EV Digest 7017
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) questions
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: todd pc25lv dc-dc converter specs
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Passive (Parallel/Serial) Balancing
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: conversion question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: conversion question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: conversion question
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: questions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) PM Motor Short Blown Controller?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Bringing a TEVan back to life
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bringing a TEVan back to life
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Another, fairer comparison
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Another, fairer comparison
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Balancing NiCad batteries?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AGM vs Gel
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Passive (Parallel/Serial) Balancing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: conversion question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry about the last message - seems windows live hotmail doesn't support
plain text emails (nice)...
Does anyone know if a todd pc25lv dc-dc converter can be used up to 144
volts, or is 120 the limit?
Also, does running an electric motor (prestolite, ADC, etc.) used in EVs at
a higher pack voltage
make it more "powerful" as well as extend the range?
CAN you run a prestolite (the 4002) at 144 volts? Will that kill or shorten
the life of the motor?
Do they still make Prestolite motors? Can they be rebuilt (new brushes, i
assume)?
Thx, Mike
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 11, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Michael Mohlere wrote:
Anyone know if a todd pc25lv can be used on a 144 volt pack? thx, mike
There are not many of those out there. Later units where turned down
into PC20LV models. What pisses them off the most is a low input
voltage. There is one in the Rabbit Pickup I built (Don's still I
believe.)
The absolute maximum voltage one of these should ever see is 200
volts DC. It would be better if you can keep it under 190 volts. You
should be fine with a 144 volt pack provided the charging voltage
does not exceed that. (or if it ever even might the Todd has been
disconnected first)
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Davis wrote:
"I have a string of 24 (12v, gel Size 31, 100ahC/20) which is massively
out-of-balance (with individual OCV measurements ranging from 11.0 to
12.8). Individual charging with my single ~10a 12v charger is a slow
process. I don't want to put the string on my 10kw 330v charger until my
string is balanced. I am in no hurry (I have other things to work on), so
I was wondering...Can I balance this string passively, over time?Can I leave
the series connectors in place, disconnect the pack, and add parallel
connectors to make one huge 12v amp-bucket? Would this pack then naturally
balance itself over time?"
Mick says: Alan Brinkman's reply is correct. You would first need to
disconnect all of the series cables then connect the batteries all in
parallel--otherwise you'll see sparks and other pyrotechnics. Once connected
in parallel, the voltage for each monobloc would converge with that of the
others. Voltage convergence occurs faster than state of charge convergence,
however, so you'd want to take some readings of the amperage transfer that's
going on (I suggest using a clamp around DC ammeter for this) and leave the
monoblocs in parallel until the amperage transfer goes very small.
Mick says: Once those batteries are disconnected from parallel and placed
back in series, however, the "underachievers" would in short order begin
slumping in voltage relative to the overachievers. If one could quickly
connect all the batteries in parallel then back in series, then back in
parallel--that would theoretically maintain equalization round the clock,
but this is of course impractical and you need the batteries to be connected
in series all the time in order to use them.
Mick says: The BattEQ(TM) product that I distribute achieves 24/7
equalization without the need to ever break the series string of batteries.
By switching a bank of capacitors quickly from monobloc to monobloc, BattEQ
acts like an electrical flywheel, soaking up excess energy from the
overachievers and then dumping that energy into the underachievers. A batch
of balancers for the Jim Davis battery string described above would retail
for about $1,600. Contact me off list if you'd like to receive a discounted
price quote including delivery to your specified zip code.
Other end users, bona fide retailers, and OEMs may also contact me to
discuss a BattEQ solution for your needs. For more information, visit my
BattEQ documents on the Top Floor of my website. I extend a 30 day return
privilege on all of my BattEQ quotes, and there have been no returns from my
clients so far. That's because these gizmos work and they do what we say.
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did NOT say the Evette doesn't maneuver well at high speeds, I said it
only has the "advantage" at low speeds. Plenty of four wheeled vehicle
handle well at high speeds, have you never heard the term "Corners like
it's on rails"?
