always nice to read the list going on - just to throw in my two cents:
Two German proverbs came to my mind:
Angst ist ein schlechter Ratgeber.
Der Mensch lebt von der Hoffnung.
----- Original Message -----
From: klaus gauger
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 1:25 PM
Subject: AW: AW: [juenger_org] Modern technology
Dear Simon,
it´s impossible to put back the genie in the bottle. Modern technology
can fail oder suceed, but our destiny is definitely connected with the progress
enlightment and technology as his instrument did bring to us. If the "project
of modernity", to call it that way, will fail or suceed is something we can
only speculate about. Some people are sceptical, some are optimistic, some are
pessimistic, and most people are not interested in this crucial question
anyway, because the don´t even understand in what a dangerous situation we are
right now. I can only emphasize what Jünger said to the german youth: "Es ist
besser in der Hoffnung zu leben als in der Furcht". Fear is a feeling that
usually leads to hysterical reactions. To be calm, to think positive and to
have hope and to do what is necessary, all this is much more productive and
leads to better results.
Yours,
Klaus
--- Simon Friedrich <simonfriedr...@yahoo.de> schrieb am Mo, 28.12.2009:
Von: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedr...@yahoo.de>
Betreff: AW: AW: [juenger_org] anarchist and anarch definition
An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Datum: Montag, 28. Dezember 2009, 12:12
Yes, I agree. Although I think that Juenger would have said that
there is a demonic spirit in technology, which like the genie in the bottle,
compels one to use it in one way or another - it cannot simply be ignored.
Given the spiritual level of contemporary mankind, the application of this
power today ends in a general disaster. Specific successes may seem to happen,
but the general direction is towards technological catastrophe.
Since it is highly unlikely, actually impossible, that we suddenly
enlighten ourselves and use the power to really solve problems, it would be
better if we could put the genie back in the bottle. This may not be impossible
- returning gods could certainly disempower the genies. Or forbid them.
What will bring the gods back? An effort of ours or simply the
turning of the heavens?
Or sufficiently strong hope? "It is better to live in hope than in
fear" - above all, this should be understood as a hoping for the return of
superior powers to guide mankind.
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Von: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 22. Dezember 2009, 13:55:32 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] anarchist and anarch definition
Dear Simon,
as always I agree totally with you, the accurate term is
"anarch", not "anarchist", and Jüngers ideas were mainly based on some central
ideas of Stirner, who is not a classical anarchist. But Jünger maybe was not so
desperate about progress in general. At least he believed in technological
progress, though he knew this kind of progress is not able to solve all our
problems. This is the difference to primitive "enlighted" people who think that
technology as the instrument of enlightment will solve everything. Jünger knew
that real progress always means also a progress in humanity. And this progress
is difficult to achieve and can always be lost again. Jünger was sceptical
about progress, but he did always have a certain hope that progress can happen
and can lead us into a brighter future. As he said as an advice to the german
youth: "Es ist besser in der Hoffnung zu leben als in der Furcht".
Yours,
Klaus
--- Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> schrieb am Di,
22.12.2009:
Von: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
Betreff: [juenger_org] anarchist and anarch definition
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Dienstag, 22. Dezember 2009, 12:38
Klaus, even though you qualify Juenger as a contemplative,
non-violent anarchist, I would still avoid using that word to define him. I
understand that anarch is not a commonly-known definition like anarchist, and
so it is simpler to put Juenger in to the closest known category, with the
anarchists. But why continue with an inaccuracy - why not use his own term, the
anarch? This may gradually promote awareness of the new concept.
Fundamentally Juenger is not an anarchist, because, at least
in my understanding, every anarchist believes in the possibility of improving
society, through peaceful or violent means. By the time of Eumeswil, Juenger
did not believe that.
To improve society would be to believe in progress - and the
anarch categorically denies that possibility. In fact, to believe in social
progress is a dangerous distraction - it takes one's focus from the fields
where one can really make a difference to others where control is not in our
hands, where it "just happens".In this respect, the idealists, however
well-meaning, can actually be as destructive as the obvious "bad guys".
