From: "s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 10:18 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: ~~~~~~~~~~ about friendship ~~~~~~~~~~~
Pretentious, moi?
Re "If you are going to name things that cannot be conceptualised, why not give
it a name that nobody can understand or figure out rather than one that has
obvious personal, societal, philosophical, and religious connotations for most
people?":
I could say "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." Indeed, I do
sometimes say that! Hint: best to pronounce it "Dao" as that sounds more
impressive to the great unwashed who can be fooled into assuming you've really
studied this philosophy. ;-)
But "Tao" is a foreign word. Why not use "The One" or "The Absolute" or, er,
"The Godhead"? It doesn't do any harm if you're aware that language has
developed to deal with the relative world so using English to talk about what
lies beyond all concepts can never be more than a finger pointing at the Moon.
Eckhart isn't misled by the word "Godhead" - neither am I. It's pointing
towards an "experience" (which isn't an experience!) rather than a proper noun.
'God' is derived from a foreign word too, whose entomology is a bit uncertain,
but the original word, a verb, may have meant 'to pour' or 'to libate'
I'm a special case, as happens. I enjoy reading texts which throw in
terminology like this sample . . .
"We pray that we may come unto this Darkness which is beyond light, and,
without seeing and without knowing, to see and to know that which is above
vision and knowledge through the realization that by not-seeing and by
unknowing we attain to true vision and knowledge; and thus praise,
superessentially, it that is superessential."
I enjoy reading texts like this too, sometimes (= not all the time).
Try and explain that to a logical positivist! But I suspect that you can see
what the writer is trying to get across and that he is twisting the language
into something closer to poetry than philosophy in his desperation. His
language overloads our ability to unravel it so you're either launched in the
general direction he intends or are left stranded! I like that kind of
"nonsense" because it teases me out of thought.
The logical positivists like Ayer and Carnap likened metaphysical language to
poetry or music, that from the standpoint of understanding, it's nonsense, but
it conveys something on the level of feeling. Non-verbal information, but of
course about what you can never specifically say.
Re "An experience that is non-verbal and cannot be described renders all words
concerning it nonsense. Nothing you could say about it could possibly be true.":
Indeed. What he's talking about is beyond the true and the false! Beyond what
exists and what doesn't exist. Is it therefore "nonsense = not worth wasting
time on"? Or "nonsense = leave sense behind because there's something (which
isn't a thing) that is more important than your everyday experience leads you
to suspect"?
For the one seeking that elusive, damned thing we call enlightenment, one might
consider that the term 'beyond' might also be another red herring that leads
astray. Exactly where will the result be if you find it?
By the way, Eckhart invents many, many neologisms in his writings.
If anyone has any interest in the man I recommend Meister Eckhart: Mystic as
Theologian by Robert K.C. Forman. Forman has been a keen transcendental
meditator for many years and (although MMY only gets mentioned once in a single
sentence) Forman's analysis of Eckhart's medieval sermons shows his "path"
parallels MMY's ideas of the progression from Transcendental Consciousness, to
Cosmic Consciousness, to God consciousness.
I have thought about this progression, but not everyone seems to experience
these things in this particular order or this particular number of divisions.
If you take the WC | TC CC GC UC | BC sequence and divide it up with those
vertical bars, the middle section (TC CC GC UC) would likely be called Makkyo
(ghosts) by the Zen people, where it corresponds with the middle phrase in
'before enlightenment mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, when
seeking enlightenment mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers,
after enlightenment, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers'. Also if
you take the outer terms (WC and BC) this corresponds with mountains just being
mountains and rivers, rivers, and also the phrase, 'before enlightenment chop
wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water'.
This would seem to imply (assuming you think the Zen description has something
to it) that if you get the desired result, you not only have not gone anywhere,
nor have acquired anything new, but rather that nothing at all happened; that
the desires, the exhilaration, the terminology, the hopes that one has, when
seeking, are all ghosts, a delusion perhaps. Most people I know who are seeking
these things though, seem really locked into the reality of what they expect to
discover. I was not an exception to this, but it does seem to help to make a
strong note of those contrary phrases that are embedded in many traditions,
similar to the Zen master selling water by the river.
A family member recently got caught in the updraft of 'Master John Douglas'.
