.
This seems to be a standard for virtually all passenger cars.
Mike Swift
Two things only the people anxiously desire, bread and circuses.
Decimus Junius Juvenalls
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last year I bought my LEV200A4NAF from Doug Hartley who just posted to the list
today after a couple months of no posts ;-)
Give him a shout, he used to stock them.
Mike,
Anchoarge, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Looking for contactor source
>
>
> Anyone know of someone that has these contactors in stock?
> LEV200 Series contactor
> http://www.evperformance.com/pc-61-6-lev200-series-contactor.aspx
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lon, Lee, Tehben and All,
-No comparison or availability info there, but good stuff
nonetheless. I'm
-curious about relative storage density for various battery
types. Anyone
-ever seen a chart?
The weight, cap is about 1.5x's lead for SAFT
Ni-cad batteries like David below talks about. For cells
it's about equal except ni-cads can be cycled much deeper
and not bothered much by cold. I hear they are about
$900/kwhr due to the dollar losing 1/2 it's value for SAFT
batteries. While these are great EV batts because they have
water cooling, automatic watering from SAFT, you need to
keep power to under 250 amps for long life.
These are different than the BB600 high power
cells made for jet starting where we get them surplus. There
are many types of Ni-cads like the above high and medium
power versions so make sure your kind is suitible for EV's.
But they put out 800 amps+
New ones are available from SAFT in Ga. I like
used, surplus for their lower price.
Those who actually use the BB600's are very happy
with them, especially good for EV's like lawn tractors as
not charging, leaving them sit does them no harm.
Most are scared of having to water 300 cell pack
they were planning but with a good charging regime, that can
be kept to every few months so not that bad in my opinion
for a batt that will probably las 20-40 yrs. My SAFT 14amphr
high power cells after 30+ yrs still put out rated power!!
-Lon Hull
-Superstructure Industries LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>I found this post with lots of good information about NiCad
from our
>esteemed David:
>
>
http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.html
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:59:09 -0500
>jerryd wrote:
>> Hi Lee and All, For the price I'd think 2 strings of
>> surplus BB600 Ni-cads would do you real well, especially
>> in the colder months in Minn! And you could sell your
>> battery balancer as it would no longer be needed, using
>> the money to pay for the new batteries or the Sunrise.
>> With 11,000 ni-cad cells out there and only about 1-2,000
>being used, it's time we put them to work!!
>
>Now that's an interesting plan. I *could* sell the Balancer
>, though I don't know if it would pay for a set of BB600
>cells.
Depends on where you find them. Like I said, just
one purchase Hump did netted 11,000 cells of which I've
found few people actually using them after they found out
they need to water 300 cells!! They were bought for $1/cell
plus shipping and need cell interconnects that cost about
$2-3 each to buy though you could make your own.
If I needed more I'd join the BB600 list and ask.
There are about 10,000 out there owned by people on the
list, let's get these into EV's!!
Lee needs 200 cells, can anyone give him a good deal
like costs plus a little?
Jerry Dycus
>
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Is it just the different voltage ratings (120V and 144V
respectively), or are there other differences? Power ratings are
about the same, correct?
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are two Capstone micro-turbines being sold on eBay, currently:
First, a grid-tied version:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230142117671
Second, what appears to be an HEV version (open frame):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260129576992
I'll be working on refurbishing and recommissioning a Capstone this
summer, with an eye towards using it as an APU/range-extender.
Regards,
Jim Davis
http://Metabus.org
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you had said 1984 I would suspect the standard death of most dc-dc
converters. Increased esr in the main switching capacitors until they
can't oscilate fast enough and it stops after 1 cycle. (measureing
capacitance is useless, need to measure esr.) On the dc-dc's I had to
fix all the time, If they were over 15 years old I just replaced all the
electrolytic caps and check the switching transistor, 90% of the time
that was it.
