I wonder if the jihadists would settle for something like this (or would the "fundamentalists" on our side settle for something like this)
 
Might be interesting to do some scenarios of where such a process might lead.
 
arthur
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2005 11:21 AM
To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

The time when the West can be seen as an independent entity is past, we live on the globe, on one world. The lesson of 911 is that if this world is not a just one, then no-one can have peace (unless we spend vast resources on sustaining ubiquitous oppression). The only effective measure of winning any war, is the winning of the peace.
 
It may seem like the easiest route to attempt to dump our baggage, to forget (deny) our history. That is like the wife abuser saying I won't do it again, I promise - and don't worry I don't need therapy!
 
Going forward, cannot be accomplished without overcoming the tendency of denial. That is why processes such as the 'truth and reconciliation' one undertaken in South Africa was essential. Both perpetrators and victims had to acknowledge that the past actually did happen, for progress to made made and a relative unity of effort undertaken to look and move forward.
 
A just society requires credible recourse, justice to be seen and felt.
 

John Verdon
Sr. Strategic HR Analyst
D Strat HR
Department of National Defence
Major-General George R. Pearkes Building
101 Colonel By Drive.
Ottawa Ontario
K1A 0K2
voice:  992-6246
FAX:    995-5785
email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Searching for the pattern which connects.... and to know the difference that makes a difference"

-----Original Message-----
From: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 08 July, 2005 11:07
To: Lawrence deBivort; Karen Watters Cole; futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

I usually see things in shade of gray but it seems that one has to "take sides" in this situation. 

Going back in time seems a waste.  We'll end up at Plymouth Rock and our role vis a vis aboriginals.  And then we can move on to how we "won the West."   I agree that the West has blood on its hands.

We live in the West.  Our present lives and futures are tied in with the West.

In a Khmer Rouge situation all those on this list with smooth hands and glasses would be classified as enemies. 

I don't think we should give in so easily.

Maybe OK for some, but doesn't get us far (I don't think) in the current situation.

arthur

 -----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence deBivort [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2005 10:56 AM
To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; 'Karen Watters Cole'; futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

I see the attacks on the US (Sept 11) and UK, now, as just further steps in the long and slow denouement to European colonialism. Until the West starts treating the 'third world' with respect, we can expect to continue to have these kinds of incidents.

To call this a declaration of war on the West seems incorrect, to me. If anything, the West declared war on the third world, going back to the beginning of the 20th century.  To the extent that we haven't corrected the egregious policies the West adopted back then, we will continue to find resistance to them.  Nor was there a declaration of war on us by a 'network' - there was an attack (Sept 11), and our reaction to it give special impetus to the emergence of a network of militant resistance to some of the policies of some Western countries.  Now there is such a network (two significant ones, in fact), and the capabilities of some of their members to take action against the US, UK, and Spain is greater than before the US-driven 'war on terror.'  (Australia next? Italy? Poland? Russia?) This war on terror was a massive political, strategic, and linguistic mistake, and I have no reason to believe that the US government will be able to pull back from it - too many politicos have hitched their stars to it.

The time of the West has come and gone; it is time for Westerners to start behaving like responsible and equal members of the world community.  It is also time for white people to stop thinking that we are superior to people with darker skin; this has been an integral part of the European colonialist problem.

I should point out that the US State Department's own numbers on the number of terrorist attacks has shown a steady decline over the last decade. Sept 11, Madrid and London are not typical, and that is what makes them so interesting. 

Clearly, keeping the UK and US military 'strong' will remain irrelevant to the security of the civil populations of those countries, so long as the those countries fail to both understand and address the root causes of the matter.  But it will cost those two countries a lot of money, and for many that seems to be sufficient reason to do so.

Any country participating in the US invasion and occupation of Iraq can expect to be targeted.  Why should it be otherwise?


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cordell, Arthur: ECOM
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:45 AM
To: Karen Watters Cole; futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

Recall that 9/11 happened "out of the blue"  a la Pearl Harbor.  It seems that war was declared.  This time by a network.

While the reaction of the US vis a vis Iraq may have been misguided or overly optimistic or whatever.  The "bad guys" struck first and have been doing it for some time.  9/11 was the "final straw".

It is difficult to accept that a war is going on.

No amount of aid money or hand holding is going to divert the enemy.  An enemy that is clearly marching to the "beat of a different drummer."  The West is in this for a very long time.

arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Karen Watters Cole
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2005 4:20 PM
To: futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

It didn't take long for the shadow of world terror to be raised here.  Speaking at the end of a BRAC hearing (base closure plan) in Virginia, with a huge flag backdrop, Sen. Warner (R-VA), senior GOP on the Armed Services Committee, said that "this morning we awoke" to reminders of "why we must keep our military strong" and ready to defend us. 

No doubt Sen. Warner and those applauding sincerely feel that a strong military deters homeland attacks. I just wish they would put the same effort into considering the offensive posture that has put us in more danger than before.  You won't hear many in the GOP mention the underlying causes why terrorist attacks increased since 9/11, or how we are expected to man those platoons and keep our vast Navy afloat.

I agree with you that a large attack here would backfire on extremists, who don't want America solidly behind GW Bush and the warhawks; however, my earlier comments were directed at the romantic and fearful notion that our only defense is further militarization of our society.

The downside to this of course is that the main subject at the G8 meetings has already been deflected from addressing global poverty and environmental health to terrorism. Maybe some of the other leaders can get through to Bush and help him understand that there are other alternatives besides perpetual warfare, but I suspect his initial reaction will be to dig in his heels to appear 'resolute' and exhibit 'leadership'.

