On Feb 6, 11:20 pm, "Tom Caylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Feb 6, 10:25 pm, Brent Meeker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Tom Caylor wrote: > > > > I'm saying that there is no meaning at all if there is no ultimate > > > meaning. > > > So you say. I see no reason to believe it. > > > >Again, I haven't just pulled this out of thin air. If you > > > really read the modern thinkers and writers, that is what they were > > > saying. Hegel, Kierkegaard, Wittgenstein, Russell, Camus, Sartre, > > > Dostoyevsky, Orwell, Godel, Monod, Lewis, Schaeffer... > > > I don't think you've read these writers. Russell, Camus, and Sartre were > > definitely advocates of each person providing their own purpose. > > Incidentally they hardly qualify as "modern" anymore. > > They each came to the edge of the cliff, but they responded in > different ways. Some took the "leap of faith" (!) to say that somehow > providing our own purpose is legitimate. Bertrand Russell said this > was "incredible", but he believed it anyway. We are in the post- > modern age now. > > > > > >I hope that > > > people who are trying to be on the cutting edge of "theories of > > > everything" will go back and pick up from where these thinkers left > > > off. Not just stand on the shoulders of the physics giants, but also > > > the philosophy (and spiritual!) giants. I know that the modern > > > philosophy road is depressing and unlivable. They bring us to the > > > edge of the cliff. It was depressing for people like the young genius > > > Nick Drake who was found dead on his bed in his 20's after a drug > > > overdose, with Camus' Myth of Sysiphus beside him. But we have to > > > face the reality of where the modern age has brought us in order to > > > find the answer before we all exterminate ourselves. ...taking the > > > "leap of faith" that it is bad to exterminate ourselves. > > > It's not modern existential angst that threatens our existence. It's the > > religious zealotry of worshippers of the sky god - in Iran, Pakistan, and > > the bible belt. > > Solshenitzyn said that the line between good and evil does not run > between cultures, beliefs, etc. but right down the center of every > human being. (Don't know if I remembered the quote exactly.) > > > > > >In light of > > > modern thought, your argument about the sky god society begs the > > > question of meaning by assuming that they *shouldn't* "be miserable > > > and kill each other". This is not a dilemma to pass over lightly. I > > > believe it is at the heart of the matter for where mankind is at > > > today, on the brink of something great or terrible. Or is it REALLY > > > all just meaningless? (What would "REALLY" mean in that case? ;) > > > Not to me it isn't. I'm all for not exterminating ourselves and I've got > > grandchildren to prove it. > > Congratulations (honestly). > > However, your having grandchildren shows that you BELIEVE IN not > exterminating ourselves, but it doesn't PROVE that we SHOULD NOT > exterminate ourselves. > > > > > > Isn't that what this Everything stuff is (ultimately ;) all about? We > > > want to solve the modern schizo dilemma of nature vs. grace and bring > > > about wholeness. > > > Sounds like a problem invented in the Vatican. > > Modern science has attempted to explain away the reality of what man > is, both the good and the bad. However, explaining it away doesn't > eliminate it. Thus the dichotomy. > > > >I'm tired of hearing questions about scientifically > > > *proving* which god is the right one, as if the question is supposed > > > to show that it isn't worth it to pursue the answers to the *ultimate* > > > questions. While we're busy trying to scientifically *prove* which > > > way to go, or show that you can't scientifically prove which way to go > > > (which has been done already cf above thinkers), we're gonna walk off > > > the edge of the cliff. And, pardon my presumptuous risking the danger > > > of a false belief, but "that wouldn't be very nice." > > > Scientists never "prove" anything; they observe, invent theories, collect > > evidence, test,... Only mathematicians prove things - and then only > > relative to axioms they assume. > > I agree. > > > > > Brent Meeker > > "It does not matter now that in a million years nothing we do now will > > matter." > > --- Thomas Nagel > > We might like to believe Nagel, but it isn't true. > > Tom
That is, it isn't true that in a million years nothing we do now will matter. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