The other death of the dc-dc's I have fixed is the main switching
transistors gives up the ghost, failing shorted, usually taking out
other stuff along the way. Some units are designed so close on the caps
that if they drift a little it stops working, some are designed so
stressed on the primary switching element that 2 year service life is
normal. (this was the way of samsung monitors and chaep TV's for years)
I recommend the iota series.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I made a mistake while replacing my batteries. I used NAPA/Exide deep
cylce floodies and they died by the dozens. I mean - I had a bad battery
every two weeks or so. NAPA exchanged them no questions asked, but I got
tired of the unreliable situation and switched to Trojans.
Haven't had a problem since that day.
mm./
> See further comments below ....
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
>> I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
>> to be an issue. So, I didn't even bring them back.
> I
>> simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
>> be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
>> batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
>> months.
>>
>> Now, the tricky part. They have this "battery
>> tester." This is where the fun will begin. Of
>> course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter. If
>> the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
>> say - "Looks good to me." "Put them on a charger."
>> "They are fine."
>
> A tricky situation indeed!
>
> A warranty is intended as insurance against defects in
> materials or
> workmanship. It is not intended to cover abuse or
> misuse of the
> product.
> So, the first big question is whether these batteries
> failed due to
> defects, or abuse?
>
> If these are your typical marine or starting
> batteries, and not
> specifically "deep cycle", then it's not surprising
> that they failed
> after 500 miles. This would be a misapplication
> problem. Then the
> question is whether the *store* recommended them for
> your application,
> or whether *you* chose them for EV use without the
> store's advise or
> consent.
>
> If these really are deep cycle batteries,
>
> -> Yes absolutely, they truely are deep cycle and
> labeled as such ... Well, at least they are labeled
> and sold as deep cycle. I in fact believe that they
> were mislabeled by the manufacturer and they are in
> fact starting batteries. They make both models and
> they look identical on the outside.
>
>
>
> I'd get the manufacturer's
> data sheet and see what it lists for cycle life at
> various depths of
> discharge. They will have this data for deep cycle
> batteries, but not
> for marine/starting batteries.
>
> -> I tried to get it. No luck. But, they are deep
> cycle.
>
>
>
> A 12v flooded deep cycle battery will be
> rated for at least 200 cycles at 80% depth of
> discharge. Even with a
> 20-mile range on your EV, that would be over 4000
> miles.
>
> -> Yes. This is exactly what I expected. I only used
> 50% DOD. Never overcharged them. Never ran them
> under 50% DOD. Always charger them promptly. Still
> only 50 cycles.
>
>
>
> The tester for a deep-cycle battery is different than
> for a starting
> battery. If the store sells deep-cycles, they should
> have a tester for
> them. It will put a load on the battery (like 25 amps)
> and measure how
> many minutes it takes to fall to some cutoff point
> (like 10.5v for a
> 12v
> battery). This is the "reserve minutes" rating for the
> battery. If your
> batteries don't come close to meeting the reserve
> capacity, they are
> shot.
>
> -> I know that they should be tested for reserve
> capacity, but the tester I saw looks like it only
> tests CCA, not reserve capacity. I need to go back
> and discuss with them more.
>
>
> Lastly, did they die from abuse?
>
> -> I don't think so. Really, I knew their
> characteristics from the day I put them in. I treated
> them wery well, expecting 12-18 month of use. I only
> got 2 months.
>
>
> Did you drive until the EV would
> barely
> move,
>
> -> Absolutely not. I never took it over 8 miles.
>
> and reverse some cells?
>
> -> Never. I checked the resting voltage immediately
> after stopping and it ranged from 12.4 - 12.6,
> depending on traffic and speed for my 8 miles.
>
>
> Did you overcharge for hours on end until
> the batteries were low on water?
>
> -> No, checked the water. Water level is and always
> has been fine. Never added any. Never needed any.
>
>
> Did you "floor it" and draw huge
> currents that pulled the batteries far below 12 volts?
>
> -> With my wimpy controller and the traffic around
> here, very unlikely. I can't say exactly what the
> loaded voltage was, but I don't think it was below 12
> V on any given cell.
>
> My guess is that you got marine/starting batteries
> instead of
> deep-cycle
> batteries.
>
> -> That's what I think too, but they are lebeled as
> deep cycle, and I paid the higher price to get deep
> cycle.
>
> If the store was involved in this decision, I would
> suggest
> talking to the store manager to find a compromise.
>
> -> They knew what I was going to use them for.
>
> -> Still don't know what to do about all this.
>
> Tell him, "We
> screwed
> up. It looks like we picked the wrong battery for the
> job. Let's find a
> battery that will work; and I'll buy them from you if
> you contribute
> half the cost of the old batteries."
>
> I know that Sam's Club has true deep-cycle batteries;
> they are part of
> Walmart, so they can presumably get whatever Sam's
> Club can get.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quickly, LJ, jump on the hev one! LOL
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jun 17, 2007 8:05 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Capstone micro-turbine
>
>Here are two Capstone micro-turbines being sold on eBay, currently:
>
>First, a grid-tied version:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230142117671
>
>Second, what appears to be an HEV version (open frame):
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260129576992
>
>I'll be working on refurbishing and recommissioning a Capstone this
>summer, with an eye towards using it as an APU/range-extender.
>
>Regards,
>Jim Davis
>http://Metabus.org
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
>in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought that someone would at least have a comment, or something to say
about this proposed legislation. It's pretty ON Topic for the EV group.
Could have a lot of influence on the Majors. (GM,Toyota,etc)
Guess this could be like some new EV made of Unobtanium, i.e. until it
happens, why get excited about it...
Check it out at:
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029
OR the entire TEXT at:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is really awesome ! Thanks for bringing this up for the second time, as I
didn't click on it the first time. Here is a summary for those who want a quick
peak :
“Our transportation system in this country is out of date,” said Cantwell. “We
need to take advantage of new technologies to bring our cars and trucks up to
speed, save consumers money, and diversify our country off of fossil fuels. We
produce enough extra electricity right now to power most of the cars, pickup
trucks, and SUVs on our roads. It’s time we made plug-in hybrid technology
available to more Americans.”
“With the rapid industrialization of countries like India and China, the demand
for gasoline is unprecedented, and that’s translated into higher costs at the
pump,” Hatch said. “We’re already feeling the pain of that, and it’ll get worse
unless we start shifting our transportation sector away from liquid fuels and
on to electrons. The best way to motivate that shift is with these market-based
incentives, rather than Federal mandates.”
“Developing environmentally friendly fuel alternatives for vehicles is a
critical step we can take to reduce America’s consumption of foreign oil and
combat global climate change,” Obama said. “The technology to produce energy
alternatives exists, and we must provide the appropriate incentives to
encourage consumer and manufacturer use. Supporting energy efficient technology
and electric vehicles would also help the American auto industry regain its
competitive edge.”
----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 9:01:38 AM
Subject: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
Thought that someone would at least have a comment, or something to say
about this proposed legislation. It's pretty ON Topic for the EV group.
Could have a lot of influence on the Majors. (GM,Toyota,etc)
Guess this could be like some new EV made of Unobtanium, i.e. until it
happens, why get excited about it...
Check it out at:
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029
OR the entire TEXT at:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
11:55 AM EDT
I have 2 of the LEV200A4NAF left in stock (side mount, screw terminals for
the 12V coil).
Please email to me off-line if you would like to buy them.
Doug
Billetronique, Enr.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 12:15 AM
Subject: Looking for contactor source
Anyone know of someone that has these contactors in stock?
LEV200 Series contactor
http://www.evperformance.com/pc-61-6-lev200-series-contactor.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven, I emailed Maria Cantwell and passed the info along to several
organizations that will help get the message out and support the bill. The
time has come. George Swartz
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:01:38 -0700, Steven Lough wrote
> Thought that someone would at least have a comment, or something to
> say about this proposed legislation. It's pretty ON Topic for the
> EV group. Could have a lot of influence on the Majors. (GM,Toyota,etc)
>
> Guess this could be like some new EV made of Unobtanium, i.e. until
> it happens, why get excited about it...
