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Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Peter [With apologies to those Goanetters who may be absolutely bored of this issue by now. Hopefully this will be my last post on this topic, so please bear with me!] Sorry I took longer to reply to your post than intended. Out of curiosity, I got reading the full texts of many of Hitler's speeches and these took ages. They definitely confirm my contention that Hitler was a Catholic, irrespective of the general consensus that, he was a monster and an extremely obnoxious character responsible for WW2 and the murder of millions. 1. Although you did not explain why you found my original statement about Hitler as a Catholic to be a source of humour, you have basically agreed with me that Hitler was a Catholic. You called him a "cultural" Catholic. This is fine by me. Thank you. I had of course gone beyond your description. >From the historical evidence-- his declared belief in God, Jesus and Catholicism is very clear even though we can never truly know, as with anybody else, what exactly he believed within his Catholic faith. I am however well satisfied that he was misguided in his faith, just as Osama bin Laden is, with regard to his stated devotion to Islam. While some Goanetters are happy to refer to Bin Laden as an Islamo Fascist, I am in absolute agreement with Aristo that Hitler was a Catholic Fascist and in good company with other WW2 Catholic Fascists like Franco (helped greatly by Hitler in the Spanish Civil War), and Mussolini. So now, let's look at some differences in our interpretations about Hitler the Catholic! Conjectures and refutations, as in science, are the very stuff of the historical process. And as knowledge is provisional because it is continuously evolving and changing, (as distinct from useful and necessary, 'Western' formulaic working facts like 2+2=4) there is always room for much re-examination of facts and interpretations to be able to have a fruitful discussion on any topic. But before we do this, I'd like to clarify a misunderstanding from my earlier statement on Goanet (but not linked to you) that, all knowledge is provisional. This has been seemingly provocative to at least one particularly vociferous poster on Goanet. That all knowledge is provisional does not mean that it is not possible to arrive at a consensus about aspects of what is true and not true. Nor is there an acceptance that everything is relative, nor that consensual truth is provisional, or that historians merely re-define facts. Historians and all people in the knowledge industry, re-examine data continuously, not re-define it, except exceptionally. The recent example of Pluto, or about the contested view about who actually won in Lebanon, notwithstanding the cover page of the recent Economist that, Hizbullah did, illustrates my point about provisionality at any historical time. Above all, it is difficult to be dogmatic about most things outside the realm of belief. Healthy scepticism and criticality are most valued in our over-arching knowledge industry today. I therefore hope this provides some clarification to at least one poster who has been inclined to be rather over-reliant on commonsense instead of being better read and informed as I believe you definitely are! 2. To reiterate, I had said that: a) Hitler was born and nurtured a Catholic, b) is on record in his own words and the words of his close associates that he was a Catholic, c) practised every public aspect of Catholicism such as church attendance, taking the sacraments, and faithfully paying his dues (taxes) to the Catholic Church, d) was never excommunicated, e) had a productive working relationship with the Vatican, minimally, through a Concordant, f) instituted the Double Cross used in the Church which constituted the Swastika superimposed on the Crucifix, g) that there is a huge quantity of photographic evidence to confirm much of the above. All such empirical evidence does make it much easier to 'prove' that Hitler was a Catholic rather than to 'prove' that he was not a Catholic which clearly requires an appeal to untestable faith issues. 3. In turn, whilst stating that Hitler was a "cultural" Catholic, you said that the word Christian meant different things in different parts of the world and illustrated this with reference to America, England, India and Lebanon. I do not dispute this at all. However, all my claims about Hitler centred on our knowledge of Hitler when alive in Germany/Europe of the time. Therefore, with respect, I do not see the relevance of what you said above in the context of the time. I do not reject your point that, " "cultural" Catholicism is different from the Roman Catholic religion and practise" but contend that they definitely merge into each other. Indeed, unless you can provide evidence emanating from the Vatican itself making this sharp distinction I will remain sceptical of your view. However, I do accept your point about Hitler the politician who would use any means to make his case, including adherence to Catholicism. Later., for the purposes of argument, you say that, I "have not provided evidence that the groups you describe ....are indeed religiously Catholic" But I am afraid you could not be more wrong. The historical evidence is indeed absolutely clear that Hitler was religiously Catholic as stated in 1. above and I will briefly reiterate later what supports this view from Hitler's many public speeches which I read very recently. You accept my view that Hitler was pragmatic re his dealings with a wholly Christian Germany and also with the Vatican. However, more significantly, I also said that he had deep personal Catholic beliefs and convictions. Also, when you say that "he was not really a practising Catholic, but one of convenience" you do not indicate what specific further evidence, than I provided, you require that he was entirely a practising Catholic? Re your point in relation to the discussion on Hitler doing the Lord's work in eliminating the Jews, I believe he was entirely wrong on this count even though there is historical evidence of anti-Semitism in the Catholic Church. To my mind, murder is wrong anywhere, anytime, including in the matter of State executions of criminals. The murderous situation in Iraq today could not be condoned by anyone too. I agree with you that "Hitler at his word...[represented] a contradiction of Jesus' own words" You go on to say that that [Jesus] instructed his disciples to speak to the "lost sheep in the house of Israel" Indeed, this is precisely why I find strange the purists on Goanet, in relation to "the rock solid Christian code" who are stridently keen to discount Hitler as a Catholic. Hitler was most certainly the lost sheep! Some of our fellow Goanetters are determined to be judge, jury and executioner on all they behold and as I said before, this is a pretty unchristian thing to do. Also remember that Christ said "judge not that ye be judged." Even the Vatican chose not to excommunicate Hitler when his evil deeds were well known. When you ask "are you aware of any statements from Rome actually endorsing his genocidal actions" my answer is no but there was much silent endorsement 'endorsement' as far as the Jews were concerned. This is discussed in a lot of literature. You make a particularly interesting speculative point relating to the Church's congratulatory messages to Hitler when he had survived an assassination attempt on his life. You say, "perhaps their reaction can be attributed to their relief at seeing him being offered by 'Providence' one more opportunity at redemption? I am guessing here." I find this idea particularly welcome. It is my view too and one that hopefully, our rock solid Christians on Goanet might consider. 