EV Digest 7067
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Toyota Plug in Prius Video
by "Ian Page-Echols" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Fun with trees and Re: Sebring EV info needed
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Porsche to make hybrids
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Indicator lamps for contactor operation
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Upgrading NEV as alternative to ICE conversion
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [EV] Re: FourthGen ''PB6' Pot Box
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision replaces all gauges in White Zombie
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision replaces all gauges in White Zombie
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Dan. You've properly crystallized my whole position on this thing.
:)
--T
On 7/26/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Marc, I don't think it must be tantalizing to the automakers since iirc
they are free of the ZEV mandate so they have nothing to live up to.
Further, if Les Goldman wanted some action he could start selling their
cells to EV converters at the same price they sell them for to DeWalt
instead of punishing us by a factor 2 or 3. he might even offer those
packs we saw Wayland use if that's a semi stock product.
put up a webshop with their products instead of hiding behind retarded
old b2b practices and let the grass roots people and the speed freaks
spread fear into the coal black hearts of big auto.
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have a guestimate based on their use of either the current
Prius, or their battery enhanced Prii to guess what the gas mileage
might change to with even this tiny bump in battery?
Ian
On 7/25/07, Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If I remember correctly, they're just using two strings of the 6.5Ah
Panasonic prismatic NiMH batteries - more or less two of the existing
Prius battery packs in parallel. (So not violating any Cobasys patent
licensing.)
The stated 13km range is pretty puny though, I don't think plugin
hybrids will gain traction (unintentional pun) until the electric
range is more like 50kms. Which pretty much means lithium batteries.
(It might be possible with lead, but with all the ICE weight in there
as well it'd get way too heavy.)
-Ian
On 26/07/2007, at 12:40 PM, Joseph T. wrote:
> I can't read your post, but I saw the video. If you look closely
> you'll see an E-Com!
>
> But I have to admit, is Toyota trying to have people the Prius's
> design. I mean, the way it already is, it doesn't look so great. Did
> they really need to add the frilly flowers and birds?
>
> Toyot says that they're not using lithium batteries but just a bigger
> NiMH pack, Maybe the whole patent issue with Cosaby and Panasonic is
> over or the patent has expired?
>
> On 7/25/07, Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>> * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
>> * This post contains a forbidden message format *
>> * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
>> * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
>> * If your postings display this message your mail program *
>> * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>
>> ----
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm all for grass roots folks getting access to the best at
reasonable prices.
But I'm really interested in the mass market moving to grid power for
cars, and I take a little hope where I can find it.
A123 batteries into hybrids already on the road installed by
qualified third party installers could jumpstart that process.
On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Marc, I don't think it must be tantalizing to the automakers since
iirc they are free of the ZEV mandate so they have nothing to live
up to.
Further, if Les Goldman wanted some action he could start selling
their cells to EV converters at the same price they sell them for
to DeWalt instead of punishing us by a factor 2 or 3. he might even
offer those packs we saw Wayland use if that's a semi stock product.
put up a webshop with their products instead of hiding behind
retarded old b2b practices and let the grass roots people and the
speed freaks spread fear into the coal black hearts of big auto.
Dan
Marc Geller wrote:
"Les Goldman wants you to convert (your hybrid.) Easy as 123. So
he proposed at the California Air Resources Board ZEV workshop on
Tuesday...."
See the rest at http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.hybrids-plus.com/
Marc Geller wrote:
I'm all for grass roots folks getting access to the best at reasonable
prices.
But I'm really interested in the mass market moving to grid power for
cars, and I take a little hope where I can find it.
A123 batteries into hybrids already on the road installed by qualified
third party installers could jumpstart that process.
On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Marc, I don't think it must be tantalizing to the automakers since
iirc they are free of the ZEV mandate so they have nothing to live up
to.
Further, if Les Goldman wanted some action he could start selling
their cells to EV converters at the same price they sell them for to
DeWalt instead of punishing us by a factor 2 or 3. he might even
offer those packs we saw Wayland use if that's a semi stock product.
put up a webshop with their products instead of hiding behind
retarded old b2b practices and let the grass roots people and the
speed freaks spread fear into the coal black hearts of big auto.
Dan
Marc Geller wrote:
"Les Goldman wants you to convert (your hybrid.) Easy as 123. So he
proposed at the California Air Resources Board ZEV workshop on
Tuesday...."
See the rest at http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure that you are all aware that A123 and Hymotion have packs in testing
for the Prius. They
are working on OEM for these packs to convert them through Toyota to PHEV.
They are hoping
for approval next year. I'd be more than happy to convert my hybrid to plug
in as soon as the
packs are available. At least with that pack it would give a much better
range (30 miles) than
adding another NiMH pack.
I just hope that they also include a EV Mode button along with that
conversion.
I'm all for grass roots folks getting access to the best at reasonable
prices.
But I'm really interested in the mass market moving to grid power for
cars, and I take a little hope where I can find it.
A123 batteries into hybrids already on the road installed by qualified
third party installers could jumpstart that process.
On Jul 26, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Marc, I don't think it must be tantalizing to the automakers since iirc
they are free of the ZEV mandate so they have nothing to live up to.
Further, if Les Goldman wanted some action he could start selling their
cells to EV converters at the same price they sell them for to DeWalt
instead of punishing us by a factor 2 or 3. he might even offer those
packs we saw Wayland use if that's a semi stock product.
put up a webshop with their products instead of hiding behind retarded
old b2b practices and let the grass roots people and the speed freaks
spread fear into the coal black hearts of big auto.
Dan
Marc Geller wrote:
"Les Goldman wants you to convert (your hybrid.) Easy as 123. So he
proposed at the California Air Resources Board ZEV workshop on
Tuesday...."
See the rest at http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
_________________________________________________________________
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Major wrote:
> > 6.8 Ohms is pretty low for a true shunt motor.
> Lee's
> > got a pretty good take on it... Good news is that
> you'll
> > be able to over excite for accel torque.
> >
> > If you can come up with a variable power supply
> for
> > the field, 100 V, 15A, or at least 50 V, 8A, you
> could
> > run some bench tests to figure out how to control
> the
> > field. If you can drive the armature of the beast
> at
> > a constant RPM, you can take a no load
> magnetization
> > curve. That would be helpful when you design your
> > control and give you a real good idea of safe
> field
> > current.
>
> One way to figure out the safe field current is to
> measure its cold
> resistance, calculate its hot resistance for (say) a
> 40 deg.C rise
> (typical for a motor winding), and then
> experimentally find out how much
> field voltage it takes to cause this resistance
> rise.
>
> The temperature coefficient of copper is very
> predictable, so this test
> method is quite an accurate way to measure a
> winding's temperature.
>
> Lee
>
Yea, Lee,
IIRC, 37 percent increase in resistance was 120 degree
C rise. This is what could be used on a class H
motor. I didn't see Zeke list that and it should have
been on the name plate. Also, he should have the
appropriate ventilation during the test.
A few years ago, I came across a smaller sepex GE
motor with a private brand nameplate, so I figured I
was on my own to figure out how to control it. Also
had a freebie Curtis sepex with a custom software. I
was able to adjust field map parameters, but needed
motor info. So I ran a no load magnetization curve
and was able to tell when it saturated and how far
down to field weaken it. Very helpful. I think Zeke
will need this type of info if he is going to do his
own control. So my comment about safe field current
was primarily with regard to saturation. If one
limits field current to avoid saturation (except on
accels and overloads), chances are it will be o.k.
thermally. But it doesn't hurt to check and
resistance is an easy way to do that.
Jeff
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sorry.
It says
CL.F DUTY-1 HR 115c
Z
On 7/26/07, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Major wrote:
> > 6.8 Ohms is pretty low for a true shunt motor.
> Lee's
> > got a pretty good take on it... Good news is that
> you'll
> > be able to over excite for accel torque.
> >
> > If you can come up with a variable power supply
> for
> > the field, 100 V, 15A, or at least 50 V, 8A, you
> could
> > run some bench tests to figure out how to control
> the
> > field. If you can drive the armature of the beast
> at
> > a constant RPM, you can take a no load
> magnetization
> > curve. That would be helpful when you design your
> > control and give you a real good idea of safe
> field
> > current.
>
> One way to figure out the safe field current is to
> measure its cold
> resistance, calculate its hot resistance for (say) a
> 40 deg.C rise
> (typical for a motor winding), and then
> experimentally find out how much
> field voltage it takes to cause this resistance
> rise.
>
> The temperature coefficient of copper is very
> predictable, so this test
> method is quite an accurate way to measure a
> winding's temperature.
>
> Lee
>
Yea, Lee,
IIRC, 37 percent increase in resistance was 120 degree
C rise. This is what could be used on a class H
motor. I didn't see Zeke list that and it should have
been on the name plate. Also, he should have the
appropriate ventilation during the test.
A few years ago, I came across a smaller sepex GE
motor with a private brand nameplate, so I figured I
was on my own to figure out how to control it. Also
had a freebie Curtis sepex with a custom software. I
was able to adjust field map parameters, but needed
motor info. So I ran a no load magnetization curve
and was able to tell when it saturated and how far
down to field weaken it. Very helpful. I think Zeke
will need this type of info if he is going to do his
own control. So my comment about safe field current
was primarily with regard to saturation. If one
limits field current to avoid saturation (except on
accels and overloads), chances are it will be o.k.
thermally. But it doesn't hurt to check and
resistance is an easy way to do that.
Jeff
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think anyone here is questioning that A123 is doing good things...
The question is.. are they doing the most they CAN do?
My answer is a definitive no. The trickle of batteries out to
enthusiasts would be small, and there is no reason A123 couldn't offer
them for sale in naked, single cell form at a low price. If they are
truly selling millions upon millions of batteries to DeWalt, they
could certainly get another few 100,000 in there and sell limited
quantities (say, up to 50kWH) of batteries to single consumers for the
express purpose of market building and generation of goodwill.
I know the technical business 101 reasons of course. My contention is
that market dilution doesn't apply because this is an emerging market,
and is so starved for product you could shovel them out the door with
snow shovels and you wouldn't even touch demand. Also you don't
compromise your business relationship with DeWalt since you've choked
your extra downline to strictly retail customers, and you've not
provided a BMS.
Either they have a deal with Chevron not to do this, or they actually
think that this is the proper way to distribute the batteries. I think
they need to have more espresso and read up. ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I disagree. I belong to a group that uses the web based message system and
is is a pain in the @$$ to use. Topics come up in the order they were
created, and there are currently 223 of them! I find myself constantly
having to look, page forward, backward, wait, wait, wait (and I have cable
internet). I get so frustrated that I seldom look at it anymore, and have
hundreds of messages I haven't seen, many just saying "Me too", but they
just show up as new messages in that topic, so I have to load the entire
thread just to check them. I much prefer this email based system. I can
look at my email subjects and delete the subjects I'm no longer interested
in, and if an email is a "me too", I can quickly delete it. Much easier to
use. If someone shuffles these messages into a web based system by topics,
more power to them, but I'll never use it. I much prefer the emali based
KISS system.
Dave
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:16:56 +0200
right on
if the leadership here said we're moving it would happen over night without
any problems and they would no doubt like it
a few are just afraid of change, even for the better. ironically much the
same mentality that is the cause of the EV delay.
and then the bulk here are afraid to voice an opinion either way. as if
independent thought was a fatal disease.
this is not a case of having two fora, it's an upgrade.
Dan
Kip C. Anderson wrote:
As the former operator of a mailing list, all it took from me to
transition it's users to a web based forum was putting it up and
ecnouraging people to use it. Within weeks, list traffic dropped from
30-40 messages per day to 1-2 messages per day. That list is still in
existance 7 years later, but I have not seen a single message go through
it in the last 3. The php based forum that i started (and no longer
manage) continues to go on strong today with nearly 3500 registered users.
That should tell you something about what most people really prefer.
- Kip
----- Original Message ----- From: "BrownGassyTurd"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
As it was recruitment for another souce of EV info, I wouldn't have
considered it spam; and even though I did not receive an email invite,
I'm glad you guys made me aware of it.
I've heard attempts at web based "EVDL replacements" (if you choose
to consider them that) have failed in the past, but don't see why they
can't co-exist and even complement each other.
The way some here speak of those new-fangled web based boards makes me
wonder if the EVDL's mission is being fulfilled to the fullest extent
possible.
The EVDL is currently like a secret handshake to new users. Just look
at the amount of people not "getting" the text only format and bugging
the hell out of the veterans.
I'm just glad that other forms of disseminating EV info exists.
YouTube videos of White Zombie to complement the stories here is an
awesome (cool, groovy, tight, sweet, [insert your generation's slang
for swell]) experience.
Here's hoping that Robert Green makes it, and/or that someone else
tries again if he doesn't succeed.
Still bummed I wasn't worthy of an invite though,
Manny
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Zeke,
Class F is for 155 degree C max. Most often used is
an allowable 115 deg C rise (over a 40 deg C ambient).
Jeff
--- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> sorry.
>
> It says
>
> CL.F DUTY-1 HR 115c
>
> Z
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'
Hi Gail, David, Mike and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "G DONALDSON LUCAS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Sebring EV info needed
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:21:11 -0700
>Jerry,
>
>If you haven't found the Citicar info you need let me know.
> I have some of the manuals and could look for the pages
>you want. Nu-Kar has an excellent manual which includes
>all of the C-Car models, costs about $40, might be worth
>getting if you will be doing a lot of work on these
>vehicles.
Hopefully I can find it on the Citicar list. Which
would be easier if my computer hadn't died!!
I'll pass the Nu-Kar info to the owner. Thanks David
and Mike too for their info.
Why you all haven't heard from me much is last week a
90' oak tree fell on my diesel Rabbit, an A-Liner camper, my
50 mph GC transaxle trike and the travel trailer I was in at
the time. So now I'm carless and computerless!!
Luckily the Freedom EV was spared.
Someday this yr I'll be coming thru Las Vegas and will
see if I can get your Citi-cars going Gail.
Only have the Library computers so not much time after
reading the e mails before my hr is up.
Anyone wanting to get ahold of me my number is
813-671-3059.
Thanks All,
Jerry Dycus
>
>Gail
>
>P.S. When you become a C-Car expert please consider
>opening a branch office in Las Vegas. My last great
>maintenance guru had too much else to do and I think got
>sick of trying to keep the C-Cars functional.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:33 AM
>Subject: Sebring EV info needed and don't feed the troll
>
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I need a diagram of a Sebring-Citi-car,
>> especialy the reverse wring from a later Sebring EV I'm
>> working on. It's been modified with a Curtis controller
>> and presently using a battery tap for the 12vdc curcuits
>> so much work needs to be done.
>> Also I couldn't find the Citicar list.
>> Anyone can give me a hand would be greatly appreciated.
>> Please stop playing Dan's the troll, game
>> as it waste the list, listee's time, resources. Could he
>> be Troy?
>> Thanks,
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
155 degree C, as in 312 degrees F? That seems awfully hot for a motor
to me. I guess it's good, but I thought you were normally supposed to
keep them below 100C or so...
Z
On 7/26/07, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Zeke,
Class F is for 155 degree C max. Most often used is
an allowable 115 deg C rise (over a 40 deg C ambient).
Jeff
--- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> sorry.
>
> It says
>
> CL.F DUTY-1 HR 115c
>
> Z
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch Lee, I was reading through your list and immediately my mind
started thinking of how to automate all the things you were listing
off, and then you totally shot me down... Your probably right
though, it would be very difficult to come up with an itelligent
enough system to put it all together and certainly no one would take
on the task of doing all that work manually.
To my credit however, I was not thinking of using someone else's
software to do the job :-)
I'm writing the software to do much of this for the Electric
Motorcylce Listserv but it's a part time thing so it's going slowly.
Mike
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pfftt...my '74 Bug cruises at 70 mph.
Cost: $5250.00
Rich A.
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Porsche to make hybrids
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:33:20 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Cruise at 70mph on the electric engine?
Wow.
Starts at $44,000? More than I can afford, but far less than I would have
expected.
I can't wait to hear what the plug-in-modders do to this thing!
Ed Cooley
_________________________________________________________________
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one
place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, Guys.. A123 sells Cobal Phosphate cells to DeWalt. They have not
yet brought out the Iron Phosphate cells. At least so I have heard from
the little birds :) . . . .
Are the cells on the KillaCycle (Bill?) also Cobalt Phosphate cells ?
(You can't see it from the cell voltage. Need to analyze the insides or
ask from the factory) I think we had a talk about this earlier. I was
wondering the specific energy amount then...
Are you REALLY suggesting that A123 should do the same screw ups as some
Chinese companies have ? Selling plain cells to "grass root activists"
is insane.
It is possible to get even the most safest cells on the earth on fire.
You just need to giive them to stupid enough person and that's it.
I hope A123 can produce vehicle packs to all hobbyists since there is a
real demand.
Reason A123 still has good fame is that they are not giving the cells
out to wrong persons.
But I hope there will be soon some open source BMS out there that you
can do easily with discrete components..... And buy any cells from
anywhere.....
-Jukka
Timothy Balcer kirjoitti:
I don't think anyone here is questioning that A123 is doing good things...
The question is.. are they doing the most they CAN do?
My answer is a definitive no. The trickle of batteries out to
enthusiasts would be small, and there is no reason A123 couldn't offer
them for sale in naked, single cell form at a low price. If they are
truly selling millions upon millions of batteries to DeWalt, they
could certainly get another few 100,000 in there and sell limited
quantities (say, up to 50kWH) of batteries to single consumers for the
express purpose of market building and generation of goodwill.
I know the technical business 101 reasons of course. My contention is
that market dilution doesn't apply because this is an emerging market,
and is so starved for product you could shovel them out the door with
snow shovels and you wouldn't even touch demand. Also you don't
compromise your business relationship with DeWalt since you've choked
your extra downline to strictly retail customers, and you've not
provided a BMS.
Either they have a deal with Chevron not to do this, or they actually
think that this is the proper way to distribute the batteries. I think
they need to have more espresso and read up. ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank,
Alternatively, why not simply power an LED from the 12V coil signal?
This will only tell you when the coil is energized, not whether the
contactor is in a particular condition (think welded contacts), nor if
there is or isn't pack voltage present.
Also, see Lee's comments.
Frank John wrote:
Thanks for everyones replies.
Eric, you've presented an interesting quandary. I wonder if appropriate use of
a diode would fix this? If so, any advice on sizing? Does it matter at 120
VDC?
Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
me. Lawrence rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: DIY Electric Car Forums
> How many people with an EV on the EValbum got this
> message, just curious,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Hello, My name is Robert Green. I just saw your EV on
> austinev albums and thought I'd invite you
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PCV valves, EGR valves, oil filters, oil replacement/refilling,
transmission fluid replacement/refilling, brake pads, spark plugs,
serpentine belts, timing belts/chains, batteries, and hoses need to be
replaced. That's alot! You're supposed to change all these parts
sometime in the ownership of your vehicle. Add the cost of labor and
you're looking at a couple grand easy.
A dealership only makes a few thousand dollars of profit on each car
they sell, so when you add in the maintenance money, profit goes up
alot counting it per car.
Of course, few people actually replace all these parts as they should.
So most cars usually go a few years with no maintenance and then go to
the dealership, and then are hit with a huge bill.
EVs literally require no maintenance. There could be transmission
fluid, and there might be cooling fluid, but that's it. Nothing else,
unless you take in account batteries. Modern batteries will last about
7+ years before becoming in desperate need of replacement. (Rav4 EVs
have proven even longer, but new EVs are using the more immature
Li-ion)
Once you look at the cost of the battery (15k ?) and compare it to the
cost of that new car you've been looking at, buying a new car doesn't
seem so outrageous. Dealerships might make money by recycling the
battery or selling it used or something, but I doubt that it makes as
much money as ICE car maintenance because then dealerships would have
no problem with EVs.
On 7/26/07, Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
All this talk about low maintenance EVs versus IC powered vehicles. Is it
really so profound a difference? My wife drives a 98 Tacoma that has never been
in the shop for anything other than plugs, wires, air filters, oil filters and
oil. Shoot, I think the thing is still on its original battery. Wow, that thing
is 9 years old. Maybe I should replace it one of these days. We have never
serviced the brakes, and they show no sign of fading to this day. We have
probably spend about $100 per year on basic tune up stuff. Are EVs really that
much better?
Maybe if we were comparing EV maintenance to American car reliability. A Yugo
is probably more reliable than our 40,000 mile '01 Dodge 1/2 ton. What a pile
that thing is. Sigh. Poor American cars.
---- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
=============
<<<<
IMHO
It is political. we may want electric vehicles but
there are powerful folks who want to make them as
inconvient and unuasable as possible. It really has
nothing to do with saftey. Untill Toyota, Ford, GM
etc make electrics (which they will only do when
forced to) we will all have an up hill battle.
--- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Not to mention illegal in most states and possibly
> unsafe.
> >
>
> I think that the requirement that NEV's not go
> faster than 25mph is
> quite unsafe. Because they are allowed on roads
> with speed limits of
> 35 and below. We all know that when the speed limit
> is 35, everyone
> is going more like 40.
>>>>
I drive one of the EV Rangers that Ford was forced to make (then publicly shamed
into selling what wasn't already crushed), so we *know* it's possible. They
could get just as much profit from the original sale of an EV as the ICE
equivalent, but Henry Ford, when asked about the low price of Model T's, said
something like "I could give them away and make all my profit on upkeep" -
without an engine or transmission, what would keep the dealers afloat? I have
to admit, I do feel safer in a pickup at 70mph than an NEV on busy
streets...but then, I don't bicycle very often either!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought one.
Shipped to Chile for what just shipping would be for a curtis one. I-ll
gamble :)
>
> >Hi, All,
> >
> >Has anyone tried the above (available on Ebay auction # 150143859148)?
> >Half
> >the cost (in the UK at least) of a real PB6.
> >
> >Regards, MW
> >
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://ev.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is set up like many forums that are on line. The whole thing is like one
big archieve. I'm on a Chevy 6.2L Diesel forum just like it. It's ok.
Seems like good folks but I'm not giving up on the EVDL. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's like the iphone, but for EVs.
On 7/26/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All,
Just a short post (is that possible?) about last week's enlightening
time spent with Metric Mind's Victor Tichonov! I'm sure many have
noticed the way he and I go at it from time to time here on the EVDL,
but that's OK. We'll probably never agree on certain things, but we do
respect each other and consider ourselves friends. Sure, he's 'Mr. AC'
but if anyone thinks he's anti-DC, then I guess you missed him at pretty
much all the major drag racing EVents around here where he's right in
there with everyone else cheering on the DC powered electric drag cars
tearing up the track. Conversely, there are probably just as many who
think I'm 'Mr. DC' and that I'm anti-AC...then perhaps you missed me
smoking Victor's ACRX's tires last week, flying down the freeway in his
smooth running AC machine, and regenning down Mt. Tabor without ever
having to touch the brake pedal!
Keeping track of all the activity, and the reason for my fun ride in his
electric Honda, was Victor's absolutely brilliant 'EVision'! Listen up
everyone...this is going to be the next 'must have' item in your EV! I
rank his do-almost-everything EVision right in there with the Zilla
controllers and the Manzanita Micro chargers in regards to how it will
revolutionize the backyard builder/converter's world. Rudman's powerful
and flexible chargers dramatically changed our EVs for the better,
offering tremendous charging power in short time periods with the basic
controllability needed to protect AGM and other sensitive battery types.
In my short range type EVs, these chargers took my charge time from 6-8
hours to 45 minutes - one hour! The same type of revolution can be said
about Otmar's Zilla controllers, too, and I certainly don't need to go
into all that again, as I've written many, many times about how
wonderful the are. Now, here comes the EVision!
Until now, the classic Emeter was 'the meter' for electric cars. It
offered a lot of features in a small dash gauge that also added the
'cool factor' of an LED lit face with digital readouts of volts, amps,
ahrs, time left to empty, etc. However, the Emeter is also well known
for a failure mode, where if one forgets to disconnect high voltage
power in a certain order...poof, there goes your Emeter! Then, there's
the fidgeting with it's face mounted membrane switches while
driving...argh! Still, the Emeter is cool, and I've got five of them in
various EVs around here.
The EVision is all the good things of an Emeter, plus soooooooo much
more! First, it's a larger so it's far more 'readable', and the LED lit
face is in a word, fantastic! In the automotive world of car nuts like
me, the phrase 'eye candy' is used often to describe those things that
make folks admiring show cars drool. Eye candy can be an outrageous
paint job, artfully twisted headers on a built V8, an elaborate sound
system with colorful highlights and exotic speaker designs, tricked out
upholstery, custom wheels, etc. In this regard, the EVision rules!
Victor deserves a huge kudos for the way he designed the display! The
display can give three different parameters all at once, too, because
there are twin split color digital displays plus an analog type radial
display around the meter face perimeter, too. One look at his EVision
lit up and doing its thing, especially at night, screams 'gotta have
it'! I know, I know, some of you more techy types out there might be
thinking 'who cares about the way it looks...how 'bout its
functionality?' Victor's got that covered...big time!
The first big change over an Emeter's press-buttons-on-the-display, is
the nifty wired remote control...illuminated, no less! It's a rotary
knob you can rest your free hand onto and never have to look away from
the road at to operate...simply twist and watch all the modes pop up on
the EVision. I personally, think Victor was inspired by me :-) You see,
back in the 90's, I was the first to integrate an Emeter into the dash
display of a conversion in the 'Red Beastie' project. It looked like a
factory dash option, and I used the steering wheel cruise control
buttons to 'remotely' operate the Emeter's functions:
http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/album07/Beastie
Victor has taken this idea and made it perhaps the best feature of the
EVision...no more pressing on the face of a tiny round dash gauge. The
EVision is fully programmable via a laptop...Mac or PC...great move,
Victor! You can customize any combination of the myriad of displays, you
can set up favorite combinations, you can...well, do almost anything you
like! The feature list is so long of all the things this device takes
care of, I cannot list all of them...Victor, can you please respond and
post a list of functions for everyone? In any EVent, in addition for
easily doing all the Emeter does, you can also use your EVision as a
speedometer, a tach, a watt hrs per mile efficiency gauge (in real time
as you drive), an instantaneous kw consumed gauge (great if you're drag
racing and want to see the actual delivered kw from the pack), a 12V
systems monitor...man, I could go on, and on! Did I mention it also
captures and store all data?
Suffice it to say, I am privileged to be in the process of installing #2
EVision in White Zombie (along with a 5 point roll bar) that will
replace all of the gauges currently in the car! I'm beta testing it for
Victor, but I can already tell you he's not getting it back! Finally,
White Zombie will have a speedo...and a working tach....and a 12V
monitor that is highly accurate...and a kw consumed mode...and a watt
hrs per mile (or is that per 1/4 mile?) gauge...and a...... :-) :-) :-)
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Guys, Guys.. A123 sells Cobal Phosphate cells to DeWalt. They have not
yet brought out the Iron Phosphate cells. At least so I have heard
from the little birds :) . . . .
that's interesting. their website doesn't actually say cobalt or iron.
but it does say the specs. it could be crystal meth chemistry for all I
care if it works. and apparently it does.
Selling plain cells to "grass root activists" is insane.
you really are a schmuck. haven't you yourself bought lithium batteries
for a homebuilt EV? such elitist crap
Reason A123 still has good fame is that they are not giving the cells
out to wrong persons.
aren't they selling to everyone? just at higher prices. when you learn
to speak english properly we can talk about who's the wrong people.
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
> Guys, Guys.. A123 sells Cobal Phosphate cells to DeWalt. They have not
> yet brought out the Iron Phosphate cells. At least so I have heard from
> the little birds :) . . . .
>
> Are the cells on the KillaCycle (Bill?) also Cobalt Phosphate cells ?
> (You can't see it from the cell voltage. Need to analyze the insides or
> ask from the factory) I think we had a talk about this earlier. I was
> wondering the specific energy amount then...
>
> Are you REALLY suggesting that A123 should do the same screw ups as some
> Chinese companies have ? Selling plain cells to "grass root activists"
> is insane.
>
> It is possible to get even the most safest cells on the earth on fire.
> You just need to giive them to stupid enough person and that's it.
>
> I hope A123 can produce vehicle packs to all hobbyists since there is a
> real demand.
>
> Reason A123 still has good fame is that they are not giving the cells
> out to wrong persons.
>
> But I hope there will be soon some open source BMS out there that you
> can do easily with discrete components..... And buy any cells from
> anywhere.....
>
> -Jukka
That open source generic BMS is exactly what the Lion Tamer and the Mk3by4
products are going to be.
In fact I have them on both A123 cells and Thunder Sky LFP40aha cells at
this very moment.
So yea their will be support, and lots of it.
Jukka, I thought the A123 were all Lith Fe Phosphate Graphite , no cobalt at
all.. and never was.
The Thunder Skys LFP are also the .. safe cell designs.
I have heard the spec E on A123 266550s are 3680 Watts/ Kg, and in the
Killacycle they are actually getting just a tad over 4Kw/Kg.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
please calm down.
First of all, people like Jukka have more PRACTICAL experience than 100s like
you.
2. Either it's iron or cobalt - screw it - I'll crack open one, put it under
EDS (like I did with many others manufacturers products) and we will find
out.
And third - if you need to correct people's language mistakes get a job in
newspaper.
EVL Guys - sorry, I fed the troll. But I'm tired.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So... where do we get them? I want one.
Z
On 7/26/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It's like the iphone, but for EVs.
On 7/26/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Just a short post (is that possible?) about last week's enlightening
> time spent with Metric Mind's Victor Tichonov! I'm sure many have
> noticed the way he and I go at it from time to time here on the EVDL,
> but that's OK. We'll probably never agree on certain things, but we do
> respect each other and consider ourselves friends. Sure, he's 'Mr. AC'
> but if anyone thinks he's anti-DC, then I guess you missed him at pretty
> much all the major drag racing EVents around here where he's right in
> there with everyone else cheering on the DC powered electric drag cars
> tearing up the track. Conversely, there are probably just as many who
> think I'm 'Mr. DC' and that I'm anti-AC...then perhaps you missed me
> smoking Victor's ACRX's tires last week, flying down the freeway in his
> smooth running AC machine, and regenning down Mt. Tabor without ever
> having to touch the brake pedal!
