Sue Hartigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The Hubbell Tapes and Political Squabbling Evidence of a Cover-Up May Be Lost Amid Spats Tuesday, May 5, 1998 (This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.) ANNOUNCER May 5, 1998. TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS (VO) The Hubbell tapes seemed to hint at a cover—up. WEBSTER HUBBELL So I need to roll over one more time. SUZANNA HUBBELL No. TED KOPPEL (VO) But Congressman Burton only released excerpts and that gave the White House the ammunition it needed. REP HENRY WAXMAN, (D), CALIFORNIA, GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE It’s editing for political purposes and that’s what is so offensive. TED KOPPEL (VO) What wasn’t heard was Hubbell’s support for the First Lady. WEBSTER HUBBELL She just had no idea what was going on. She didn’t participate in any of this. EJ DIONNE, “THE WASHINGTON POST” A lot of people have said that President Clinton is blessed with great enemies and that in Mr Burton’s case, he makes it very easy for the White House to say this is not a fair guy. TED KOPPEL (VO) Tonight, the bumbling of the Hubbell tapes, how evidence of a cover—up may be lost amid political squabbling. ANNOUNCER From ABC News, this is Nightline. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. TED KOPPEL We return tonight to the Hubbell tapes—150 hours of telephone conversations recorded at a federal prison in Cumberland, Maryland. Webster Hubbell, who had been serving as associate attorney general under Janet Reno, was serving out his term for defrauding clients while he was a partner at the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. He could probably have avoided prison by cooperating more fully with independent counsel Kenneth Starr in his investigation of the Whitewater affair. Publicly, Hubbell has insisted all along that he knows nothing that might incriminate his old friend and law partner, Hillary Clinton, or his friend and golfing partner, the President. But in those prison telephone conversations subpoenaed by Republican Congressman Dan Burton’s committee, there appeared to be hints, suggestions and intimations that Hubbell was covering up for his friends. Then, over this past weekend, those tapes themselves came into question. Had they been selectively leaked, doctored, edited? Was there, in fact, material deliberately held back that might have actually been helpful to the Clintons in their ongoing legal battle with Kenneth Starr? Here’s the latest from Nightline correspondent Chris Bury. WEBSTER HUBBELL I’m not telling anybody what I did or who, what they paid me. CHRIS BURY, ABC NEWS (VO) Last July, the Justice Department turned over tapes of Hubbell’s calls from prison. Last week, Congressman Dan Burton, whose committee had subpoenaed those tapes, released partial excerpts of 54 conversations. The headline—Hubbell’s, apparent reluctance to say anything that might expose the Clintons to prosecution. WEBSTER HUBBELL I won’t raise those allegations that might open it up to Hillary. CHRIS BURY (VO) On Nightline, where the tapes were first broadcast, Congressman Burton insisted they had been edited only to protect Webb Hubbell’s private life. (clip from Nightline, 4/30/98) REP DAN BURTON, (R), GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE Yes. We went through the tapes to make sure that we edited out as much personal information as possible, personal conversations between Webb and his wife and his family and so forth. TED KOPPEL But has anything that we had, for example, and that we had on this program tonight, was that taken out of context? Might it have been interpreted in a different way if we’d heard the entire conversation? REP DAN BURTON No, and if Mr Hubbell’s attorney or anybody complains about the content that you put on the air, we’ll be happy to divulge the whole tapes and let him and you look at them and listen to them. CHRIS BURY (on camera) Sure enough, the complaints came fast and furious. The White House, Democrats in Congress and Hubbell’s lawyer accused Congressman Burton of playing dirty pool. They made three fundamental charges—that Burton had doctored the tapes, selectively released material most damaging to the White House and violated Hubbell’s privacy. RAHM EMANUEL, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT I don’t remember ever in the history of Congress a chairman of a committee altering and doctoring and selectively putting out information that changes both the meaning and content of those tapes. CHRIS BURY (VO) Were the tapes really doctored, as White House officials have charged? Not according to Henry Waxman, the ranking Democrat on Burton’s committee. REP HENRY WAXMAN It appears to be a selective editing of tapes in order to give a sense of the conversation that is one—sided. It is not doctoring them in the sense, in the view of putting in different words, but when you take out sections of a conversation that would give a different impression, it’s editing for political purposes and that’s what is so offensive. CHRIS BURY (VO) Waxman cites one excerpt in which Hubbell’s wife, Suzy, appears worried that he may sue the Rose Law Firm and expose Hillary Clinton to accusations of over billing. Mrs Hubbell refers to Marcia Scott, a political deputy to the President. SUZANNA HUBBELL Well, I’m the one that has to try and explain to Marcia. She said you’re not going to get any public support if you open up Hillary. Well, by public support I know exactly what she means. I’m not stupid. WEBSTER HUBBELL And I sat there and spent Saturday with you saying I would not do that. I won’t raise those allegations that might open it up to Hillary. And you know that. We talked about that. SUZANNA HUBBELL Yes. But then I get all this back from Marcia, who is ratcheting it up and making it sound like, you know, if Webb goes ahead and sues the firm back, then any support I have at the White House is gone. I mean that’s what I’m hearing. I’m hearing the squeeze play. WEBSTER HUBBELL So I need to roll over one more time. REP HENRY WAXMAN There is one instance where he put out a tape saying that Webb Hubbell was going to try to roll over in order not to implicate Hillary Clinton. But he omitted the next sentence where Webb Hubbell said of course Hillary Clinton knew nothing about the billing practices at their law firm. CHRIS BURY (VO) In fact, it is not the next sentence, but 45 minutes later in a separate conversation that Hubbell says Mrs Clinton would not be vulnerable to charges of over billing. This segment was not initially released by the Burton committee. WEBSTER HUBBELL OK? Hillary’s not, Hillary isn’t—the only thing is people say why didn’t she know what was going on. And I wish she never paid any attention to what was going on at the firm. That’s the gospel truth. She just had no idea what was going on. She didn’t participate in any of this. REP HENRY WAXMAN I think you have to look at a conversation in its entirety and not just have a part of it out there that’s most harmful to Webb Hubbell and Hillary Clinton. CHRIS BURY (VO) In a letter to Congressman Waxman, Burton conceded that the remarks Mr Hubbell made about Mrs Clinton should have been included in the transcript. But the major news organizations, including Nightline, also failed to report a cryptic line in the original tapes that appears more supportive of Mrs Clinton. WEBSTER HUBBELL You know, when it all boils down, they can’t say she [Hillary] did anything. CHRIS BURY (VO) But why the apparent discrepancy in the Hubbells’ conversations about whether or not Mrs Clinton is vulnerable? EJ DIONNE My hunch is when we listen to all of them, maybe there’s something terribly damning on them, but probably there’s going to be a certain ambiguity about them in part because Webb Hubbell is a smart guy and he knew he was being taped. So who knows if these tapes are going to be decisive. CHRIS BURY (VO) Late yesterday, in the media feeding frenzy, Burton’s office released another 43 conversations and it promises more tomorrow. Much of the material is personal, but in one June 1996 conversation with his sister, Hubbell appears concerned about betraying the President in a book he is writing. WEBSTER HUBBELL I don’t feel like, you know, that anybody can say that I’m, you know, betraying confidences if I wait until after the election. You know, you know me. I have a hard time saying anything bad about the devil. CHRIS BURY (on camera) The release of the latest batch of tapes has revived accusations that Congressman Burton is invading Webb Hubbell’s privacy. But on that point, the law appears to be on Burton’s side, despite the protests of Hubbell’s attorney. JOHN NIELDS, ATTORNEY FOR WEBSTER HUBBELL (From “This Week”) These are tapes that have confidential conversations between husband and wife, between client and lawyer. They are covered by the Privacy Act. They are not supposed to be in the public domain. CHRIS