On 19 Aug 2009, at 02:31, Brent Meeker wrote: > > Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> This is not the point. The point is that if you develop a correct >> argumentation that you are material, and that what we "see" around us >> is material, then the arithmetical P. Jone(s) will also find a >> correct >> argumentation that *they* are material, and that what they see is >> material. The problem is that if you are correct in "our physical >> reality" their reasoning will be correct too, and false of course. >> But >> then your reasoning has to be false too. >> The only way to prevent this consists in saying that you are not >> Turing-emulable, > > Why can't I just say I'm not Turing emulated? It seems that your > argument uses MGA to > conclude that no physical instantaion is needed so Turing- > emulable=Turing-emulated. It > seems that all you can conclude is one cannot *know* that they have > a correct argument > showing they are material. But this is already well known from > "brain in a vat" thought > experiments.
OK. But this seems to me enough to render invalid any reasoning leading to our primitive materiality. If a reasoning is valid, it has to be valid independently of being published or not, written with ink or carbon, being in or outside the UD*. I did not use MGA here. >> >> But if you are correct in your reasoning, the simulated you has to be >> correct to. It is the same reasoning. >> Or you have a special sense making you know that you are the "real" >> one, but either that special sense is Turing emulable and your >> doppelganger inherit them, or it is not Turing emulable, and you >> better should say "no" to the doctor, because you would loose that >> sense. > > Or it is a relation to the rest of the world and you can say yes so > long as the doctor > maintains your relations to the rest of the world - i.e. physically > instantiates your > emulation. This means, by definition of the "generalized brain", that you have not choose the right substitution level/context. You can say yes because the doctor substitute correctly a *part* of your brain, but you have to introduce a non computational element in the environment to prevent its appearance in the mathematical UD*. You do *seem* to have a sort of point here, though. You provide a situation where comp is false, yet we can say"yes" to the doctor. But in this case your survival is no more "qua computatio". Your survival comes from the fact that your consciousness supervene on some magical (non turing emulable) property of the material moon (say), and that your doctor did not give you an artificial brain, just an artificial part of your brain. This is no more comp or CTM. It is not different than saying yes to the doctor because you believe there is a God who will save your soul and put it back in the reconstitution. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---