But as you would surely agree, not believing in social
progress doesn't at all mean the anarch doesn't care for his neighbour and want
to help him - but only where it is actually possible:
"Nicht fuer die Gemeinschaft da sein, sondern fuer den
Naechsten, den Einzelnen. Und was fuer ihn tun. Das Goettliche in ihm erkennen,
dann ordnet sich alles andere – die Gesellschaft auch. SIEBZIG VERWEHT IV. "
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Von: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Montag, den 21. Dezember 2009, 17:48:42 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] ' Revolutionaries' ,
'Traditionalists' and 'Conservatives'
Dear Greg,
Jünger was an anarchist, but he refused to include in
his late conceptions the use of violence for social or political means or the
use of violence as an instrument for political and social change. So he was a
contemplative, non-violent anarchist, and this is for me the only valid and
lasting form of anarchism.
Yours,
Klaus
--- Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com> schrieb am
Mo, 21.12.2009:
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
Betreff: [juenger_org] ' Revolutionaries' ,
'Traditionalists' and 'Conservatives'
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009, 14:52
Some interesting reflections there on the
'Anarch' and 'the traditional' Simon.
I see that one of the over riding impressions
you have after watching is that Ellul clearly is a 'traditionalist' ,
specifically perhaps in that he respects certain traditional values and aspects
within diverse cultures and religions.
I have the same impression of his views --
which was why I earlier referred to him as being both 'revolutionary' and
'conservative' -- I was not, of course, absurdly suggesting that Ellul was in
any way conceptually or historically connected to thinkers like Schmitt,
Spengler, Juenger etc, but rather, my response was more in tune with your own
more general use of terminology.
I am not speaking solely of the 'Revolutionary
Conservative Movement' in Germany post WW1 here, but using those words in wider
semantic terms now : I wonder to what degree such terms as 'revolutionary' and
'conservative' -- are culturally loaded and perceived differently when
considered through quite distinct cultural, historical and social prisms ?
For example, I live in Korea, and interestingly
enough, there was a very strong active and definitely 'revolutionary' Anarchist
movement here, from the 1890's to the 1940's , partially inspired by
Propaganda of the deed, Russian nihilists, as well as Stirner, Kropotkin and
Bakunin -- However, interestingly enough, these Korean Anarchists are not
commonly remembered as unconventional figures here, but rather, as vigorously
nationalist, highly conservative, traditional figures, and are still highly
venerated as such within a highly Conservative society and culture.
I still find it an odd experience nowadays to
hear Koreans, young and old, speaking of these Korean Anarchists -- as
Conservatives and Traditionalists -- with a capital 'C'.
In any other culture, one simply does not hear
of Anarchists defined as, and discussed as being Conservatives.
A final thought, still on the theme of '
Revolutionaries' , 'Traditionalists' and 'Conservatives' -- does Juenger's
interest in Max Stirner and his development of the concept of 'The Anarch' in
any way qualify him as an 'Anarchist?'
I do not know enough about Juenger to even
begin to answer that.
Greg.
--- On Mon, 21/12/09, Simon Friedrich
<simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> wrote:
From: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
Subject: [juenger_org] Comments on Ellul and
technology
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Monday, 21 December, 2009, 12:24
Thanks for the tip about Ellul, Greg. I
listened to the whole thing.
Whatever else he may have done, the impression
from the documentary is not that of an anarchist. He evidently values
traditional societies - it is just our own technological one that he objects
to. An anarch? - I don't know what the "small actions" are that he talks of at
the end.
Anyhow, a few reflections of my own on the
video....
Ellul relates that in certain middle age
societies, a rule regarding technology existed which forbad the use of iron
tools in working the earth. Although these were undoubtedly more efficient, the
earth was considered a mother and the use of hard tools would have hurt her.
In the light of our unrestrained use of
technology, we may think such a rule ridiculous and yet when we look at how
mining (and mechanized agriculture) have degraded and impoverished the earth in
the last centuries, we understand that there was a real sense to this rule.
Respected, it would have prevented the rape of the earth that we have witnessed
in recent centuries.
Back then the extent to which our "iron"
technology would progress would have been inconceivable - and probably
considered demonic. Yet even in consideration of their own simple technology,
these civilizations followed a principle which protected the earth and
ultimately also them.