Even if it is super easy to park, people have been managing to park four
wheeled cars for over a century now, so it's not a big advantage. Parking
lots are designed for four wheeled vehicles. People even manage to
parallel park them.
> Hi Peter,
>
> In your dreans. The EVette not only maneuvers at low speeds, it turns
> very well at higher speeds as well. A reporter from the Palm Beach Post
> took a ride in it and wrote " Gut wrenching turns ".Its not a little
> easier to park, its a lot easier to park. If a conversion has 2400lbs of
> batteries it most likely has at least 3000lbs of car,5400lbs total that
> sounds more like a tank!
>
> Tom Sines T
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 12:17 PM
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: RE: conversion question
>>
>>Actually, they have four wheeled EVs that surpass the Evette when it
>> comes
>>to maneuverabilty. They have fork lifts that can spin in place, AND move
>>directly sideways, at any angle, etc.
>>
>>Besides, the Evetts advantages are only at really low speeds, where they
>>don't really matter that much. Sure it might be a little easier to park,
>>but parking lots are designed for existing vehicles, so it's no real
>>advantage.
>>
>>There are conversions out there that carry over 2400 lbs of batteries. I
>>believe the number you have mentioned for the Evett is 1600 lbs?
>>
>>Any custom EV can be built to carry lots of batteries. Custom Four
>>wheeled ones can do it as well or better than Evette. It's simple math,
>>any given axle will have a maximum weight capacity. Twice as many axles
>>equals twice as much weight.
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We could argue this all day, but the real issue is, you will never get
>>> as
>>> many batteries in a conversion as the Evette,and a 4 wheel car can`t
>>> come
>>> close to the maneuverability of the Evette. Agree or disagree.
>>>
>>> Tom Sines
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 1:11 AM
>>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>>Subject: RE: conversion question
>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree. I can push my car easily with one hand of a level
>>>>>> street, I don`t think you can do that with a standard car.
>>>>
>>>>I just pushed my '81 300SD with one hand earlier today - certainly not
>>>> a
>>>> very
>>>>*quantitative* measurement of what it takes to move an old luxury
>>>> diesel.
>>>> You
>>>>probably haven't read the list before or you'd have remembered numerous
>>>> posts
>>>>on this - the most thorough converters minimize rolling resistance to
>>>> the
>>>> point
>>>>of taking a "lady's gloved finger" to move a lead sled!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> PeoplePC Online
>>> A better way to Internet
>>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>>wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>>legalistic signature is void.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your insistance that the Evette is the perfect EV is what is bringing out
the nay sayers.
The Evette is cool, but it's not perfect.
The few advantages it has simply don't make that much difference in
practical terms and the disadvantages are pretty glaring.
> Hi Michael,
>
> I feel like Jesus , I bring good news, and you try to knock me off,
> although I know some of you get it. See ya.
>
> Tom Sines
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 11:34 AM
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: RE: conversion question
>>
>>
>>> In your dreans. The EVette not only maneuvers at low
>>> speeds, it turns very well at higher speeds as well.
>>
>>want to prove that statement? if so, my offer still stands. attend an
>> SCCA
>>autocross. if you can finish in the top 50% i'll gladly pay your entry
>> fee.
>>
>>sorry, the opinion of some local newspaper reporter, or your own
>> exclamation
>>that it's fun to drive won't convince me that it actually handles well.
>>
>>m.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
I've read mostly about AC systems, but should I be looking for high
voltage and low Ah or vice versa?
The only AC systems available are high voltage; so you pretty much have
to use about 300v worth of batteries to use one.
DC systems are available in any voltage. Anything from 72v to 300v is
possible.
To set the record straight, minimum DC input voltage for AC systems
I know about is:
Siemens - 110 VDC
EVI-200 - 100 VDC
TIM400/600 - 80 VDC.
BRUSA 51x/52x ones - 120 VDC
The drives sure will function at these input voltages, just
performance and efficiency will be very poor, much worse than
at >300 VDC in (or at least >240VDC or so).
So the statement that "you pretty much have to use about 300V worth
of batteries) is not accurate.
BTW, Siemens use to make Simovert 96VDC nominal 6SV-1 inverters
(about 60...160VDC range) for VW City STROMer OEM EVs:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160
I don't offer these because these days no one wants 22kW limited
inverter, but can get them if one interested.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I'm working from memory here, so perhaps I am wrong, but even it if
is 1.15 that works out to 87% efficient which is a long way from 71%.
> On 7/11/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Coulombic efficiency (Ah in to Ah out) for some different battery
>> types;
>> >
>> > Lead acid (AGM) up to 90%
>> > Lithium (Thundersky) 100%
>> > NiCad 71%
>> > NiMh 66%
>> >
>>
>> Where did you come up with these figures?
>> >From what I've read, the Coulombic efficiency of Saft NiCads is almost
>> exactly 90%. In fact that is how Saft specifies charging them, you put
>> back in exactly 110% of what you took out.
>
> Which Saft NiCads are you talking about?
> The STM5-100 most commonly used in EVs have a charge coefficient of
> 1.15. These are special "low maintenance" monoblocks, so I would
> expect more basic batteries such as the aircraft starter type (BB600?)
> to be worse from that point of view.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really don't think you know what you are talking about, but I won't argue
with you about it as that is pointless!
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: RE: conversion question
Hi,
We could argue this all day, but the real issue is, you will never get as
many batteries in a conversion as the Evette,and a 4 wheel car can`t come
close to the maneuverability of the Evette. Agree or disagree.
Tom Sines
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jul 11, 2007 1:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: conversion question
I disagree. I can push my car easily with one hand of a level
street, I don`t think you can do that with a standard car.
I just pushed my '81 300SD with one hand earlier today - certainly not a
very
*quantitative* measurement of what it takes to move an old luxury diesel.
You
probably haven't read the list before or you'd have remembered numerous
posts
on this - the most thorough converters minimize rolling resistance to the
point
of taking a "lady's gloved finger" to move a lead sled!
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Does anyone know if a todd pc25lv dc-dc converter
> can be used up to 144
> volts, or is 120 the limit?
No clue, but DCP (used to) and Belktronix (new entry
to the market) also make _fine_ DCDCs that fxn at this
voltage.
>
> Also, does running an electric motor (prestolite,
> ADC, etc.) used in EVs at
> a higher pack voltage
> make it more "powerful" as well as extend the range?
Running at higher voltages makes a motor spin faster.
Higher voltages reduce the amps you draw. Thus, one
could look at it as extending the range, I suppose,
but it's more a function of the batteries, not
anything the motor is doing per se.
>
> CAN you run a prestolite (the 4002) at 144 volts?
> Will that kill or shorten
> the life of the motor?
>
Dunno.' Sorry.
> Do they still make Prestolite motors? Can they be
> rebuilt (new brushes, i
> assume)?
My understanding is that the Prestolites eventually
became? ADC motors, or at least ADC is patterned off
of them, but I can't remember where I heard that.
Many people still use them, so I'm assuming that
brushes, other replacement parts still exist.
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Short version. My lawnbott melted the wires on the
motor to the frame and internally in the top of the
motor. They were both touching eachother at multiple
points. The magnets look like they have bubbles and it
smells like charcoal and everythign in the motor is
black. The motor 3100 rpms or so 24 volts 80 watts.
They sent me a new motor and I hooked it up. It still
shuts down when it gets to the phase that says
"starting blade". Could the wires that shorted out
eaten the controller? The fuses are fine and nothing
is obviously melted/burnt/scorched/burst on the
silicon. The whole thing probably goes back friday but
just trying to see what the damage might be.
My experiences thus far.
I just got a lawnbott evolution about 2 1/2 weeks ago.
Why?
