On 03 Feb 2017, at 15:25, PGC wrote:
On Friday, February 3, 2017 at 2:36:19 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Feb 2017, at 20:38, Brent Meeker wrote:
>
>
> On 2/2/2017 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> I do think the greek get the "correct" mystical insight, which is
>> that Truth is bigger than Reason.
>
> It's also bigger than logic
Of course. Reason by itself is already bigger than logic. All theories
are bigger than (first order) logic.
> - something which every scientist and engineer knows.
Engineers? I guess so. But scientists? Perhaps, but not so much the
Aristotelian believer, who are not aware that even just elementary
arithmetic is not unifiable in a complete theory.
Inform them then perhaps instead of whining about it? Or is it that
you expect people to do the hard work of presenting your work
because you're too busy lecturing an internet list?
Many scientists are
just unaware of the impact of Gödel's discovery, and have sometimes a
reductionist conception of machine, numbers, and finite things in
general.
Oh no! We are doomed. Everybody plug Bruno's writings immediately!
Sell your houses, there is a world to save.
It took Gödel's ingenuity to kill the the Leibniz-Hilbert
Dream of making the base of mathematics consistent and simple. For
many, when they understand this, they realize for the first time that
there is a mathematical reality beyond the theories which try to study
that reality.
For many yes, but for many others not. Some ask: ok, but what good
does this bring?
> It is only mathematicians and logicians who think all knowledge can
> be reached by reasoning.
OK.
But you need to make such mistake to understand that they are
*scientific* mistake. Today, many scientists continue to do that
mistake with respect to arithmetic.
You're repeating yourself. Approach "the many scientists" more
directly then.
That the arithmetical reality is
not even axiomatizable (no complete theory) is quite very often badly
understood. When working in the interdisciplinary domain, it is better
to assume that nothing is obvious, and put all cards on the table.
Now it's interdisciplinary that nobody recognizes arithmetical
reality to not be axiomatizable, the next day it's a
mathematicalism, on another day it's a point in theology, on another
day we have the amazing result of fuzzy physics, then it's only a
toy theology, then everybody lacks modesty, but you evade the
question: how does all this do and feature in peoples' lives? Even
for scientists: they would all become magically modest and not evil,
upon realizing technical points such as that A.R. is not
axiomatizable?
All scientist are already modest. It is just that the theological
science are still taboo. The non axiomatizability of the arithmetical
truth (not RA which is an axiom system) illustrate, with God played by
Arithmetical truth, that the "antic" theology of Plotin and others
admit an interpretation in arithmetic.
Without a meaningful relation to peoples' lives, even if just on
some theological level, this discourse uses scientific environs to
justify purely personal mysticisms. I fail to see evidence of such a
relation nor evidence that there is an end to your need to justify
what the world has misunderstood. The latter feels like a certainty,
which does not fit well with the modest approach you keep bragging
about, attacking in principle all scientists who don't listen to
your sermonizing without clearly naming or engaging them. PGC
The point is technical, and of interest for people searching a theory
of everything, or the fundamental theory. The point is that if we
assume a certain hypothesis (Digital Mechanism), then any first order
logical specification of a Turing Universal theory can be used (like
Robinson Arithmetic, ...), and that a version of that idea is
testable, by comparing the universal machine observable (machine's
physics) with the current observation.
Bruno
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