>
> Check it out at:
> http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029
>
> OR the entire TEXT at:
> http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #8: Photos - Lorax Photos
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2007/photos_002.html
Lorax Photos
#12 Lorax
Methacton Electric Car Club
Methacton High School
Norristown, PA
The Lorax is named after Dr. Suess's character whose mission was to educate
people about the environment. The Methacton Electric Car Club educates the
public about alternative energy sources one person at a time at our school,
during field trips to nearby schools and at summer camps.
It started as a 1999 "Lomax" kit car conversion built by John Murphy and later
donated to the high school.
http://MethactonECC.org
The team photo from their web page.
Front view with the hood up.
The cylinders with fins are the two motors.
The diamond-plate box below the bumper holds some of the batteries.
Rear view.
Signage explains the different aspects of the vehicle to the public.
The panel with 18 half-circles are solar cells.
Ready to start the autocross.
Half-way through the autocross.
- - - -
The 2007 TdS Reports are actually about the "21st Century Automotive
Challenge" hosted by the The Eastern Electric Vehicle Club (EEVC).
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2007 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2007
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2007 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the "21st Century Automotive Challenge", see the web page at
http://www.EEVC.info
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian Hooper wrote:
Hi all,
Is it just the different voltage ratings (120V and 144V
respectively), or are there other differences? Power ratings are
about the same, correct?
The voltage rating on an electric motor is somewhat arbitrary; just one
point on a curve. There are many other combinations of voltage, current,
rpm, and horsepower they could have listed that are just as valid.
Yes, the mechanical power ratings of both motors are the same. The main
difference is that the X91 has more commutator bars and more armature
windings than the L91. The X91 produces more torque per amp, and less
RPM per volt. Thus, you need to apply more voltage to the X91 to get a
given rpm, and less current to get a given amount of torque.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee and all,
I do not mind to go through it. Though it is no my fault that we were
deceived by TS and I warned everyone about unknown risks, (and at the
end personally lost most the money since bought 96 90Ah cells worth
~$9600), I somehow feel responsible.
I don't hold Victor at fault at all. He was completely honest and open
about the deal. I know he wasn't doing this as a business, to make
money. He was not acting as a dealer or distributor; but just as a
conduit for collecting the orders and shipping them. There was no way
for him to know what would happen, and no way he could have prevented
the situation. There was no negligence on Victor's part.
The negligence was on Thundersky's part. They were responsible for
supplying good batteries, as ordered by the customer. They failed to do
so, and did not correct the error when it was brought to their attention.
Jukka who works with TS now, has more power and can pressure
management to take care of us for their own benefit (more buys in
future will outweigh their loss of ~$20k they will have to pay us,
but I'm not sure TS understands that (or wants to understand).
If I were in Thundersky's position, I think it would be a good business
decision to correct the problem. If they look at the list of people that
bought those cells, they would find many well respected, influential
people that can do a lot to help or hurt Thundersky's reputation and
future business prospects. These email records are archived, and will be
seen by anyone researching Thundersky in the future!
As far as I know only 90Ah cells were defective, and people who
bought those are entitled for compensation. I dare to think
compensation by supplying us good batteries we paid for will be
acceptable rather than paying us money and it is easier for TS to
swallow, but they have to offer options.
I agree. Jukka, it would be appropriate for Thundersky to make an offer.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I, too, am excited to see this legislation!
I want to bring up a couple possible concerns - but certainly not to hinder
getting something passed.
The tax credit increases per size of the vehicle. Is this good or bad?
Will this encourage more hummer PEDVs (plug-in electric drive vechicles)?
Or, will it mostly encourage more commercial PEDVs?
Also, the credit for conversions is pretty small - 50% with a cap at $2000.
But even at this level, it could spur a bunch of ICE-to-EV conversion
businesses. That would be fantastic!
The net of this - my feelings - is this is overall very good but is lacking
for the lower to lower-middle class who simply can't afford to do anything.
I don't know what percentage of autos that encompasses, but I think it's
large enough to merit attention. I don't claim to know how to solve this
either; just bringing up the point.
None the less, I support this and shall send a few emails to legislators.
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: 17 June, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
Thought that someone would at least have a comment, or something to say
about this proposed legislation. It's pretty ON Topic for the EV group.
