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Dear Fred,
I am hereby appealing to you - as one of the co-ordinators of the Goa
Research Net - to verify why my messages (below) of the 23rd and of the 20th
of this month did not circulate. Or ... is it that I am subscribed to GRN to
receive but not to post messages?
Jorge
----- Original Message -----
From: Jorge/Livia de Abreu Noronha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: GRN: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [goa-research-net] Colonization, colonialism and creoles
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:49 PM:
>
> > I guess I didn't explain myself correctly on the suggestion concerning a
> > konkani creole. I was not going back to the tiring discussion on whether
> > konkani is a creole of marathi or not (it's like asking if portuguese,
> > galician or catalan are creloes of castillan). My issue is different.
> > People around Goa, both hindus and catholics, tell me that the konkani
> > used by the catholics is different due to a very strong influence of
> > portuguese. What I was suggesting is that catholic konkani may be a
> > creolised version of the language (as, I am told, is apparent in the the
> > novel that Prof. Teotonio mentions, "Jacob and Dulce" by GIP, but I'm in
> > no position to have a personal opinion on the issue since I know no
> > konkani). That's all.
>
> It is not at all apparent, dear Dr. Mascarenhas: "Jacob e Dulce" is by no
> means written in creole Konkani but is perhaps the best book ever written
> in the Portuguese creole of Goa. I am reproducing below my post to GRN of
> the 20th of this month which, for reasons unknown to me (GRN
> Co-ordinators, please investigate), was not circulated.
>
> Jorge
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Text of my post of July 20, 2004 follows:
>
> Regarding Dr. Sergio Mascarenhas's message below, I just wish to make two
> points: (1) Yes, there in fact was persecution of the Konkani language by
> both the civil and the religious Portuguese authorities. From the civil
> authorities, the quest for suppression of "amchi bhas" - which was
> regarded as a possible threat to the Portuguese domination of Goa - even
> went to the point of authorising the opening of Marathi schools and
> subsidising them, but not Konkani ones. As far as the Catholic religious
> establishment is concerned, I can't forget that, when I was attending the
> Rachol Seminary in the 1940s, though Devnagri Konkani and Marathi were
> taught as a discipline of the 3rd year of the "Curso Preparatorio"
> (Humanities), during our normal life we were prohibited to speak Konkani -
> by orders, so we were told, given by the Patriarch's office in Panjim. (2)
> Regarding Dr. Sergio's «Goa didn't produce a creole. Those that know
> portuguese know portuguese, not a creole variant», I am afraid I must
> again contradict him, as Goa did produce a creole. A book edited by the
> "Comissao Nacional para as Comemoracoes dos Descobrimentos Portugueses"
> (Lisbon, 1998), with the title "Estudos sobre os Crioulos
> Indo-Portugueses", contains the following essays of Sebastiao Rodolfo
> Dalgado: "Dialecto indo-portugues de Goa", "Dialecto indo-portugues de
> Damao", "Dialecto indo-portugues do Norte" and "Dialecto indo-portugues do
> Negapatao". Besides, there is a book titled "Dialecto indo-portugues de
> Ceylao", authored by S.R. Dalgado, printed at the "Imprensa Nacional"
> (Lisbon) in 1900 and again - with an introduction by Ian Smith - by the
> said C.N.C. Descobrimentos Portugueses in 1998.
>
> As for Prof. Dr. Teotonio de Souza's request for someone to «clarify if
> indo-portuguese dialects can be called Portuguese creoles of India», the
> reply is in the affirmative. Sebastiao Rodolfo Dalgado himself, in the
> Preamble to "Dialecto Indo-Portugues de Ceylao", refers to "os crioulos
> portugueses indianos em geral, e do Ceylao em particular"; and in the
> short introductory note to his "Dialecto indo-portugues de Goa" he again
> refers to "dialectos ou crioulos indo-portugueses".
>
> In respect of the Indo-Portuguese creole of Goa, this existed side by side
> with the pure Portuguese spoken in the terrotory. The best written
> specimen of the Indo-Portuguese creole of Goa is the book "Jacob e Dulce.
> Scenas da vida indiana" by Francisco Joao da Costa who used the pseudonym
> "Gip" (Tipografia da Casa Luso-Francesa, Nova Goa, 1907 - 2a. edicao).
> Dalgado quotes extensively from this book, where one can find creole
> sentences like "Em nos caz nao ha bacia ... ha tambio" ("Em nos caz", a
> literal translation from the Konkani "amchea gharant"), "A mim mano
> Francisco matou", instead of "O mano Francisco bateu-me" (a literal
> translation from Konkani: "Mhaka man' Franciscan marlem"), and "Mano Jacob
> esta na quintal, sobre durig" (Konkani "durig" instead of Portuguese
> "muro", and "na quintal" instead of "no quintal", perhaps a reminiscence
> of the Konkani term "bag" which is feminine).
>
> Finally, referring to Dr. Teotonio's today's post titled «Chinese, Malay,
> Arab, Persian creoles?», wherein he cites the essay «"Dialecto
> indo-portugues de Goa", in *Revista Lusitana*, VI, 1900, pp. 63-84» as
> having been written by Cunha Rivara, may I please be allowed to correct
> him by saying that the writer of that essay was Mgr. Sebastiao Rodolfo
> Dalgado. It is reproduced in pages 37 to 65 of the book "Estudos sobre os
> Crioulos Indo-Portugueses" which I mentioned in #2 of my reply to Dr.
> Sergio Mascarenhas, above.
>
> Jorge de Abreu Noronha
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sergio Mascarenhas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 9:38 AM
> Subject: RE: [goa-research-net] Calling upon GRN ethnolinguists
> /anthropologists
>
>
> > Well, I guess this mixes several different issues.
> >
> > On point one, yes, there are indo-portuguese creoles in India. For
> > instance, that's the case of the language spoken by Catholic Damanese at
> > home, and among the Catholics from Chaul. There are also the creoles of
> > Sri Lanka, on all accounts part of India in cultural terms. I suspect
> > that there were a lot more indo-portuguese creoles in India in the past
> > but most of them vanished by now. Those that still survive will most
> > likely vanish as well in the coming decades. Goa didn't produce a
> > creole. Those that know portuguese know portuguese, not a creole
> > variant. The reason is simple: Against what some nationalistic voices
> > keep claiming the Portuguese never attempted to erradicate concanim.
> > Since goans had their own language and were able to keep it, they didn't
> > need a creole.
> >
> > On point two, no, it is not a hangover of colonial times. Just look at
> > Cap Verde, Reunion Island and Mauritius, Malaca, and so many other
> > places where local people are protecting and defending their creole
> > languages and you will see that it has nothing to do with hangovers on
> > the part of the inheritant of past coloniser powers. The creoles of
> > today are in the same relation to their mother languages than
> > Portuguese, French, Spanish or Italian to Latin. Would that mean that
> > the speakers of those languages are living today a hangover to the Roman
> > colonial past? It makes no sense to think about hangovers of colonial
> > times. It's a completely useless concept.
> >
> > Language is connected with politics and politics have a lot to do with
> > demographics. Portuguese speaking countries like French speaking,
> > Chinese speaking, etc. are trying to tap into the human resources and
> > associated power base that the language provides. It has nothting to do
> > with the past, it's all about the present. Yes, the spread of languages
> > was always through colonisation - and still is. And colonisation used
> > language as a tool. But the arithmetics of power today are different.
> >
> > On point three, what is a colonial country? France, Portugal, Holand,
> > Spain and England? Or does it include China that has been colonizying
> > East Asia since times immemorial (the most recent case of Chinese
> > colonisation is Taiwan)? Java that before, under and after the Dutch has
> > been colonising South East Asia? North India with its recent attempts to
> > impose Hindi in the south of the subcontinent? The imposition of British
> > India laws, language, economy and custums in former Portuguese India?
> > There are plenty more examples. Colonisation is a very old process that
> > must have been working ever since men developped independent societies.
> > It didn't stop with the independence of former European colonies.
> >
> > Sergio
> >
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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