Me too. I used to breed dogs. I had Collies first then Shelties, Miniature
Schnauzers and Bichon Frises. Many times the behavior of an animal can be
traced to an owner and the environment he created but this is not always the
case. Especially with the smaller inbred species there have both physical and
behavioral problems that come from the stress placed on the genetic history just
from normal life.
I find cultures placed in unusually stressful situations to often be the
same. I may not know the cultural cues of some people but that doesn't mean
that they are wrong for having them. That also means that it can be dangerous
for me at times if I don't know those cues and vice/versa. The Russians that
lived where I used to have a cabin had a real thing about lines. There was
never a line invented that they couldn't crash. There, we would wait in line
for up to an hour and someone would walk in and step to the front when I wasn't
watching. They of course knew to watch. I learned quickly and I also had to
do it with an attitude that would have been the grounds for a gunfight in
Oklahoma. Communism had nothing to do with it as a system except the fabled
commissary lines might have. Things are not always as simple as they seem on
paper or in theory.
Stay strong and be observant,
REH
Victor Milne wrote:
> Just a comment on animal behaviour. I am not an ethologist, but we have a
> herd of 18 horses. I don't see animal behaviour as being such a simple
> matter of dominance and hierarchy as people are supposing.
>
> The most aggressive animal in our herd is the shortest, a 13.2 hh pony
> gelding (with a very massive frame). However, he never bothers the old herd
> leader, who at age 30 spends most of his time dozing in the sun and just
> growls a bit if the "kids" in the herd crowd in when he goes to the feeder.
> Curiously the very aggressive pony can be totally cowed by a certain small
> mare, two inches taller than him but much slighter. In turn a usually gentle
> Arab gelding succeeds in bullying the small mare, but the Arab is totally
> intimidated by the pony, so we have a strange dominance triangle. The
> biggest animal in the herd--my 16.1 thoroughbred gelding which I use for
> long distance competitive riding--is also the biggest wimp of all. All the
> males are gelded, so I presume that testosterone levels are about equal.
>
> My point is that if a simple model of dominance does not apply very well to
> equine behaviour, it's certainly a mistake to extend it to human behaviour.
>
> Live long and prosper
>
> Victor Milne & Pat Gottlieb
>
> FIGHT THE BASTARDS! An anti-neoconservative website
> at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/pat-vic/
>
> LONESOME ACRES RIDING STABLE
> at http://www3.sympatico.ca/pat-vic/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kurtz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: list futurework <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: February 25, 1999 6:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Democracy & sociocybernetics
>
> >Eva Durant wrote:
> >
> >> The bully tend to be the biggest puppy, the one with
> >> the most expendable energy. Even in dogs,
> >> aggressivity is "taught" by the human
> >> who replaced the role of the alpha.
> >
> >Above is another example of internal inconsistency. The bully pup is
> >aggressive independently of human interaction; and aggressiveness,
> >dominance, & hierarchy exist apart from domestication.
> >
> >> Even bull-terriers in a strong-controlled
> >> but peaceful environment tend to grow up
> >> docile.
> >
> >I've no data, but my personal experience agrees - within a range, of
> >course.
> >
> >> You say we should not attempt democracy because
> >> no animals live that way?
> >
> >Strawman.
> >I never said or implied that. I argue, like Ed does, that hierarchies and
> >ranges of human (& other) behavior have always existed and will most likely
> >continue to do so despite any structural changes invented & applied. It
> >makes democracy somewhat irregular at best. But I'm not advocating
> >dictatorship, just realistic expectations if humans plan to peacefully
> >narrow the gap between rich & poor.
> >
>
> [snip]
