Dear Richard, your remarks are brilliant. What every reader of Jünger has to know is the fact that there are two Jüngers: The first one is the young nietzschean and nihilist Jünger, the war hero and militarist, heavily antibourgeois and part of the "conservative revolution" of the republic of Weimar. The second Jünger is the gnostic magician and somewhat catholic Jünger, writing a very special kind of "magic realism", an apolitical and philosophical Jünger without any interest to interfere personally in the politics of the Federal Republic living in a very small village in a rural area of Baden-Württemberg without any geographical connections to the important cities of Germany (In the times of the republic of Weimar Jünger was mainly a political writer, a nationalist and the intelectual head of the conservative Revolution and he lived - this was only logical - in the Berlin and was a member of the very active intelectual circles of this town). And between these two Jüngers, the one that began to write after World War I, the second one that emerged during the Third Reich, are some connections: The theme of the destiny of man in our technological age, the theme of historical progress in relation to human progress, the theme of the solitary thinker and political and social analyst in an mass society, the antibourgoise attitude, etc. But there is also a very clear distinction between these two Jüngers, and the distinction is the result of the experience of the Third Reich with its atrocities and the murdering of millions of people, not only in the battlefield, but also in the concentration camps of the nazis. Jünger was aware of what this experience meant not only for himself, but also for Germany in general, and he knew that the conservative revolution had to come to and end after this experience and that he as a former nihilist, nationalist and militarist and member of the conservative revolution had to go in an entirely new direction after this experience. And the result of this radical turn is finally the anarch with its posthistoric scepticism, his scepticism about human progress in society even if technological and historical progress is going on. Yours, Klaus
--- Richard Krähenbühl <ri...@t-online.de> schrieb am Mi, 27.1.2010: Von: Richard Krähenbühl <ri...@t-online.de> Betreff: Re: [juenger_org] The two groups of Juengerites An: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de Datum: Mittwoch, 27. Januar 2010, 5:37 Hello sir, I'm presently reading a supplenmentary volume including Ernst Juenger's very latest works, fragments and diaries. Far from being able to answer your posers presented here, still I have come across a few lines as the following, which may serve some of the purpose: Nihilism: EJ consulting the "Dictionnaire d'histoire universelle" by Michel Mourres. The book had been presented to him by a reader, and opening it he finds a handwritten dedication which reads: "As a humble sign of gratitude for your works, which have opened a way out from the imprisonment of my nihilism." EJ and the Catholic church - another diary entry: "The treasure-vault of our church chants is covered with cobwebs. We are deprived from many a consolation. What have we been trading in instead?" Not having read all of EJ's works at all, i am more current with his late writings, from which personally i can get my share of consolation, and a certain empathy towards the above grateful dedication. >From the early works i've read the "Storms of Steel", or however you would >have the "Stahlgewitter" title translated. I found the book very insightful >and excellently written and people interested in the harsh realities of WW1 >will have as good an account there as anyone will have on the US civil war by >Walt Whitman, i dare say. I must say there is something in EJ's writings; a rhythm, a magic touch which perhaps may escape any attempt at translation. He has delved deep into the well of his own mother-tongue and come out of it with something quite unique (same with his brother Friedrich Georg). Something is bound to be lost when translated, no doubt. But you're right - this is not an Ernst Juenger fanclub here. If only the majority of EJ critics were as openminded as you: we then perhaps might have a different perception of the author by the general public. How have Juenger's political views evolved with age? For the barkings of his critics he had a certain contempt; he refused to bow to them, to stand and deliver, that's obvious. The following entry's last sentence is a poignant reminder of this - i'll keep it untranslated. The whole entry also sheds some light on the "anarch" theme: "Looking back at my conduct as an anarch during the times of the Third Reich, I just remember never having greeted anyone with the compulsory "Heil Hitler!" This was a mistake which had brought me only trouble. Once on a stroll, when we enjoyed the fresh air of the Harz forest, we passed a wanderer on the way who greeted us with a forceful "Heil Hitler!", to which I replied with a friendly "good morning". We met again later at the railway station. The man pointed his finger at me and exclaimed in a loud voice: "Have you