On Saturday 30 October 2010 03:42:27, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote: > On 30 October 2010 12:22, Lauri Alanko <l...@iki.fi> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 01:55:12PM -0700, Don Stewart wrote: > >> The number of subscribers to the Haskell Reddit, for example, is > >> double the -cafe@, and there are comparable numbers of questions > >> being asked on the Stack Overflow [haskell] tag, as here -- so anyone > >> who only reads -cafe@ is already missing a lot of stuff. > >> > >> A lot of the community has already voted on the efficacy of mailing > >> lists for large communities, by moving their discussion elsewhere. > > > > Do you mean that people have actually unsubscribed from the list in > > favor of only following web-based media? New people who only join the > > web forums do not "vote" since they may not even know about the > > mailing list. > > > > I know that this is a hopeless battle, but since I feel very strongly > > about this, I'll indulge in defending the mailing list even though > > this is rather off-topic. > > > > The reasons why I prefer mailing lists (and newsgroups, rest in piece) > > over web-based discussion forums: > > > > * Usability: mail and news clients provide a consistent interface to > > all the discussions, and the customizability and diversity of > > clients ensures that everyone can access the discussions the way > > they like it. In contrast, web forums come with their built-in > > interfaces, and if you don't like them, you are SOL. > > > > * Scalability: related to the above, since mail and news provide a > > consistent interface to all the discussions, adding new lists and > > groups to be followed requires minimal effort since they just show > > up as new items whose updates get tracked automatically. In the > > worst case, adding a new web forum to be followed requires visiting > > the site frequently to check whether new messages have arrived. RSS > > and similar syndication technologies help, thankfully, but support > > for them is inconsistent, and often incomplete (they might not > > notify about new comments, only new topics). I subscribe to tens of > > mailing lists without problems. I wouldn't want to try to follow > > tens of web forums regularly. > > > > * Archivability: with mail and news, it is trivial for me to get local > > copies of the discussions (and the messages I myself have written) > > which I can peruse and search to my heart's content later without > > being dependent on the continued functioning of some external > > service. Although it is possible to save web pages locally, this > > usually very inconvenient, especially if one wants the local copies > > to be kept up to date with ongoing discussions. > > > > * Offline support: related to the above, with mail and news fetching > > and sending messages are separate from reading and writing > > them. Hence one can read and write messages even when one is for > > some reason not online. Web forums practically require an online > > connection when one wants to read the discussions. > > > > * Neutrality: newsgroups are completely distributed and not controlled > > by any single entity. Mailing lists are a centralized service, but a > > purely technical one. The haskell.org mailing lists (like the rest > > of haskell.org) are directly maintained by the community. In > > contrast, external web forums like reddit and stackoverflow are > > owned by companies, and visits to the sites bring ad revenue to the > > companies. Moreover, the contents of these sites are subject to > > deletion (or perhaps even editing) by the whims of their owners. > > > > In short, the old technologies of mail and news are technically vastly > > superior to web forums, which have required additional technologies > > (e.g. RSS) to attempt to overcome the obstacles that mail and news > > solve directly. > > > > It is true that web forums are nowadays very popular and have some > > nice features that the older technologies don't. The main reason for > > this, I suspect, is money: mail and news are from the older, more > > innocent age when internet technology was driven by the desire to > > communicate efficiently instead of making money. They are by their > > nature so neutral that they provide no financial incentive to develop > > them or support them. The web, on the other hand, provides many > > opportunites to profit by offering services, so it is no wonder that > > web technologies have flourished in the commercialized internet. > > > > Perhaps this is inevitable, and it is certainly ok for the haskell.org > > front page to provide links to reddit and stackoverflow just to inform > > visitors that these sites might be of interest. > > > > But by saying "I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell > > Reddit and Stack Overflow" you are effectively saying: "please let > > Condé Nast Digital and Stack Overflow Internet Services, Inc > > capitalize on your interest in and knowledge of Haskell". I most > > strongly object to this becoming the standard policy of the Haskell > > community. > > +1; that's pretty much my opinion/arguments as well.
+1; same here. _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe