I urge the angry to ask why. Too often storming away from a table is exactly why we never break ground.
As to the topic of Complexity , this is one component you never inquired of, Why do sensible people become IDIOTS. How does society create idiots out of men? That was my reason to join long ago. The fact that IDIOTS are convinced that they are correct Fascinates me. How can any of us trust the words coming out of our mouths, if we were to discover we have been blindly lead by a Narrative into a cul de sac of Idiocy. The story of binLaden was writen long ago Tolstoy. The short story, Hadji Murat, describes much of the same atmosphere. The killing was easy , the understanding is difficult. It takes no great skill to kill, any brute can do it, it is a much greater challenge to keep something alive. How do we model stupifaction of real people? Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD <mailto:vbur...@shaw.ca> vbur...@shaw.ca 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2 Canada (204) 2548321 Land (204) 8016064 Cell From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: May-06-11 7:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits Salaam Mohammed, Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots. Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are a planet of idiots. Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then. Best, --Doug On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <moham...@computer.org> wrote: Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve. I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised against any human being, and that also happens to includes Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans. I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following: 1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups with unsavory ideologies during the cold war. 2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years. 3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under Saddam!!! 4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia. That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal family.... hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism. I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is still active. That worries me. That must stop. Cheers, Mohammed On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Mohammed - > > I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the > following to hers: > > I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is > designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's > occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can. The apprehension (by > death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and > Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own > part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are > surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the > first place. > > Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we > are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear we > continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even > popular culture. And thereby we become more *capable predators* than > ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been > predatory... > > By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West", > "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates" > or "Sentient Creatures" or what... certainly the last US administration > was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably > it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that > the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders > of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed > in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing > our own nature to us in such a blunt manner. > > The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of > discovery, colonization and empire. With the whole north American > continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european > powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the > rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving > us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial > presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that. > > The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great > deal in the middle east and north Africa... and we, who became the > mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world, > became dominant players in that meddling. Our predatory behaviour in this > regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company > than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or > the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands". But it is predatory > nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high > standard of living. > > We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and > covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a > global network of industries and businesses as their own empire. Petroleum > is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural > resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and > human labor). > > What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a > Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two > very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, a > necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory > chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to suffer > predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in the > chain. > > What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they (WE) > directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on us > to find better ways of living in this world. I was a vegetarian for 17 > years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal > cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very > nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from animals > that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves. Those cruel > realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made the > awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing, > gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't > hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or were > self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they don't > notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty? I found few > amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance. > To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute > ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple > matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the > predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a > "system". > > And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who revel > in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine > when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all "shock > and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole ecosystems > with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum extraction > and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but > meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their > "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their predation > but don't think much past that, or know what else to do. > > Me too. Sadly, me too. I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon > footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to speak > out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the > military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my > consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental > problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to help > feed the dysfunctional feedback loop. > > I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is > these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) are > the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors > held up by such events. > > I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us, > including those who might be in a position to make important changes and > that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a better > way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of attraction > can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to > wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems to > be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch in > or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable, > life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and to > play along. Are we? > > > Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the > rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and maybe > to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our own > tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in. > > - Steve > > In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin > Laden's death: > Thank you for submitting those. > > Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, > as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me > choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the > response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face > some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the > original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of > that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- > and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred > for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always > wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited > any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, > rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are > addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become > extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, > scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. > And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I > think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, > warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our > international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help > us move toward good answers to international problems. > > so thanks. > Peggy Miller > > > > -- > Peggy Miller, owner/OEO > Highland Winds > wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds > Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) > Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings > 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) > Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm > Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/ http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