people ever met someone who refuses to pay honour to the Führer?!" As EJ had a son, his anarch attitude had impacts on his education. That resulted in a policeman who once came to his house in Kirchhorst, complaining about the kid who had not greeted him in the proper manner. "The workers in Leipzig were smarter: They did not have a distinct articulation anyway and used to greet with an enthusiast "Drei Liter!" "Heute gilt es als löblich, gegen den Strom zu schwimmen. Aber das sind Pissrinnen." Well...qu' en dites vous? Yours Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: Joel Dietz To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [juenger_org] The two groups of Juengerites I should think that the Anarch would not take the relevance of any set of ideas from any thinker for granted, but would evaluate them on their own merits. Aligning oneself with Juenger is itself an alignment with an individual or school of thought. If Niekisch, a critical observer, cannot see something other than a well articulated aesthetic Nihilism in Juenger's oeuvre, I should think it behoves the Juengerites to defend him against this claim. Were one to attempt such a defense, I should think it would crystalize along these points: (1) The distinction of Juenger's concept of the forest and "natural man" from Rousseau's (2) A thorough evaluation of Juenger's citations of Nietzsche. For instance, is Nietzsche primarily evaluated in a positive light? (3) An account of Juenger's late relationship with the Catholic church (4) A description of Juenger's evolving political views, insofar as they can be assertained, from his writings. I am disappointed that no one has attempted any such thing on any of these points, and instead we are talking about heavy metal and porntube. My understanding was that this was a Juenger discussion group, not simply a fan group. If you take offense at critical reasoning or think that this is by definition "stupid," I encourage you not to read or respond to posts of mine in the future. Jd joeldietz.com | twitter.com/ jdietz | twitter.com/ fractastical (tech) On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Simon Friedrich <simonfriedrich@ yahoo.de> wrote: Dear List, Klaus is correct in saying that a majority of people (in the world and to a lesser degree on this list) regard Juenger only in a retrospective analytical sense, while only a minority look to his ideas for their present and future value to us as ordinaryhuman beings trying to learn more about ourselves and the world. The larger group is interested in distracting itself from its own deficiencies with historical analysis and critique - this group has evidently not really perceived the extraordinary value of Juenger's insights for them. Perhaps they are also smug in their own self-ignorance and thus have little aspiration to evolve to a better version of themselves. Were they to understand their need and the value of what is being offered them in Juenger's works, they would put the historical nitpicking and time-wasting in its rightful secondary place. Each member of the second group - having sensed the value of Juenger for them as individuals, and having also understood their own comparative ignorance - wants to increase their OWN understanding of what Juenger is saying. Having a genuine and unique own-understanding is totally incompatible with any kind of pigeon-holing. (I thus appreciate Klaus's list of Juenger's characters below, a list which defies any kind of stereotyping. ) These rarer Juenger fans feel no need to align themselves with any other individuals or schools of thought etc. They do not want to pigeon-hole because they understand that such a premature action immediately stops their own further understanding. These individuals have a genuine personal NEED to understand and cannot satisfy themselves with any self-pretence or "verboasting" to others. Now is the whole lengthy discussion of Niekisch's critique of Juenger really that relevent? I read the first two or three contributions and deleted the rest unread. If distraction is the goal, www.porntube. com will be more effective. As one example, why not spend the same time and energy discussing what Juenger would have thought about the Earth's changing of its skin? In light of present occurences, an deeper or higher understanding of natural disaster could be genuine useful to humanity. I'm not feed up with this list because it is not all about intellectual onanism. Hang in there Klaus! Simon http://ernst- juenger.org Von: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de Gesendet: Samstag, den 16. Januar 2010, 12:20:50 Uhr Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger Dear Joel, Tobias Wimbauer doesn´t want us to discuss such "primitive" topics like Ozzy Osbourne on this Ernst Jünger list. Actually, I´am fed up of this list anyway. The only ones in this list that seem to share my opinions are Simon and Greg. The other ones seem to see in Jünger a sort of hero against the tendencies of modern life and modern society and modern decadence in general and try to interpret him in a single-minded conservative way. To say it clear and straight: Ernst Jünger despised classical conservatism. He was in the 20s a conservative- revolutionary, a mixture between right-wing-ideas (nietzscheanism, etc.) and leftist revolutionary dynamics and marxist conceptions of society. He was heavily antibourgoise, surely also a hedonist and somewhat of a nihilist (he loved alcolhol, drugs and women, traveling, good books, etc.) and he surely was no christian or socialist moralist, thought after World War II he blended some catholic ideas into his own conceptions. He is a man that for me belongs to the future and to the intelligent members of our society, and not to the past and not to the right-wing fringe of society, though Jünger himself was inclined to right-wing ideas. But what will you expect from a man that was a World-War-I- Hero? The political beliefs of average people of today? We now have to interpret him in a progressive way, and we don´t have to preserve him as an old, backwarded, conservative man. And that´s why I am beginning to be fed up with this list. Besides Simon and Greg (who both like me laugh about "universitarian" , "intelectual" and so called "elitarian" thinking) nobody seems to see clearly these facts. Yours, Klaus --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am Sa, 16.1.2010: Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de Datum: Samstag, 16. Januar 2010, 2:57 Klaus might have a point if he was making an argument, much along the lines of Niekisch's own critique, that Juenger's approach is ultimately a sedative to be evaluated by economic measurements. For example, Klaus states that Ozzy's worth is ultimately defined by the fact that he made millions, was able to live in LA, and created "a new genre." Presumably, Juenger would be evaluated in similar fashion. Is the underground musical scene in Germany, which I know has been mentioned on this list before, more of the same? Is the "hero" ultimately hedonistic? To be evaluated by how much money the people whom are"inspired" pay for these products? Jd On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Tobias Wimbauer <wimba...@web. de> wrote: Bitte macht doch Eure privaten Plaudereien privat und nicht Listenöffentlich. Gruss Wim. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- -- Von: "klaus gauger" <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> Gesendet: 15.01.10 06:56:41 An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger Dear Joel, maybe you should give it a try and listen to some songs of Ozzy Osbourne and also read some of their lyrics. ItŽs surely not church music, but some of these songs are really good and intelligent. When it comes to Ozzys personal life: He wasnŽt happy about his alcoholism and drug addiction either and tried several time desperately to stop it. Like many people Osbourne has a demon inside him that drives him into alcoholism and drug addiction, but he was never proud about that and he wasnŽt also proud about the things he did under the influence of alcohol and drugs. When it comes to his music and his career: He surely can be proud about that, not many poor kids with working-class background from Birmingham in England have become millionares who live in L.A. and have created a whole new music genre. Yours, Klaus --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am *Fr, 15.1.2010:* Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de Datum: Freitag, 15. Januar 2010, 3:47 I suppose I'm not very open minded about these things. Jd On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:53 PM, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo. com> wrote: Dear Joel, nihilism must not be something weak and worthless. It can also be a sign of strenght and vitality. Jünger says that in "Der Waldgang". Hedonism musnŽt also be bad, if it is combined with any sort of commitment to a cause. Ozzy Osbourne is, like many musicians, a hedonist, but he (and the other members of Black Sabbath, especially Tony Iommi) invented a new art-form, Heavy Metal, and Ozzy is commited to this art until today and has made great efforts to create songs that belong now to the history of Heavy Metal and are appreciated by many fans, like me for example. Seen from a marxist or christian morality Ozzy Osbourne surely is a ugly hedonist and nihilist, but seen from a more open-minded point of view he also is a person of high value for our society. Yours, Klaus --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am Do, 14.1.2010: > Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> > Betreff: Re: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger > An: juenger_org@ yahoogroups. de > Datum: Donnerstag, 14. Januar 2010, 20:23 > I'm not convinced. The article after > Niekisch's reviews Juenger's > "Nihilism" in greater depth. A phrase from "The Peace" > indicates a > complete rejection of this impulse, but what replaces > it? Aesthetics? > Ozzy Osbourne-like hedonistic abandonment? > > I believe the proper point of comparison would be > Hoelderlin, but I am > without conclusions, only questions. > > Jd > > On 1/14/10, Thomas Friese <thomasfriese@ ymail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bravo, Klaus! I would