Could have a lot of influence on the Majors. (GM,Toyota,etc)
Guess this could be like some new EV made of Unobtanium, i.e. until it
happens, why get excited about it...
Check it out at:
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029
OR the entire TEXT at:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. Very valid concerns actually. THe points you bring up makes the
difference between a fog screen and a real incentive. It doenst seem like a
good enough incentive to lower to mid income families. However it is a start as
you point out.
----- Original Message ----
From: Peri Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:30:06 AM
Subject: Re: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
I, too, am excited to see this legislation!
I want to bring up a couple possible concerns - but certainly not to hinder
getting something passed.
The tax credit increases per size of the vehicle. Is this good or bad?
Will this encourage more hummer PEDVs (plug-in electric drive vechicles)?
Or, will it mostly encourage more commercial PEDVs?
Also, the credit for conversions is pretty small - 50% with a cap at $2000.
But even at this level, it could spur a bunch of ICE-to-EV conversion
businesses. That would be fantastic!
The net of this - my feelings - is this is overall very good but is lacking
for the lower to lower-middle class who simply can't afford to do anything.
I don't know what percentage of autos that encompasses, but I think it's
large enough to merit attention. I don't claim to know how to solve this
either; just bringing up the point.
None the less, I support this and shall send a few emails to legislators.
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: 17 June, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's - No comments ??
> Thought that someone would at least have a comment, or something to say
> about this proposed legislation. It's pretty ON Topic for the EV group.
> Could have a lot of influence on the Majors. (GM,Toyota,etc)
>
> Guess this could be like some new EV made of Unobtanium, i.e. until it
> happens, why get excited about it...
>
> Check it out at:
> http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029
>
> OR the entire TEXT at:
> http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Deep cycle" has a rather fuzzy definition.... I've used various
types of "deep cycle" batteries in PV systems (very slow discharge
rates compared to EV's but similar cycle depths often). The "marine
deep cycle" batteries last two or 3 years at most in this type of
service, and I don't really consider them to be deep cycle batteries.
Trojan T105 golf carts (a lower rate version of the T145) last 5 or 6
years. Trojan L-16's last maybe 8 years with care. And the big
industrial Surrette batteries last maybe 15 or 20 with care. All of
these are a case of getting what you pay for -- the surrette's are
about 3 times the first cost per kWh as the marine deep cycle
batteries or golf cart batteries -- enough to prevent alot of people
from getting them, and instead always replacing their cheap batteries
for more cost over time.
Z
On 6/17/07, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I made a mistake while replacing my batteries. I used NAPA/Exide deep
cylce floodies and they died by the dozens. I mean - I had a bad battery
every two weeks or so. NAPA exchanged them no questions asked, but I got
tired of the unreliable situation and switched to Trojans.
Haven't had a problem since that day.
mm./
> See further comments below ....
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
>> I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
>> to be an issue. So, I didn't even bring them back.
> I
>> simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
>> be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
>> batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
>> months.
>>
>> Now, the tricky part. They have this "battery
>> tester." This is where the fun will begin. Of
>> course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter. If
>> the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
>> say - "Looks good to me." "Put them on a charger."
>> "They are fine."
>
> A tricky situation indeed!
>
> A warranty is intended as insurance against defects in
> materials or
> workmanship. It is not intended to cover abuse or
> misuse of the
> product.
> So, the first big question is whether these batteries
> failed due to
> defects, or abuse?
>
> If these are your typical marine or starting
> batteries, and not
> specifically "deep cycle", then it's not surprising
> that they failed
> after 500 miles. This would be a misapplication
> problem. Then the
> question is whether the *store* recommended them for
> your application,
> or whether *you* chose them for EV use without the
> store's advise or
> consent.
>
> If these really are deep cycle batteries,
>
> -> Yes absolutely, they truely are deep cycle and
> labeled as such ... Well, at least they are labeled
> and sold as deep cycle. I in fact believe that they
> were mislabeled by the manufacturer and they are in
> fact starting batteries. They make both models and
> they look identical on the outside.
