On 1/23/2024 2:51 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 at 09:34, Brent Meeker <meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/23/2024 2:12 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 4:37 PM Brent Meeker
<meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1/23/2024 12:52 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 3:38 PM Brent Meeker
<meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
//
/> Who wrote this? you, JC?/
No, Scott Alexander did, he's a pretty smart guy but I think
he got some things wrong. I did write this in the comments
section:
"You say "If we’re lucky, consciousness is a basic feature
of information processing and anything smart enough to
outcompete us will be at least as conscious as we are" and I
agree with you about that because there is evidence that it
is true. I know for a fact that random mutation and natural
selection managed to produce consciousness at least once
(me) and probably many billions of times, but Evolution
can't directly detect consciousness any better than I can,
except in myself, and it can't select for something it can't
see, but evolution can detect intelligent behavior. I could
not function if I really believed that solipsism was true,
therefore I must take it as an axiom, as a brute fact, that
consciousness is the way data feels when it is being
processed intelligently.
/>You've written this before, but I slightly disagree with
it. I think Evolution can detect consciousness as directly or
indirectly as intelligence. /
I agree,Evolution can detect intelligence so it can only detect
consciousness if it is an inevitable byproduct of intelligent
data-processing.
You're missing my point that there are at least two different
meanings of "conscious" and only one necessarily accompanies
intelligence (and isn't exactly a "byproduct") It's just
awareness or perception. It doesn't include reflection and
self-awareness, but in can include a lot of intelligence,
including learning.
The second meaning, which is the kind we prize as uniquely human,
is self-awareness. I think it's what you refer to as a
"byproduct", but my point is that it's another level of
intelligence and hence is subject evolution just like any other
aspect of intelligence. This second meaning is planning, and
planning depends on having a self-model. If I do this and that
happens how will I feel and what will I do then.
There is yet another level, phenomenal consciousness, which has no
behavioural manifestations whatsoever, allowing for the theoretical
possibility of philosophical zombies. Some claim that phenomenal
consciousness reduces to one of the other kinds, and therefore that
zombies are impossible.
That's the kind that couldn't evolve and so I agree with JC that it's
unlikely to exist.
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0f810413-0b6a-4e24-b1d7-0e5830bc8b52%40gmail.com.