4. I now refer to your view that I had "lifted" material from an article from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. But I have to tell you that I have definitely not encountered such a Foundation or a similar one. If I had, I would have been careful about its likely hidden agenda. Let me also tell you that the material available on the Net (depending on different search engines), to any Goanetter typing in "Hitler" and "Catholicism" would provide access to material freely available and usable to one and all. I had also pointed out that what is on the Net is normally first available in serious texts. I have such texts in my possession and indeed had named just four. Such texts, were used by me in academia, twenty years before the Net was invented Young Peter! Indeed, the current debate about Hitler on Goanet was the grist of much debate in academia in the 1960s, if not before! It may well be new to you Peter, but it is pretty old hat to me! I also want to suggest that, I was not writing an academic piece or even for Goa Research Net, that would necessarily have to follow academic conventions or protocols. Such protocols minimally need, in the text, name of author, date of publication, and page reference for quotes. Additionally, a bibliography would be required. When did you last see on Goanet, through much use of Net material, a rigorous adherence to academic conventions to suddenly require this from me? and to impute smugly, "that an experienced professor would know better?" Yes, I definitely know better Peter, that the Net can be an excellent pointer towards useful material but it can also be a notoriously unreliable source at times because it is unregulated in every sense of the word. Consequently, correct/reliable references are not always provided and it is often difficult to ascertain the correct source of the information. I also know that when I write an academic piece, I only use the Net as a pointer but check out actual sources in books or published (refereed) material available in conventional print. In short, I drew from a number of sources, including books and the Net that merely regurgitated what material I had, to hand, in books at home and which had been my teaching source material. Where necessary in my post, I quoted material using speech marks and I then commented on what had been quoted. 5. And almost finally, re the verbatim speeches of Hitler, which are widely available, they focus on some key issues and some of which were originally provided in his book Mein Kampf: a) the unfairness of the Treaty of Versailles, following Germany's defeat in 1918, and especially the harsh reparations and contemptuous treatment of Germany by the victorious French, b) the absolute imperative to re-assert German power and hegemony, c) Hitler's absolute conviction of the treachery of the Jews in a historical context. His logic here takes some beating! d) his strong reservations about the Western idea and practise of democracy. He emphasised very strongly that, only National Socialism was the answer to Germany's needs, e) he was totally opposed to the communist godless Soviet Union. He contrasted this with the superiority of a Christian Germany and I can't emphasise enough his attestation to profound belief in God and Jesus. This was emphasised very strongly and repeatedly. He also appealed for help in his mission from his acknowledged maker (God) and from Christ. He avoided references to Catholicism because clearly, the word Christian was more appropriate in Germany, with Catholics and Protestants constituting the bulk of the population. f) his racism comes through very strongly, and not only regarding the Jews whom he saw as absolutely parasitical. He definitely saw all other groups as inferior to the superior Aryan Germans. The Slavs in particular, were to provide slave labour to the Germans. Peculiarly, he rated the British highly and as people he would start to work with in partnership, in his anticipated 1000 year Reich. He also wanted to use the same techniques as Britain, to control, with small numbers, vast numbers in the Empire. g) eugenics played a strong part in his speeches. 6. Peter, in your additional post suggesting that, Hitler saw the withering of the Church in the German Reich, you are absolutely correct. In the 1000 year Reich posterity, he envisaged the essence of Nazism transcending Christianity in the long term. In effect, he was asserting that Nazism would be the new 'religion' in the place of Christianity. One main reason for this was to ensure that, Christianity with its proven internal sustaining vitality, would not be a competitor for Nazi minds. Such extremism, was not terribly different from the Soviet Union's failed attempt to produce the perfect 'communist man/woman' devoid of bourgeois values and strongly divorced from the Christian Church. 7.To sum up, I am glad you agree with my view that indeed Hitler was a Catholic. You referred to him as a "cultural" Catholic and I understand exactly what you mean. However, I saw much more in the man. I claim, from the available evidence that, he was a devout believer in Catholicism in his own distinct way, but which, understandably, is anathema to most Catholics today. However, Christ had plenty of time for sinners and Magdalene comes particularly to mind. Today too, there are many 'saints' and 'sinners' (gays, atheists, agnostics and the lot, aka Gilbert), in relation to the Catholic Church but Christ had plenty of time for all of them, particularly depicted as the lost sheep but ever welcome into the Catholic fold. Indeed this is very much the true essence of Christianity rather than the blatant bigotry depicted by some on Goanet. Thank you for making it possible to have a fruitful discussion with you. I genuinely enjoyed this even if we may not necessarily be in agreement. My apologies for the long post. I definitely do not want to continue on this thread if I can possibly help it and therefore had to pack in a lot. Apologies too to Gilbert, who had indicated that, he finds Goanet posts too intellectual! Clearly, this kind of material, and substantial posts do not quite equate to his cerebral needs, even if he can't help laughing at times, about what we may write in all seriousness! Regards Cornel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter D'Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <goanet@lists.goanet.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:36 AM Subject: [Goanet] Hitler,Catholicism and ...A Disappointing Surprise at the End > Hi Cornel, > Sorry for the long delay in responding to your post concerning Hitler > and the Catholic Church. I appreciate the effort you have made in > organizing your data and the time spent in writing it for those of us > who have been following this thread. Allow me to respond to your > points with comments interspersed between them. _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org