>
>
>
> I'd get the manufacturer's
> data sheet and see what it lists for cycle life at
> various depths of
> discharge. They will have this data for deep cycle
> batteries, but not
> for marine/starting batteries.
>
> -> I tried to get it. No luck. But, they are deep
> cycle.
>
>
>
> A 12v flooded deep cycle battery will be
> rated for at least 200 cycles at 80% depth of
> discharge. Even with a
> 20-mile range on your EV, that would be over 4000
> miles.
>
> -> Yes. This is exactly what I expected. I only used
> 50% DOD. Never overcharged them. Never ran them
> under 50% DOD. Always charger them promptly. Still
> only 50 cycles.
>
>
>
> The tester for a deep-cycle battery is different than
> for a starting
> battery. If the store sells deep-cycles, they should
> have a tester for
> them. It will put a load on the battery (like 25 amps)
> and measure how
> many minutes it takes to fall to some cutoff point
> (like 10.5v for a
> 12v
> battery). This is the "reserve minutes" rating for the
> battery. If your
> batteries don't come close to meeting the reserve
> capacity, they are
> shot.
>
> -> I know that they should be tested for reserve
> capacity, but the tester I saw looks like it only
> tests CCA, not reserve capacity. I need to go back
> and discuss with them more.
>
>
> Lastly, did they die from abuse?
>
> -> I don't think so. Really, I knew their
> characteristics from the day I put them in. I treated
> them wery well, expecting 12-18 month of use. I only
> got 2 months.
>
>
> Did you drive until the EV would
> barely
> move,
>
> -> Absolutely not. I never took it over 8 miles.
>
> and reverse some cells?
>
> -> Never. I checked the resting voltage immediately
> after stopping and it ranged from 12.4 - 12.6,
> depending on traffic and speed for my 8 miles.
>
>
> Did you overcharge for hours on end until
> the batteries were low on water?
>
> -> No, checked the water. Water level is and always
> has been fine. Never added any. Never needed any.
>
>
> Did you "floor it" and draw huge
> currents that pulled the batteries far below 12 volts?
>
> -> With my wimpy controller and the traffic around
> here, very unlikely. I can't say exactly what the
> loaded voltage was, but I don't think it was below 12
> V on any given cell.
>
> My guess is that you got marine/starting batteries
> instead of
> deep-cycle
> batteries.
>
> -> That's what I think too, but they are lebeled as
> deep cycle, and I paid the higher price to get deep
> cycle.
>
> If the store was involved in this decision, I would
> suggest
> talking to the store manager to find a compromise.
>
> -> They knew what I was going to use them for.
>
> -> Still don't know what to do about all this.
>
> Tell him, "We
> screwed
> up. It looks like we picked the wrong battery for the
> job. Let's find a
> battery that will work; and I'll buy them from you if
> you contribute
> half the cost of the old batteries."
>
> I know that Sam's Club has true deep-cycle batteries;
> they are part of
> Walmart, so they can presumably get whatever Sam's
> Club can get.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're absolutely right Lee.
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of companies that are too unwilling to
do the right thing.
I mentioned a long while back the case of my steamboat friend's steam-driven
genset setup where he ordered a permanent magnet alternator from one of the
foremost online presences promoting these and I believe is the manufacturer
of them. When the $350 alternator didn't live up to its claims, was
inefficient and got way too hot in 5 minutes of testing, we contacted the
owner of the company. Rather than accept any responsibility or offer
remedy, he insisted that his product was good, that his advertising not
misleading (claimed efficiency increased the more you load it and that it
worked great at low speeds---the curves were also very misleading) and that
we could basically go f**k ourselves. The guy could care less that we'd
perhaps spread this story across the internet (which I did).