We can learn from this that technology requires
the guidance of principles - even when it seems that little damage will be
done. One never knows to what extent a technological development may progress.
A principle protects one from this danger. It allows stability to develop in a
system - 'thus far and no further'.
That is to say, restraining principles applied
to technology allow that "sustainability" to develop which so entrances our
minds and fill our rhetoric these days.
It is not more and better technology that will
bring back sustainability - it is new principles for its use. Whether these are
religiously or rationally-based is irrelevent - religious ones would probably
work better for the masses.
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
( Interestingly, his point that the modern
world is governed by the reflex, while the traditional one was governed by the
cultivated wisdom of reflection in some ways reproduces Gurdjieff's contrast
between mechanical knowing and conscious understanding. Ordinary mechanical
knowledge of anything is based on an internal interaction between two opposing
previously-register ed impressions/ thoughts regarding the subject, with the
result of this interaction being determined by the next new impression that
happens to be received on this subject.
Conscious understanding on the other hand is
the result of the comparison of the newest impression with ALL previous
impressions on the subject, with the interaction being mediated by the will to
come to an independent personal conclusion on the matter - to have an
individual understanding that is.
In Ellul's terms, modern technological society
merely reacts sequentially to the latest impression, coming to a temporary
conclusion which will be surplanted by the next random input - its path is
guided by the last random information that it receives, which mechanically
changes what it previously held true. It possesses merely updated and changing
information, rather than growing cognition.)
------------------------------------------------
Von: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Montag, den 21. Dezember 2009,
11:51:49 Uhr
Betreff: AW: [juenger_org] FG Juenger (and
'anti technology') und Ozzy Osbourne und Ernst Jünger
Hi Simon,
these are good news. This book from F.G. Jünger
impressed me a lot and it is worth to be translated in such an important
language like English.
Yours,
Klaus
P.S.: Lieber TW, wie ich gerade festgestellt
habe, stehen die Privatadressen der Mitglieder bei den Mails in der Liste
sowieso immer dabei. Insofern kann man Privatgespräche immer auf Privatadressen
umleiten. Aber Ozzy Osbourne ist nicht so weit weg von Ernst Jünger wie Sie
vielleicht glauben: Er ist auch ein "Abenteuerliches Herz" und hat mit Drogen
experimentiert, wie Jünger auch, und seine Musik ist, wie Ernst Jüngers
Literatur auch, ein Produkt des Lebens des Autors. Ich würde es mal so sagen:
Wäre Ernst Jünger als britisches Unterschichtenkind in Nordengland nach dem
Zweiten Weltkrieg geboren worden, wäre er vielleicht ein Heavy-Metal- Musiker
geworden und hätte auf der Bühne "Schwermetallgewitt er" produziert.
--- Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
schrieb am Mo, 21.12.2009:
Von: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
Betreff: [juenger_org] FG Juenger (and 'anti
technology')
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Datum: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009, 11:32
Hi Greg, Joel, Klaus, Tobias etc,
Glad you reawakened the list from its
winterschlaf!
To get back on topic ;-) I just got this email
from Alethes Press regarding republication of The Failure of Technology.
Dear Mr. Friedrich,
Yes, we will be publishing The Perfection of
Technology, in a new translation from the 4th and final German
edition--sometime in spring 2010. We've had (and are still going through) some
major reorganization for the rest of 2009 and early 2010; which frankly
explains the delay in getting the book out and in getting back to you--for
which we apologize. The horrible economy hasn't helped at all, as you can
imagine.
Many, many thanks.
Alethes Press
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
------------------------------------------------
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Samstag, den 19. Dezember 2009,
6:19:31 Uhr
Betreff: [juenger_org] Juenger and 'anti
technology'
Hello everyone.
Since recent discussion has been about Juenger
and Heidegger's views on technology, I thought I'd send a link to Jacques
Ellul's 'anti technology' interviews.
I know little about Jacques Ellul -- he was an
anarchist, but also a contemplative ( similarities to Tolstoy's Anarchism
particularly inspired by Sermon on the Mount perhaps? ).
Judging from the interview, he could also be
viewed as a 'revolutionary conservative' , though I know that some object to
that term ,considering it as inherently semantically incongruous.
Anyway, the film is most certainly naive, and
definitely dated in places -- but there are perhaps some gems here that the
boarders may enjoy.
http://www.rerunpro ducties.nl/ film%20ellul.htm
Greg.
--- On Wed, 18/11/09, Simon Friedrich
<simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> wrote:
From: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
Subject: AW: [juenger_org] Juenger and German
mysticism
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Wednesday, 18 November, 2009, 10:03
Thanks for the interesting reflections, Greg.
Certainly the writings of true mystics must resemble each other - the paths
converge near the peak.
But I'm out of my depth when it comes to
Buddhist scripture.
Coincidentally I'm reading Aldous Huxley's "The
Perennial Philosophy" at the moment - from what I understand of your interests
and background, you'd find it fascinating. You'll find much comparison in this
book between German mystics and Buddhism.
Comparative mysticism from the point of view of
a broadly-read near-mystic himself. Huxley was certainly on the level of
Juenger - perhaps not in terms of action, but certainly in terms of insight.
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
------------------------------------------------
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 18. November 2009,
3:32:04 Uhr
Betreff: [juenger_org] Juenger and German
mysticism
Simon, that's fantastic -- thanks very much
indeed for the translation.
I am really gaining a lot from these pages, and
I really appreciate you sending it.
Bear in mind I am really new to Juenger and
know little about his work -- I have only been reading him for around six
months, but a lot of what I have read recently reminds me so much of early
Theravada thought, as exemplified by the Tripitaka ( The Sutta Collections ).
I do not know that much at all about historical
connections, but I do believe these Theravada Suttas had influence in German
thought -- Wasn't Schopenhauer very interested in early Theravada concepts and
Advaita Vedanta? ( I believe that's why he was always dismissed by many British
academics as being 'negative' and 'nihilistic' )
Or has that awareness and state of mind long
been in 'the German psyche', existing quite separately from Schopenhauer' s
interest in those texts ? I am thinking here of men like Silesius and Meister
Eckhardt, whose perspectives on the world and man had strong similarities to
Thervadin thought and Advaita Vedanta -- but clearly had no connection
whatsoever to those texts, and had no immediate historical influence from those
specific texts: Those perceptions already existed within schools of German
mysticism and in other European schools of thought.
Just some thoughts -- these are just some
instinctive responses and speculations.
Thanks again Simon -- fantastic work.
Greg.
--- On Mon, 16/11/09, Simon Friedrich
<simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> wrote:
From: Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de>
Subject: [juenger_org] An der Zollstation
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Monday, 16 November, 2009, 9:48
Sorry, here's the attachment refered to.
Simon
http://ernst- juenger.blogspot .com
------------------------------------------------
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Samstag, den 14. November 2009,
7:27:13 Uhr
Betreff: [juenger_org] War and human response.
And here is a further link related to the
earlier one . It makes for frightening, chilling reading, but I consider it
relevant not only to Junger's early work, but also relevant especially in the
light of recent events in USA.
http://findarticles .com/p/articles/ mi_m0EXI/
is_2_19/ai_ 84542213/ ?tag=content; col1
Greg.
--- On Sat, 14/11/09, Gregory Whitfield
<gregd...@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
Subject: [juenger_org] Juenger and Cosmic
Insight.
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Saturday, 14 November, 2009, 6:13
Dear group,
I have been reading our web master Dr. King's
interesting work on Juenger, and carefully noting his bibliography and
footnotes too. It makes for intriguing reading, and since we have been
discussing the negative effects of technology and appalling psychological
effects of industrial scale wars, I thought I'd circulate the following ,
sourced from Dr. King's footnotes.
http://www.timeshig hereducation. co.uk/story.
asp?storyCode= 158517§ioncode=22
It reminded me of some of the ( often appalling
and frightening ) themes in "Storm of Steel."
On the point of "Storm of Steel" , I notice in
the closing chapters, Ernst Juenger seems to have had insights into the
significance of death on a number of occasions when he is badly wounded. I'd
like to ask board contributors' views on these 'flash insights' he seems to
have had when he believed himself to be 'close to' his own death -- are these
insights expanded upon in later books? To what extent does he explore the
insights further?
I am so busy now, but will get page refs later
-- basically I refer to occasions when he was shot at or bombed and in those
moments was convinced he was going to die, and seemed to have experienced
penetrating insights into 'mortality and the cosmos' at those precise moments.
All the best,
Greg.
--- On Tue, 1/9/09, John King <jejk...@yahoo.
de> wrote:
From: John King <jejk...@yahoo. de>
Subject: AW: [juenger_org] WG: Yahoo! Groups:
Willkommen bei juenger_org. Schauen Sie herein.
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 15:01
Personally I'd say the next thing to read would
be "On the Marble Cliffs", the classic novel of "Inner Emigration" from 1939.
Regards,
jk
------------------------------------------------
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 1. September 2009,
15:50:05 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [juenger_org] WG: Yahoo! Groups:
Willkommen bei juenger_org. Schauen Sie herein.
John, thanks for your rapid response.
I am fascinated by Junger, and want to see what
the long term readers have to say and advice they give as to reading lists --
As for myself, I read very widely. I wouldn't define my reading as either
"left" or "right" wing, since I have never found those labels adequate to
describe human experience. However, I'd say I have always been intrigued by
authors who have certainly left their mark on history, but in some sense, were
always indefinable fringe characters. My reading ranges from obscure Dadaists,
to Italian Futurists, to Greek philosophy ( Stoicism, & Heraclitus in
particular ) to Hindu Scripture ( Advaita Vedanta ) the Theravada Suttas , to
Meister Eckhart and Schopenhauer , La Rochefoucauld and Baudrillard etc.
Thanks for your advice, in particular,
regarding ON PAIN. Bear in mind I have only read STORM OF STEEL and am
absolutely speechless it's so great. Will ON PAIN be a good next step?
Greg.
--- On Tue, 1/9/09, John King <jejk...@yahoo.
de> wrote:
From: John King <jejk...@yahoo. de>
Subject: [juenger_org] WG: Yahoo! Groups:
Willkommen bei juenger_org. Schauen Sie herein.
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 11:34 PM
Anyone got suggestions for Mr Whitfield?
jk
----- Weitergeleitete Mail ----
Von: Gregory Whitfield <gregd...@yahoo. com>
An: juenger_org Moderator <juenger_org-
ow...@yahoogroup s.de>
Gesendet: Dienstag, den 1. September 2009,
14:41:54 Uhr
Betreff: Re: Yahoo! Groups: Willkommen bei
juenger_org. Schauen Sie herein.
Hi -- I am new to Ernst Jünger , and I am
trying to catch up on his works -- I can't believe I have missed someone so
amazing. I was very influenced by Max Stirner et al, so he works well with my
background so to speak.
I have been reading STORM OF STEEL and I am
enthralled -- what is the next best book to read? What do you all think of ON
PAIN ? It looks good, but I am a little reluctant to spend a lot of cash on it
if it's only 90 pages -- but, if it's essential reading of course, money is no
issue.
Advice please?
Thanks.
--- On Tue, 1/9/09, juenger_org Moderator
<juenger_org- ow...@yahoogroup s.de> wrote:
From: juenger_org Moderator <juenger_org-
ow...@yahoogroup s.de>
Subject: Yahoo! Groups: Willkommen bei
juenger_org. Schauen Sie herein.
To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de
Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 10:35 PM
Willkommen in der Group juenger_org bei Yahoo!
Groups.
Ihre Group wartet auf Sie, schauen Sie also
bald herein.
Und probieren Sie aus, wie einfach und dazu
noch kostenlos Sie sich austauschen und informieren können:
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* Und Sie haben viele weitere Möglichkeiten,
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Legen Sie also los! Besuchen Sie jetzt die
Group juenger_org.
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groups.yahoo. com/group/ juenger_org
Viele Grüße,
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Mit der Nutzung von Yahoo! Groups stimmen Sie
den http://de.docs. yahoo.com/ info/utos. html zu.
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