-Heart Condition
-Texas Heat
-Didnt' want to buy a gas tractor
-Failed conversion to electric of previous rider
-Even if I did do gas I'd rather be riding my bike or
anything but mowing.
First I mowed an area and set it loose with a
perimiter wire made up of 60 ft of speaker wire. It
got stuck a few times because of indentations in my
yard but did well enough. I shut it down when it got
about 95% of it mowed.
A few days later used about 750 ft of wire to setup
another area. It got stuck a number of times and gave
a "too high grass" error even though the grass wasn't
higher then the 4" limit.
After trimming the grass more I let it loose again and
it just died after probably 30 to 45 minutes. Found it
blew the 20 amp fuse during that time noted the blade
motor had missing insulation at a corner and covered
it. Had contacted the reseller and they thought it
might still have a 15 and suggested upgraded to the 20
and I should be set.
Next day ran it some more and left it mowing for about
30 minutes. It just died. Didn't blow the fuse and it
had that nice charcoal smell. When trying to restart
it backs out, synchs to the perimeter wire, says
"starting blade" and boom dead.
Got sent a new mower blade fedex and installed it.
Same problem. So around 2 hours of use and I'm outta
luck. So for the past couple weeks I pay some guy $140
a week to mow the lawn. Not a long term solution
hopefully I just got a bad bott, motor or did
something stupid and it'll get fixed because paying
someone would cost me 3k or so a year.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how many wh of
coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that ended up as
213 wh at your car's wheels.
Bill Dennis
If you want a truly fair comparison you also need to account for how
much energy was spent pumping oil out of the ground, refining it,
transporting it, storing it, and finally pumping it into your prius.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tonight I was approached by a local EV club member.
He has 2 TEVans (93-94 ?) that have been sitting for
about 5 years. He bought them at an auction several
years ago. They have the Edison batteries in them. I
hear they are quite valuable. He asked me to ask
around to find out the best way to get at least one of
them up and running assuming it ran fine 5 years ago,
and has simply been sitting for 5 years. I assume the
batteries are completely flat, but I have also heard
that all you have to do is cycle them a few times
(with what algorithm though, how many times) to get
them going.
What is one of these worth in running vs non-running
condition? Maybe he will just sell as-is ...
Thanks,
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be aware that this R value is marketing bullshit.
When you dig into the fine print, you will find that this R 14.5 is the
value of this foil-foam insulation *plus* the normal 4" air space found
inside a typical ceiling. The air provides almost all the insulation;
their cheap foam and bubble pack does almost nothing.
:) I kinda gathered that... I should have found the fine print before posting.
Anyway I guess I am trying to find out either what R-value is
recommended or what foam people choose to use?? Here where I live in
the south of Alaska it rarely gets below 0ºF. Winter temps average
between 17ºF and 27ºF... no I'm not kidding :P
I have to decide what to use before I can start mocking up by batt
boxes so I get the dimensions right.
Thanks everyone,
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, I didn't say "fairest", just "fairer" :)
Yes, the next step would be to then add the energy it took to get the
oil out of the ground, shipped the refinery, refined and transported to
the gas station. For electricity, as an example, add the energy to get
the coal out of the ground and transported to the power plant. Then
you'd have true well-to-wheels comparison, for efficiency at least.
Pollution is another calculation. There are, in the archives,
references to a few of these studies.
Bill Dennis
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
On 7/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how many
wh of
coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that ended up as
213 wh at your car's wheels.
Bill Dennis
If you want a truly fair comparison you also need to account for how
much energy was spent pumping oil out of the ground, refining it,
transporting it, storing it, and finally pumping it into your prius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no idea what the price would be becuase their is two ways to
look at it. It's just a bunch of old electronics and an electric motor
with a set of dead batteries. Or someone else may see it as a token
from the days when production EVs roamed California. However, if it is
in running condition it is almost certain that it'll be worth quite a
bit.Probably 40k or something.
On 7/11/07, Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Tonight I was approached by a local EV club member.
He has 2 TEVans (93-94 ?) that have been sitting for
about 5 years. He bought them at an auction several
years ago. They have the Edison batteries in them. I
hear they are quite valuable. He asked me to ask
around to find out the best way to get at least one of
them up and running assuming it ran fine 5 years ago,
and has simply been sitting for 5 years. I assume the
batteries are completely flat, but I have also heard
that all you have to do is cycle them a few times
(with what algorithm though, how many times) to get
them going.
What is one of these worth in running vs non-running
condition? Maybe he will just sell as-is ...
Thanks,
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my previous post, I forgot to add, getting the electricity over the
transmission lines to your home, plus the efficiency of your charger,
plus probably a couple other steps.
And for truly depressing efficiency numbers, consider how much of that
energy actually ends up moving you, a single passenger in the vehicle.
Go to Uve's Calculator and see how many watthours/mile it calculates
for your empty car. Then add your weight, perhaps 200 pounds, and do
the calculation again. You'll come up with a percentage difference.
Multiply that by the well-to-wheels efficiency you came up with, let's
say 16%, and you find that you end up using 1% or less of the original
energy contents of the fueld to move yourself.
Bill Dennis
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
On 7/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how many
wh of
coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that ended up as
213 wh at your car's wheels.
Bill Dennis
If you want a truly fair comparison you also need to account for how
much energy was spent pumping oil out of the ground, refining it,
transporting it, storing it, and finally pumping it into your prius.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Toyota says what they claim to be the efficiency of gasoline production:
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2005/fall/hybridorhydrogen.html
According to them it's 79% efficient.
And just for humour, they put the efficiency of their car to be 38%
while Honda claims an efficiency of 60% !!! I guess Honda found a
secret potion. Anyhow, it still doesn't amount to the vehicel
efficiency of an electric car! (around 75%)
On 7/11/07, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In my previous post, I forgot to add, getting the electricity over the
transmission lines to your home, plus the efficiency of your charger,
plus probably a couple other steps.
And for truly depressing efficiency numbers, consider how much of that
energy actually ends up moving you, a single passenger in the vehicle.
Go to Uve's Calculator and see how many watthours/mile it calculates
for your empty car. Then add your weight, perhaps 200 pounds, and do
the calculation again. You'll come up with a percentage difference.
Multiply that by the well-to-wheels efficiency you came up with, let's
say 16%, and you find that you end up using 1% or less of the original
energy contents of the fueld to move yourself.
Bill Dennis
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> On 7/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how many
>> wh of
>> coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that ended up as
>> 213 wh at your car's wheels.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>
> If you want a truly fair comparison you also need to account for how
> much energy was spent pumping oil out of the ground, refining it,
> transporting it, storing it, and finally pumping it into your prius.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Which shows what a good conversion a prius would make!
602 wh/mile with a ~30% eff drive train(being generous) is 180wh/mile at
the road.
Working backwards thru a hypothetical EV drive train of 85% eff yields
211Wh/mile.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, i didn't see this response. yes what he said...except...
"But, for a really fairer comparison, you need to determine how many wh of
coal or oil or gas was burned to create the electricity that ended up as
213 wh at your car's wheels."
Unless you have sufficient solar or hydro. or ...
To be really fair I guess we have to consider the largest single user of
electricity in california are the refineries.
The Department of energy determined and posted that it takes ~12kwh to
refine a gallon of gas.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Concur.
Keep them cool.
Overcharge them plenty.
No regulators needed.
Keep them full of water.
Don't break the cases.
You should be fine for years.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Balancing NiCad batteries?
> On 10 Jul 2007 at 13:33, Jerry McIntire wrote:
>
> > SAFT NiCad batteries ...
>
> You have some fine batteries there. If you ever want to sell them, I'll
be
> waiting with cash in hand, assuming they haven't been heavily abused or
> cycled to death. Seriously.