But my guess is that over here, there will be many taking up the pen and in the streets to protest the failure of the Bush Doctrine and demand a realistic course, regardless of the bluster we shall hear in the short term. 

Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Hudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:36 PM
To: Karen Watters Cole
Cc: futurework@scribe.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: RE: [Futurework] More thoughts on the London attacks

Karen,.

At 10:03 07/07/2005 -0700, you wrote:

Keith, first, let me say for everyone that we hope that fatalities and
injuries will be minimal, under the circumstances. I now see the headlines
have updated the fatalities to 33 and injuries around 1000. The phrase
"worst attack in London since WW2" has been used.


The fatality figure has yet to be topped up with the number who died in the tourist bus -- something the authorities refuse to talk about yet. Obviously, it's a more sensitive figure than any others and, in any case, they may not be sure how many have died yet -- body parts having been well scattered around.


They have changed their minds here and raised the terror alert to Orange on
mass transportation.  I'm so glad you mentioned the IRA experiences, because
one of my first random thoughts was that it's "a good thing" this happened
in the UK, already tested for their response to bombings on their home
territory.  An attack like this in the US would be seized as justification
for increased militarization, bring out the crazies (many fully armed) and
abused for all its worth politically (again).


For that reason I don't think there'll be another organised Al Qaeda attack on the American mainland. It would be counter-productive and swing popular opinion firmly behind Bush again. There may be one or two individual events, of course.


On that note, did I read that recent elections in Spain reversed or turned
back the last post-Madrid bombing elections?


Not sure what you mean here. As far as I'm aware there have been no elections since the one immediately after the Madrid bombing.


It isn't as clear to me as you think that the attacks were aimed at sullying
Bush per se; it would seem that if planned in advance they could easily have
been timed to discredit Blair for being Bush's 'co-pilot' on the Iraq war
faked intelligence and military offensive.


I'm not adamant about it being mainly an anti-Bush event but I don't think Al Qaeda have anywhere near the same animus against Blair. But, from their point of view, the G8 Conference was a happy conjunction that could aim at both. The more I think about the attack the more I think that it was very carefully planned so that it would create as much economic damage to this country as possible. It was no coincidence that it was a tourist bus that was blown up and also that it was carried out at a particular time of the day (9.00am) when it would catch commuters only. No children have been killed.

I think the pressure on Blair from the international business community in London (as well as the UK tourist industry and the London retail trade) to bring back British troops from Iraq will be considerable -- though privately expressed -- from now onwards and is likely to be successful in the coming months.


I wonder how coincidental it is that I found a headline today stating that
"there were nearly 3,200 terrorist attacks worldwide last year, a federal
counterterrorism center said yesterday, using a broader definition that
increased fivefold the number of attacks the agency had been counting."
(numbers include Iraq) *

As Blackmore was speculating earlier this morning, one has to wonder what
reaction governments take towards immigration. The EU is launching and the
US reinstituting one-way airplane flights to deport illegal aliens.** We
like to think that we've made significant progress here against racism, but
events like this force us to examine just how shallow or real those changes
are in the face of fear, real and manufactured.


The anti-immigration trend was already in full spate in the last two or three months and the Labour government followed the Tory Party in taking this on board because of the growing success of the British National Party. The idea of a biometric identity card was actually introduced two months ago as an anti-terrorist measure and the government almost succeeded in getting the support of the Tories -- and of public opinion generally. But the opposition to it grew surprisingly quickly and the Tories took advantage by turning against it also. It was then that government ministers started talking about the identity card being able to prevent welfare benefit fraud -- in other words, immigrants -- which is what the public feel most strongly about.


In my readings and writings about the separation of church and state, in
pointing my shame finger at religious cultural wars, I keep thinking how
much goodwill it might generate if the President attended church in
different faiths, perhaps quarterly (to allow the Secret Service to
prepare). It could allay much of the suspicion in the Muslim world that
American imperialism is really a jihad against Islam, and it would
discourage or at least quiet the zealots of Christianity from the language
that has been used to justify imperialism.  It wouldn't deter real
terrorists, of course, but advance the image of traditional American values
promoting diversity and democracy.


I rather think attempts like this are seen through -- whether they are sincere or not.


Unfortunately, if these were just photo ops to counter sagging polls, the
message would be superficial at best. Mr. Bush has a credibility problem
with too many of us that even his reasonable, comforting statements are no
longer taken seriously.

They say we are revealed by our reaction to events. Bush has been running on
one track since 9/11 but the 'political capital' has been running low.  His
response to this and events unfolding in the next 6 weeks will tell us
whether or not the summer of 2005 will become what the summer of 1968 was
for another earlier troubled Republican president.  It'll be interesting to
see how Blair/Brown respond, as well.


I think that secret talks between extremist Sunnis and the CIA/State Department have been extensive for a long time (probably originally organised by Negroponte when he was there) but the sticking point is the retention of long-term American bases in Iraq even if the bulk of the troops go home -- which I think Bush would gladly do at the drop of a hat otherwise. I see that Iran, since the last election, is now raising this very pointedly. Another problem in Iraq which is now rearing its head is that between the Basra Shias and the Shia-dominated 'government' in Baghdad. Sunnis are now being persecuted in Basra in the same way that they are in the Kurdish region and what is a de facto independent Shiastan (as the de facto Kurdistan) might well become a de jure one if Ayatollah Sistani can't hold the ring for much longer or dies.

Keith




Keith Hudson, Bath, England, <www.evolutionary-economics.org>

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