>
> Keeping track of all the activity, and the reason for my fun ride in his
> electric Honda, was Victor's absolutely brilliant 'EVision'! Listen up
> everyone...this is going to be the next 'must have' item in your EV! I
> rank his do-almost-everything EVision right in there with the Zilla
> controllers and the Manzanita Micro chargers in regards to how it will
> revolutionize the backyard builder/converter's world. Rudman's powerful
> and flexible chargers dramatically changed our EVs for the better,
> offering tremendous charging power in short time periods with the basic
> controllability needed to protect AGM and other sensitive battery types.
> In my short range type EVs, these chargers took my charge time from 6-8
> hours to 45 minutes - one hour! The same type of revolution can be said
> about Otmar's Zilla controllers, too, and I certainly don't need to go
> into all that again, as I've written many, many times about how
> wonderful the are. Now, here comes the EVision!
>
> Until now, the classic Emeter was 'the meter' for electric cars. It
> offered a lot of features in a small dash gauge that also added the
> 'cool factor' of an LED lit face with digital readouts of volts, amps,
> ahrs, time left to empty, etc. However, the Emeter is also well known
> for a failure mode, where if one forgets to disconnect high voltage
> power in a certain order...poof, there goes your Emeter! Then, there's
> the fidgeting with it's face mounted membrane switches while
> driving...argh! Still, the Emeter is cool, and I've got five of them in
> various EVs around here.
>
> The EVision is all the good things of an Emeter, plus soooooooo much
> more! First, it's a larger so it's far more 'readable', and the LED lit
> face is in a word, fantastic! In the automotive world of car nuts like
> me, the phrase 'eye candy' is used often to describe those things that
> make folks admiring show cars drool. Eye candy can be an outrageous
> paint job, artfully twisted headers on a built V8, an elaborate sound
> system with colorful highlights and exotic speaker designs, tricked out
> upholstery, custom wheels, etc. In this regard, the EVision rules!
> Victor deserves a huge kudos for the way he designed the display! The
> display can give three different parameters all at once, too, because
> there are twin split color digital displays plus an analog type radial
> display around the meter face perimeter, too. One look at his EVision
> lit up and doing its thing, especially at night, screams 'gotta have
> it'! I know, I know, some of you more techy types out there might be
> thinking 'who cares about the way it looks...how 'bout its
> functionality?' Victor's got that covered...big time!
>
> The first big change over an Emeter's press-buttons-on-the-display, is
> the nifty wired remote control...illuminated, no less! It's a rotary
> knob you can rest your free hand onto and never have to look away from
> the road at to operate...simply twist and watch all the modes pop up on
> the EVision. I personally, think Victor was inspired by me :-) You see,
> back in the 90's, I was the first to integrate an Emeter into the dash
> display of a conversion in the 'Red Beastie' project. It looked like a
> factory dash option, and I used the steering wheel cruise control
> buttons to 'remotely' operate the Emeter's functions:
>
> http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/album07/Beastie
>
> Victor has taken this idea and made it perhaps the best feature of the
> EVision...no more pressing on the face of a tiny round dash gauge. The
> EVision is fully programmable via a laptop...Mac or PC...great move,
> Victor! You can customize any combination of the myriad of displays, you
> can set up favorite combinations, you can...well, do almost anything you
> like! The feature list is so long of all the things this device takes
> care of, I cannot list all of them...Victor, can you please respond and
> post a list of functions for everyone? In any EVent, in addition for
> easily doing all the Emeter does, you can also use your EVision as a
> speedometer, a tach, a watt hrs per mile efficiency gauge (in real time
> as you drive), an instantaneous kw consumed gauge (great if you're drag
> racing and want to see the actual delivered kw from the pack), a 12V
> systems monitor...man, I could go on, and on! Did I mention it also
> captures and store all data?
>
> Suffice it to say, I am privileged to be in the process of installing #2
> EVision in White Zombie (along with a 5 point roll bar) that will
> replace all of the gauges currently in the car! I'm beta testing it for
> Victor, but I can already tell you he's not getting it back! Finally,
> White Zombie will have a speedo...and a working tach....and a 12V
> monitor that is highly accurate...and a kw consumed mode...and a watt
> hrs per mile (or is that per 1/4 mile?) gauge...and a...... :-) :-) :-)
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