>
> (No, I don't particularly want the van they came in. ;-)
>
> They are pretty sturdy and can withstand reasonable amounts of
equalization
> (read : they like to gas freely). You really don't need any kind of
> balancers or regulators, IMO. The quick and easy way to charge them is to
> buy a Brusa charger with the Saft profile. That's not a particularly
cheap
> way to charge them, however. ;-)
>
> They love cold and lose very little capacity. The main thing to watch out
> for is heat. Try not to charge or discharge at temperatures above 40 deg
> C. Holding to 35 deg C is even better, if you can do it. Consistent
> operation at 50 deg C will cut your cycle life in half. These are great
> for Massachusetts, but probably not the best choice for Arizona or
Southern
> California.
>
> You can grab the charging instructions and user manual for those batteries
> in the EVDL library :
>
> http://www.evdl.org/lib/
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Concur.
AGMs need 100 % of the AHr taken out replaced on the next cycle plus a
little equalization and the self discharge AHr. Typically the sum of the
equalization and self discharge is significantly less than two AHr on an
Optima or Hawker.
Flooded batteries have a higher need for equalization and a higher self
discharge causing it to require more overcharge to keep it healthy. The
overcharge and water requirements increase with age.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
>
>
>
> >From: Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Re: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
> >Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:55:32 -0700
> >
> >I would assume this is yet another place that Peukert comes back to kick
> >your butt. For example, it looks like a 150Ah Trojan J150 will only put
> >out ~82Ah at 100A discharge. However, when you go to charge it back up
> >you're going to need to put 150Ah plus back into it.
>
> No, you're not. The peukert effect prevents you from extracting the rated
> charge, but you only have to put back the charge you took out ( plus a
> percentage of loss). So, in your example, you have to put back 82 AH plus
> some extra for charging inefficiency of the battery.
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
> Assuming the charge process is ~90% efficient (best case) you
> >are looking at 50% overall efficiency. Compare that to a 55Ah Optima
D34
> >which still gives you 47Ah at 100A. With 90% charging efficiency (maybe
> >more realistic, equalize by regulators not overcharging) you are looking
> >at something more around 77% overall efficiency.
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >On Jul 11, 2007, at 3:11 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >>Efficiency depends on how full you fill them and how much power you
waste
> >>equalizing them (equalization current is less than 0% efficient)
> >>
> >>If you keep the SOC below the 80% or so (when they start gassing) they
> >>/can/ be 90+% efficient.
> >>
> >>However typical charging, to 100% SOC plus equalization, usually works
> >>out
> >>to 75% or less, depending on how old the batteries are, how often and
how
> >>much you equalize, etc.
> >>
> >>Also, just to confuse things, some people talk about charging
efficiency
> >>but only refer to columbic(sp?) efficiency, I.e. Amps in vs Amps out,
and
> >>totally ignore the voltage difference between charge and discharge.
> >>
> >>>I've always heard lead-acid battery efficiency to be around 80-85% for
> >>>flooded and ~90% on AGMs. I never hear at what current though.....
> >>>
> >>>On 7/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>I seem to recall a spec sheet once saying that at only 100A the lead
> >>>>acid battery was only 50% efficient. are lead acids really that
> >>>>inefficient for EV use?
> >>>>do they really waste that much at only 100A?
> >>>>
> >>>>and by implication does that mean a much more efficient battery type
> >>>>like A123 can do just as good with half the capacity
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Dan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> >>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever
> >>I
> >>wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> >>legalistic signature is void.
> >>
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://newlivehotmail.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Jul 2007 at 16:03, Tehben Dean wrote:
> So If I ran gels to 100%DOD I would have more life than AGM's at 50%DOD???
Careful! You can assume only that those figures apply to East Penn
batteries - and only under their specific lab conditions.
That said, East Penn gel batteries do have a reputation for fairly long
life. I think one reason is that they are severely acid starved. A 100%
discharge is, from the view of the electrodes, only about an 80% discharge.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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On 11 Jul 2007 at 1:55, Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
> I would assume this is yet another place that Peukert comes back to
> kick your butt. For example, it looks like a 150Ah Trojan J150 will
> only put out ~82Ah at 100A discharge. However, when you go to charge
> it back up you're going to need to put 150Ah plus back into it.