Searching the Internet, all the information about this fellow seems to have
been derived directly from his promotional material. Nothing about how it was
confirmed he was some sort of master, or independent sources. He seems to be a
walking Australian Infomercial huckster. You can buy, for example, a 'Pet Food
& Body Repair' discs for $150, looks like a really good profit margin. Pet Food
& Body Repair Disc :: Products :: Spirit Repair
And http://www.spirit-repair.com/pdf/Food_Repair_Disc.pdf (for you humans)
What is it about spirituality that is always seems to drift in the direction of
The Three Stooges level of maturity?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote :
How can you say that which is beyond all verbal description, risen above all
concepts could be 'beyond god is the godhead' and that our ground of 'being is
identical to the godhead' which as a concept is just shifting the idea of god
up a notch and giving it a new name by demoting the 'god' name and replacing it
with the 'godhead' name. If you are going to name things that cannot be
conceptualised, why not give it a name that nobody can understand or figure out
rather than one that has obvious personal, societal, philosophical, and
religious connotations for most people? Even the basic idea of a 'ground'
conveys common concepts, such as the stability of standing on earth rather
than, say, falling off a cliff without a tether.
The mind can grasp experiences that cannot be explained verbally, but giving
names with common pre-programmed associations certainly cannot be in the
service of make such experiences credible. Such experiences have to be talked
around, not at directly, by referring to them in multiple non-overlapping ways
to keep the mind from hanging its hat on some single piece of nonsense.
The more the mind is not locked into a particular idea, the more likely an
experience will slip through one's delusions about such experiences. Otherwise
you just promote a particular nonsensical facet of what is attempting to be
conveyed. If you can describe a non-verbal experience in as many ways as the
following list describes the concept of nonsense, perhaps you might better
convey a sense, and only a sense to a mind that is interested in having such an
experience.
An experience that is non-verbal and cannot be described renders all words
concerning it nonsense. Nothing you could say about it could possibly be true.
In other words, if you really want to attempt such a feat you have to lie, lie,
lie through your teeth with a confident smile of knowingness on your face as
you con the person into the idea there is such a thing as enlightenment, or
whatever similar idiocy you are trying to convey in as many ways as possible.
It's reductionism in its worst form, trying to reduce an irreducible experience
to a phrase someone thinks they understand. You do not want them to understand,
you just want them to have the experience, you have to pull the ground out from
under their feet. You have to throw them over a mental cliff from which they
cannot recover.
| Word | Definition |
| ackamarackus | pretentious or deceptive nonsense |
| baboonery | foolishness; stupidity; nonsense |
| balderdash | nonsense; a jumble of words |
| ballyhoo | bombastic or pretentious nonsense |
| baloney | humbug; nonsense |
| bambosh | deceptive nonsense |
| bilge | lower point of inner hull of a ship; nonsense or rubbish |
| blague | humbug; pretentious nonsense |
| blague | pretentious nonsense |
| blarney | skilful flattery; nonsense |
| bletherskate | a garrulous talker of nonsense |
| brimborion | worthless nonsense; trash |
| bugaboo | loud or empty nonsense |
| buncombe | speech-making intended for the mass media; humbug |
| bunk | nonsense; humbug |
| bushwa | nonsense |
| cack | rubbish; worthless nonsense |
| claptrap | showy language designed to gain praise; nonsense |
| clatfart | idle chatter; nonsense |
| codswallop | something utterly senseless; nonsense |
| effutiation | twaddle; humbug |
| eyewash | humbug; something done merely for effect |
| fadoodle | nonsense |
| falderal | nonsense; meaningless refrain of a song |
| fandangle | pretentious tomfoolery |
| fiddlededee | nonsense |
| fiddle-faddle | trifling talk |
| flam | humbug; trickery |
| flannel | ostentatious nonsense |
| flapdoodle | gross flattery; nonsense |
| flimflam | nonsense; trickery |
| flummadiddle | nonsense; humbug |
| flummery | anything insipid; empty compliment; humbug |
| fribble | frivolous nonsense; a trifling thing or person |
| fustian | pretentious writing or speech; inflated or nonsensical language |
| galbanum | nonsense; a kind of gum resin |
