On Mon, 13 Mar 2006, Kathy Page wrote: > I'm doing a bit of byproduct research at the moment and can't figure > out why there is such a clearly understood, but as-of-yet not terribly > well supported belief that English women didn't wear underwear for, at > the very least the 1500-1600 block of time. They were worn at other > points in time - bikini type appear in illuminations through the > middle ages. All over continental Europe at various periods they were > the norm.
I think it is not safe to generalize about "through the middle ages" and "all over continental Europe." Certainly in Gothic-era Western Europe (before 1500) there is no good evidence for women wearing anything under their shifts. There are a handful of images that get trotted out as underwear examples whenever this comes up, but as we've hashed out multiple times on this list (and as Heather Rose Jones ably showed during her presentation on this topic at the Medieval Congress a few years ago*) each of these is clearly designed to be an exception to accepted practice: e.g. an image of a cross-dressing saint, a satiric view of an uppity woman taking the man's role, etc. Balance that with a handful of written references that make it clear that women were expected to be panty-less as a norm, and a huge quantity of images in which underwear might be expected but is absent, and the case is really quite strong. I certainly don't know of a vast quantity of medieval European illuminations of "bikini" underwear on women. On men, yes. In Roman art, yes (but then possibly in certain circumstances only, e.g. athletic wear). Maybe one or two medieval images I can think of that fall into the category above of deliberate exceptions that prove the rule. As you move away from England, and away from Western Europe, you might have a better case. I do agree that the 16th c. saw the movement of female underwear into Western Europe, as you have described: > From the Middle East to Spain, > From Spain to Italy, > From Italy to France, I believe there's a reference to one or two sets of drawers in Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe, but no evidence that she actually wore them (vs. them being gifts from foreign ambassadors and novelties). On the other hand, her wardrobe accounts record vast quantities of those items that she did wear on a daily basis, down to pins by the thousands and many personal items, and one would think that if she wore drawers routinely they would be recorded along with the rest of the wardrobe. > Best I can find right now are two implied statements from Fynes > Morryson and Samuel Pepys. Neither actually out right say "English > women don't wear underwear", the implication is through their reaction > to continental women that do. That's exactly the sort of evidence you're likely to find. If something isn't routinely worn, isn't considered normal or typical, people don't talk or write about it much, except when they have occasion to talk about those who do wear it (e.g. those bizarre foreigners). The absence of other evidence is a pretty good indicator that the items simply weren't around -- not just the pictures that show men with drawers and women without, but also documentary evidence, e.g. the lack of mention of drawers along with chemises, caps, and other linen goods in milliners' shop lists. An analogy: How often do people today talk about women not wearing neckties? If you were trying to show through documents and artwork that women in the USA c. 2000 don't wear neckties, what kind of evidence would you have? > Just where is this coming from??? Not sure what your question is -- you mean, where do people get the idea that English women didn't wear underwear till, at best, late in the 16th c., and most likely not till later? Perhaps it's true? If you find solid evidence to the contrary, I know this list will be very happy to hear it. --Robin *coming soon to a volume of Medieval Clothing & Textiles ... vol. 4 I hope (right, Heather?) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