OTOH, there are some happy endings where companies even in the most
notorious lemon product industries do the right thing. Suffice it to say
that a certain motor coach vendor a number of years ago gave nearly all the
money back in the case of a lemon motorhome owned by my parents---realize
that there are no lemon laws for these products and that they have no one to
answer to! The attorney for my parents cautioned that they'd never get a
money settlement...yet they did. The reason the company did the right
thing? Publicly traded companies have online message boards...I began
frequenting that board telling them that their investment had quality issues
and gave examples. I also tipped the local newspaper to the large number of
elderly folks with lemons that were spending their days camped out at the
factory trying to get satisfaction---they sent a reporter immediately and
did a front page story on it...unfortunately the story became a big PR fluff
piece for the company---oh yeah, that's when Ijumped onto the message boards
because they were all cheering the good publicity...
The company ended up doing the right thing with my folks and I give them
credit for that. They listened. They acted. They realized that bad
publicity they could not afford and that they could get away with poor
quality for awhile, but luck runs out. To show their concern about
publicity, they even put words into the agreement that their son would never
write about them on the internet and that my folks would never buy another
motorhome from them again...like that is really enforceable.
I would guess they cleaned up their quality by now as they've done very
well.
-MT
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 9:52 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Re: TS cell exchange...
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee and all,
>
> I do not mind to go through it. Though it is no my fault that we were
> deceived by TS and I warned everyone about unknown risks, (and at the
> end personally lost most the money since bought 96 90Ah cells worth
> ~$9600), I somehow feel responsible.
I don't hold Victor at fault at all. He was completely honest and open
about the deal. I know he wasn't doing this as a business, to make
money. He was not acting as a dealer or distributor; but just as a
conduit for collecting the orders and shipping them. There was no way
for him to know what would happen, and no way he could have prevented
the situation. There was no negligence on Victor's part.
The negligence was on Thundersky's part. They were responsible for
supplying good batteries, as ordered by the customer. They failed to do
so, and did not correct the error when it was brought to their attention.
> Jukka who works with TS now, has more power and can pressure
> management to take care of us for their own benefit (more buys in
> future will outweigh their loss of ~$20k they will have to pay us,
> but I'm not sure TS understands that (or wants to understand).
If I were in Thundersky's position, I think it would be a good business
decision to correct the problem. If they look at the list of people that
bought those cells, they would find many well respected, influential
people that can do a lot to help or hurt Thundersky's reputation and
future business prospects. These email records are archived, and will be
seen by anyone researching Thundersky in the future!
> As far as I know only 90Ah cells were defective, and people who
> bought those are entitled for compensation. I dare to think
> compensation by supplying us good batteries we paid for will be
> acceptable rather than paying us money and it is easier for TS to
> swallow, but they have to offer options.
I agree. Jukka, it would be appropriate for Thundersky to make an offer.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm converting a 1998 Jetta. It is modeled after this one:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/680
Its curb weight starts out fairly decent (2700lbs), has modern
features; driver and pass airbags, sunroof, keyless entry, side impact
beams, and quite a bit of volume (for a light car) for passengers and
batts. I'm keeping my A/C too.
With four adults, you would be over the GVWR, though. I just have 2
small boys that weigh < 50lbs.
Brian
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
On 6/16/07, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi folks,
I have been kicking around the idea of building another EV. My Civic
conversion is okay as a daily commuter, but in hindsight I have come
to realize that simple flooded lead-acid batteries are far more cost
effective and forgiving than AGMs and gel-cells. Also, my situation
has changed a bit and a four seater would be a better match to my
needs than a two seater. I have been trying to put together a
profile of my actual needs and get some idea of what kind of vehicle
would make a suitable donor. Here are my specs for the resulting EV:
4 passenger (driver plus 3), ideally giving each their own door,
though I guess an extended cab pickup with jump seats might work
since the distances would be fairly short.
30-40 mile useable range at city street speeds without excessively
risking battery life.
Top speed of at least 70 mph for occasional free way travel.
Acceleration at least equal to a fully loaded mini van.
Able to be air conditioned and heated as needed for comfort.
New enough to have airbags and side impact beams.
So, any donor suggestions? I don't have the budget for exotic
lightweight batteries, so I am thinking this is going to take
something pretty capable to carry 800 odd pounds of passengers plus
800 to 1200 pounds of batteries without completely burying the
GVW. Am I asking for too much?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