have replied exactly the same > way to "who finances > > it". > > > > I would add that an anarch is aware that there is no > free lunch in life. In > > one way or another, everyone pays for their choices. > But he is more aware of > > this reality and therefore attempts to choose > consciously what he is > > prepared to pay for. Most people get given their > choices already made by > > society and must still pay for what they don't > fundamentally want. > > > > The anarch also "knows the rules" and realizes that > living in society has > > its price, which he must pay if he wants to remain > there and not flee to the > > forest. > > > > Thomas > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > From: klaus gauger <klaus_gauger@ yahoo.com> > > Subject: AW: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of > Juenger > > To: juenger_org@yahoogroups.de > > Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 4:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Joel, > > > > > > it is right that Jünger always fled from society, as > a 18 year old schoolboy > > to the foreign legion, and as a old man as an anarch > into the forest. Who > > finances this freedom? That is a typical question of a > marxist. Today we > > have in modern society millions of anarchs: Young > people who donŽt want to > > make a career and donŽt want to participate in the > "rat race" and subsist > > with temporary jobs, or doing their own business, or > even with social > > welfare or who live from the money of their parents, > young people who > > experiment with drugs, travel, read, write (all the > things that Jünger did), > > sometimes temporarily, sometimes as a choosen > lifestile. They survive in the > > economical and geographical niches that modern, rich > and developed societies > > always offer. The question is not "who finances this > freedom?" the question > > is: "Do you dare to live an individualistic, > anti-conformistic life, even if > > means to have less money than average people, even if > it means that you > > donŽt get the recognition that average people get as > so called hard-working > > citizens?". Besides: Also an anarch can work very > hard. Jünger wrote a lot > > of books and earned some money with it. But an > Anarch will always do a work > > that is also rewarding for himself. He wonŽt work > only for money or because > > he has fear to be evaluated as an unworthy, lazy > outsider in society. > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Klaus > > > > > > > > --- Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> schrieb am > Mo, 4.1.2010: > > > > > > Von: Joel Dietz <jdi...@gmail. com> > > Betreff: [juenger_org] Niekisch's Critique of Juenger > > An: "juenger_org" <juenger_org@ yahoogroups. > de> > > Datum: Montag, 4. Januar 2010, 14:26 > > > > > > > > > > Was reviewing my notes on Eliot Neaman's Dubious > Past (P. 188-189), and > > came across this: > > > > In a two-page critique of the Waldgang, a copy of > which Niekisch sent to > > Juenger, the former editor of the national Bolshevist > Widerstand compared > > Juenger ot Max Stirner, whose individualism was nearly > solipsistic. Acording > > to Niekisch, Juenger doesnâ t realize how indebted > every individual is to the > > collective: indeed, he remarks, â glorious > isolationâ is a version of > > societal exploitation. Niekisch wonders why the figure > of the Waldgaenger > > has achieved such popularity among conservatives, > positing that postwar > > individualism is the last refuge o the European > intellectual, threatened by > > the mass culture of America nad the Stalinist > Leviathan of Russia. > > > > > > > > Niekisch detects in all of Juengerâ s poses the > flight from society, â whether > > in Africa, as a heroic soldier, a gourmet of > aesthetics, as a runaway from > > Hitleâ rs army in the dreamy reflection of Gardens > and Streets, as a mountain > > dweller in the cosmic sphere of Heliopolis. .. . > wherever one looks, one > > uncovers the figure of the fleeing nihilist.â > Finally, Niekisch asks, â where > > is the forest?â He considers the trees a natural > metaphor for solitude and > > refuge, comparable to Rousseauâ s idea of nature. AS > such the forest â is the > > somber feeling, the intuitive sense of the inner self, > emancipated from the > > exterior world.â Niekisch concludes with the > material question, â who > > finances this freedomâ > > > > Curious how list members would respond to Niekisch's > critiques. > > > > Best, > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen > herausragenden Schutz > > gegen Massenmails. > > http://mail. > yahoo.com > > > > > > > -- > joeldietz.com | twitter.com/ jdietz | > twitter.com/ fractastical (tech) > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > (Yahoo!-ID erforderlich) > > juenger_org- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. de > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail. yahoo.com ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail. yahoo.com -- Tobias Wimbauer | Wimbauer Buchversand Waldhof Tiefendorf Tiefendorfer Str. 66 58093 Hagen-Berchum Tel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com
