I'm with Nick. Why? We have to separate understanding *architecture*
from implementation.
Architectural studies look at the system from a 50,000 foot view, so
that the student can understand how the whole system works.
Implementation studies look at how a practitioner would, on the job,
build part of a system.
Very different issues.
I find the architectural, breadth-first approach important for
students today because today's computing ecology has created silos: IT
vs CompSci vs Software Engineering vs Math vs ...
I find billions of computer folks who understand only 5% of computing,
but well. I tend toward understanding 50% well enough to be able to
work out the other 50%.
So I'd not mind taking a class that assumed the implementation used
within the class was not mainstream. That it left the student with
very broad understanding of how computing works. Sure it'd be great
to teach where you got both: understanding and practical skills. I'm
not sure its possible.
Re: Ruby -- It really does not cut it. Great for Rails, but you have
to be a web-only programmer. I think Python still wins the agile
war. My experience with Django on Google App Engine convinced me that
its good enough for web work.
Oddly enough, if I were trying to put together an architectural class,
I just might choose Javascript! Why? Well, it really is an agile
language. And it comes with a window system: the browser. Consider
this: almost all modern languages do *not* come with windowing and
graphics (Java is an exception). And javascript is now making both
browser and server systems that are quite impressive.
So from the architectural standpoint, you get a sophisticated system
that can be run locally as a shell (Rhino), as a web/client system
(DOM + Browser), as a server (jaxer/Aptana), and as a general purpose
scripting language (used as Flash's ActionScript, for example). It
even ships with Java nowadays, and may become the scripting language
of choice for Java! .. what irony!
Teaching computing is tough. It faces a near-chaotic ecology. It
faces absurd bias. It faces an environment where very few
practitioners understand the overall computing milieu.
So GLASS it is for now, right? I think I'd prefer Javascript, but at
least I understand the struggle.
-- Owen
On Feb 15, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Nick Frost wrote:
On Feb 15, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
That's a hard google: GLASS = Gemstone Linux Apache Seaside
Smalltalk = http://seaside.gemstone.com which didn't appear on the
first page of any search until I knew to include gemstone in the
search terms.
Why for desktop applications? It's presenting itself as a
refactored LAMP (Linux Apache Mysql Php) stack? If you want
infidel participation in a 4-1/2 day workshop you really need to
make more of a case.
I'm thankful to Roger for helping me strike yet one more book off my
wish list (Ruby Programming) as that will save a few pennies.
Speaking from the neophyte point-of-view of someone who wouldn't
dare call himself a programmer but as one who writes simple programs
(mostly in BASH, PERL, and Python) I'm interested in the GLASS
workshop merely for what more I might learn about programming in
general. Most of what I've written over the years is for systems
administration (mostly in BASH) and I doubt I've written anything in
my career or amateur experimentation over 500 lines. I don't know
if there's a workshop series planned, but think it's safe to say I
know more than one person who would be willing to pay for a 1-4 day
computer programming workshop that covered coding topics (GLASS,
Python, C, PERL, etc.). I'd like to learn more about Python
programming. I don't know if there are enough like-minded people to
make running such a workshop or series at the sfComplex worthwhile?
For me my interest is as much in learning about the process and
fundamentals than the language. I just wonder how many people
there are who, instead of plugging along blindly with O'Reilly books
and writing small programs for specific projects, might like to take
a class for a few days to learn from an expert or two. I'm willing
to wager that a few people on the NMLUG and/or NMGLUG lists might
be interested as well. Maybe the constituency is already being
served by the CSF curriculum, but I think there might be working
people who haven't time for a class but who would have time for a
programming workshop.
-Nick
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