| galimatias | nonsense; confused mixture of unrelated things |
| gammon | to feign an action; perpetrate a hoax on; nonsense, rubbish |
| gibberish | nonsense talk |
| grimgribber | learned gibberish; legal jargon |
| haver | foolish nonsense |
| hibber-gibber | gibberish |
| hogwash | nonsense; worthless idea |
| hooey | nonsense; humbug |
| humbug | nonsense |
| jabberwock | nonsense, gibberish |
| jiggery-pokery | deceptive or manipulative humbug |
| kelter | nonsense |
| kidology | deceptive trickery; nonsense |
| linsey-woolsey | coarse inferior wool or wool-flax weave; nonsense or
confusion |
| macaroni | nonsense; foolishness |
| malarkey | humbug; nonsense |
| morology | nonsense |
| mullock | nonsense; rubbish |
| mumbo-jumbo | obscure nonsense |
| narrischkeit | foolishness; nonsense |
| nugament | nonsense; trifle |
| phonus-bolonus | exaggerated trickery or nonsense |
| piddle | nonsense |
| pigwash | rubbish; nonsense |
| poppycock | humbug; nonsense |
| posh | nonsense |
| quatsch | nonsense |
| rannygazoo | foolish nonsense |
| razzmatazz | meaningless talk; hype; nonsense |
| rhubarb | nonsense; actors' nonsense background chatter |
| riddle-me-ree | nonsense language |
| rottack | rubbish; nonsense |
| schmegeggy | nonsense; an idiot |
| shuck | nonsense |
| skittles | rubbish; nonsense |
| slipslop | nonsensical talk |
| spinach | nonsense |
| squit | silly talk; nonsense; an insignificant person |
| stultiloquence | foolish or senseless talk |
| taradiddle | senseless talk; deception; nonsense |
| tarradiddle | lie; falsehood; nonsense; fib |
| tootle | nonsensical writing or speech |
| tosh | rubbish; drivel; nonsense |
| trumpery | deception; trickery; showy nonsense |
| twaddle | rubbish; nonsense
|
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <s3raphita@...> wrote :
Re "when Meister Eckhart says it, it's wise.":
Dawkins and co are *reductive* and try to pooh-pooh the God idea. We're just
animals too clever for our own good.
Eckhart wants his listeners to *rise above* all concepts - including that of
"God". Beyond God is the Godhead which is beyond all verbal description. The
ground of our being is identical to the Godhead. It's western Advaita Vedanta.
(It's also heresy!)
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
So let me get this straight. When people on this forum say they have no need
for God, you get offended and/or occasionally join the Fundies in putting them
down, but when Meister Eckhart says it, it's wise. Interesting. :-)
From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] ~~~~~~~~~~ about friendship ~~~~~~~~~~~
Re " I like the idea that the last thing you give up is your idea of God":
"Man's last and highest parting occurs when, for God's sake, he takes leave of
God."
Meister Eckhart (AD 1260 – 1328), Christian mystic and theologian.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <wayback71@...> wrote :
Thanks, Xeno, for your always thoughtful reply. I will read some Anthony
DeMello. I like the idea that the last thing you give up is your idea of God
(not that it is the last thing, but that you will give it up). I have always
thought that MMY and other gurus who might be genuinely enlightened keep on
with the devotion and rules because for some folks it really does get them on
the road - even if in the end it was all a game. I don't know how many people
benefit from a spiritual path compared to how many get stuck or sidetracked in
the muck. I guess we just goe with what occurs
I too had an experience where I felt a part of it all - it was about a year
after I had learned to meditate. I had just finished my 20 or 30 minutes one
evening, went out to the patio and sit and look around. I felt as if my whole
head and body expanded and the whole Universe seemed to be slowly spiraling all
around. It was a huge black surge filled with stars and light. I assumed it
was Reality and illustrated the force of Evolution. Everything, everything was
caught up in this spiraling, slow flow. Nothing could escape it - so that any
"bad" or tragic events just got pulled along and made right, over time and in
the end, by this flow. It was entirely reassuring, altho not logical, of
course. It seemed to mean that everything was alright just as it happened and
would be made right somehow over time. It faded a while later, sadly.
| |
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| Pet Food & Body Repair Disc :: Products :: Spirit RepairMaster John Douglas,
Spiritual Healer - Spiritual Power, Purity, and Evolution in ourselves allows
us to live the most meaningful life path and achieve our dreams |
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