Not so. Except for losses to heat from internal resistance, efficiency is
about the same. If you withdraw 82ah, you'll replace 82ah (plus some for
the heat and electrolysis during the absorption stage).
A battery cycled below the absorption phase (say, 20%SOC to 80%SOC) is
pretty close to 100% efficient. Regrettably, this isn't a viable regimen.
It needs that final 20% or it will eventually die of undercharging.
Peukert effect is frequently misunderstood. Think about it this way.
Capacity is certainly lower at 100 amps than at 25 amps. But if you
discharge to "flat" at 100 amps, you can then continue discharging at 25
amps for quite a bit longer. That's an important key to understanding
what's going on.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Jul 2007 at 3:16, Matthew Chan wrote:
> Is it worth
> getting a programmable charger?
Absolutely. A smart charger will pay you back many times over the life of
your EV. It reduces your operating costs, thanks to longer cycle life for
the battery.
> there was one company,
> called power battery, which offered a battery that seemed identical to
> the trojan T-105s. Should I bite? They're 20 dollars cheaper per unit,
> 2 pounds heavier, same rated capacity and size.
I don't know anything about that company. However, there are quite a few
cheap Chinese-made batteries being imported these days. No doubt some of
these are all right, but caution would be a very good idea.
US Battery products are usually priced lower than Trojan batteries, BTW. In
my experience, USBMC makes good quality batteries. YMMV.
> Lastly, where are the contactors usually placed in a system? Are they
> between the battery pack and the controller?
I certainly hope so!
> I'd be using 144VDC, with who knows how many amps max. Which
> should I get? Are industrial contactors an option?
Albright and Kilovac make good contactors.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Jul 2007 at 8:42, Jim Davis wrote:
> Can I leave the series connectors in place, disconnect the pack, and add
> parallel connectors to make one huge 12v amp-bucket? Would this pack then
> naturally balance itself over time?
That will work, but it will take weeks or even months, and the end result
will be a bunch of pathologically undercharged (and sulfated) batteries.
Connect them in parallel (best to parallel no more than about 6 if possible)
and then charge them that way with a good, smart automatic charger.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Jul 2007 at 19:00, Tom S. wrote:
> I can push my car easily with one hand of a level street, I don`t
> think you can do that with a standard car.
Sure you can, if it's set up right. That's one criterion of a successful EV
conversion.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
I'll be away for the next few day at a conference, but I guess I need
to ask this question.
Is vehicle range a function of voltage, amperage, or both in a DC
system? I'm not sure if I should go with the 72 or the 144 V set. 72
would definitely be safer, but wouldn't the increased amperage require
thicker wires?
Also, I completed the cost calculations today, and it came out to over
12 000 CDN, which is still like 11 500 USD. This is a bit more than I
had hoped. The EV components themselves only cost about 10 000 CDN,
but the other things to be changed like the suspension and the
drivetrain caused me to go over. I'm pretty hesitant about building it
with this frame now.
I think Zeke's suggestion was very good, and Peter's point about
"free" not necessarily being "free" is also very valid. I'll have to
wait for the dealer's specifications first but I'll probably go with a
Toyota Corolla if we change donors. Let's pull some stats on the 1998
Toyota Corolla...
8th Generation:
ICE engine: 89kW max. (Aluminum)
carrying capacity: 1117 lbs max.
pre-conversion curb weight: 2420lbs
165Nm
0.31 coefficient drag.
What do you guys think? Can I manage to build a car with this?
I can also pull the stats on a few other cars as well. I'd prefer to
keep it to relatively common cars around toronto though. That pretty
much means japanese hondas or toyotas. There's a few other "common"
cars, but I see toyota corolla/camry and honda civics the most often
by far.
Thanks for the detailed replies guys,
Matt
--- End Message ---
