2014-05-20 17:55 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com>:
> > > > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: > everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Quentin Anciaux > *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 11:49 PM > > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Thorium: the wonder fuel that wasn't > > > > > > > > 2014-05-20 8:28 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com>: > > What about the waste tails he alludes to. I had not known that they had > actually constructed and tested U233 bombs – had always thought it was a > hypothetical problem rather than an actual and supposedly – according to > this article – a tested device. His point also that U233 does not need an > implosion makes it a technically much simpler conventional bomb to build; > no need for precisely timed shaped charges etc. > > These are valid criticisms that are very much not administrative nature > but cut right to the core [pun intended] of a world in which a multitude of > thorium U233 breeder reactors proliferate widely. There is a risk that this > unintentionally leads to a proliferation of U233 (which can be relatively > easily be chemically separated out from the thorium fluoride salt mix and > purified into U233 metal) > > > > Why does your article say that "Attempts to recover uranium 233 from its > irradiated thorium fuel were described, however, as a “financial disaster.” > " if it is that easy ? > > > > Not my article – > I know that you're not the author of the article and that wasn't implied in the "your article". > you would need to ask the author. I have read elsewhere – and it made > sense to me – that because the U233 and the Thorium are different elements > it is possible to separate them using chemical means > Well, I've always read that it was very difficult to separate it from the thorium salt used in the reactor. I found this: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/nuclear/is-the-superfuel-thorium-riskier-than-we-thought-14821644 but is this preparation of the thorium fuel the way it would be used in a thorium reactor ? If yes, then sure it's bad... but it would be worse to have an energy crisis. Quentin > as opposed to the very expensive (also in terms of energy expended) > separation by gas centrifuge that is necessary for separating the U235 out > from the U238. > > Chris > > > > Regards, > > Quentin > > > > Furthermore based on the track records of the US, the former USSR, and the > other declared and undeclared nuclear powers I am not nearly as sanguine as > some about the actual outcomes for the long term sequestration of both the > medium term and long term waste products. It is a real and valid concern > that any proponent of such a system needs to be able to have a story for > that is not based upon hypotheticals and fuzzy math (and dumping the > problem onto the commons). > > Can it be shown that LFTR facilities could be largely self-contained well > secured units, including within their compounds all the necessary > re-processing support facilities etc. Can an LFTR system burn through the > vast majority of the by-products until transmuted into stable end chain > element isotopes. > > Thorium itself is pretty easy to come by and is not especially dangerous – > chemically. Seems about like most heavy metals and so could pretty easily > be mined, refined and transported. No issues with it until it becomes mixed > in with U233. > > LFTR does seem to present a pretty safe operational design, from those I > have seen, LFTR reactors can have simple passive failsafe designs that can > make the reactor go into cold shutdown if something goes terribly wrong. > All the operators could abandon their post and walk away and it would still > fail safely. As simple as having a lower melting point plug on the reactor > vessel bottom that will fail allowing the hot molten thorium/U233/flouride > salt to flow out into a dispersed catchment chamber designed to hold it > until it cools. I support looking into it; into a program to build a full > scale pilot system – hopefully a self-enclosed loop system that slowly > breeds its way through the feedstock. I have even dreamed of it in a > science fiction context as the power source for distant outposts too far > out for solar power; just saying I am even somewhat of an LFTR fan J > > But on the other hand to pretend that these criticisms are not valid is > not going to make them go away. U233 is bomb grade stuff (admittedly very > hard to handle, but dictators, criminal syndicates and fanatics care little > about human life. The loss of a few CFUs or cannon fodder units to purify > or transport the material is a loss I am certain they are willing to pay.) > Though it is deadly to handle (for the handlers at least) it is also > technically far easier to purify out from the thorium fluoride salt mix in > which it is contained and once purified to a metal, much less difficult to > turn into an effective device than the prevailing enriched uranium or > plutonium devices. That qualifies as a pretty serious problem to me. Again > not trying to be argumentative or start a flame war. As I said I am > interested in LFTR, more so than most people are. > > My suggestion would be to go for a template of large scale sprawling > self-contained facilities, with multiple passive failsafe design LFTR > reactors coupled with the re-processing and other necessary support and > short term waste sequestration facilities. Keeping the number of facilities > that would need to be kept secured relatively small in number. A highly > redundant and carefully audited accounting of all U233 throughout the chain > should be maintained so that these stocks are safeguarded and the U233 > never leaves these facilities. > > That would be my first proposal right off the bat. > > How do you think the issues raised can be addressed? Or if you feel these > are not valid issues then could you explain your reasoning for feeling this > way. > > Chris > > > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: > everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb > *Sent:* Monday, May 19, 2014 10:25 PM > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Thorium: the wonder fuel that wasn't > > > > On 5/19/2014 9:30 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: > > At the risk of re-starting the Thorium wars <grin> this is a current > article on the why NOTS of Thorium. It addresses them point by point. > > > > http://thebulletin.org/thorium-wonder-fuel-wasnt7156 > > > A mishmash of criticism most of which have to do with administrative and > poltical mistakes or which apply to thorium power ideas quite different > from the liquid salt design demonstrated at Oak Ridge. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