BURY (VO) But the Privacy Act specifically excludes disclosure to either house of Congress, any committee or subcommittee. Congress has wide authority to release information. What’s more, as a federal prisoner, Hubbell’s rights were severely limited, according to Georgetown University law professor Viet Dinh. VIET DINH There are signs in most of our prisons, I believe specifically in the prison that Mr Hubbell was incarcerated in, Cumberland Prison, and in the rooms that he was visiting from, posting that, indeed, these conversations were being recorded and monitored. CHRIS BURY (on camera) In fact, the Justice Department asked Burton to safeguard the tapes, but that recommendation is not binding. The fine legal points, of course, matter less than the political reality. In appearing to manipulate the Hubbell tapes for partisan advantage, Congressman Burton has given the White House plenty of ammunition. Now the tapes will be remembered less for what they revealed than for the controversy they generated and the President once again has been blessed by the bumbling of his enemies. Ted? TED KOPPEL Now, there does appear to have been a legal decision handed down today that is not quite as advantageous to the President. What can you tell us? Executive privilege. CHRIS BURY Executive privilege appears to be a significant defeat, if a temporary one, for the President. Judge Johnson, the judge in the grand jury, the Ken Starr grand jury, has ruled that presidential aides cannot invoke executive privilege in their conversations with the President or the First Lady about Monica Lewinsky. Now, we believe that three aides, Bruce Lindsey, the deputy counsel, Sidney Blumenthal, a communications advisor, and Nancy Hernreich, the President’s personal secretary (?), have all cited executive privilege in refusing to answer certain questions. TED KOPPEL Now the irony, of course, is that the President has never confirmed that he has invoked executive privilege. He’s referred reporters to his lawyers and his lawyers aren’t talking. CHRIS BURY That’s right. No one from the President down has even acknowledged whether or not the President has invoked executive privilege. This decision may force their hand because presumably the White House is going to want to appeal and then this opinion will have to be made public. TED KOPPEL And then there is talk of some maneuvering up on Capitol Hill involving our guest this evening. What can you tell me about that? CHRIS BURY We’ve heard that Democrats on the Hill, perhaps led by Congressman Waxman and Dick Gephardt, would like to introduce a sort of resolution on the floor, a privilege resolution that would seek to remove Congressman Burton from the investigation investigating campaign finance abuses. Dick Armey, the Republican majority leader, said he hadn’t heard anything about that today. TED KOPPEL Well, we’ll talk to Congressman Waxman about that in just a moment. I should tell you that we invited Congressman Dan Burton, the chairman of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee, to appear on tonight’s broadcast. He declined. But as I say, when we come back, we’ll be joined by the committee’s ranking Democrat, Congressman Henry Waxman. (Commercial Break) TED KOPPEL Joining us now from Capitol Hill, Democratic Congressman Henry Waxman. Congressman, clearly you feel, as do a number of Democrats, that Dan Burton is altogether too partisan in his zeal to bring the President down and I’m told that you and Dick Gephardt have been discussing at least possibility of a plan. You want to tell us about that? REP HENRY WAXMAN (Capitol Hill) It’s possible we could introduce a resolution asking that Dan Burton no longer head up this investigation. I hope it doesn’t come to that because I hope that Newt Gingrich and the Republican leadership look at the statements that Dan Burton has made and how he’s conducted this investigation, how he’s acted as if this is his investigation alone, that he can do whatever he wants and come to the conclusion that he’s just not the right man for the job. It’s a very sad situation, really, because we should not have come to this point where a chairman has said one day that the President is a scumbag, as Dan Burton commented, and he’s out to get him and then a week later he’s distorted the transcript of the tapes. I might have misspoken before. He never altered any tapes but he took the transcript and distorted it in order to help his political point of view. TED KOPPEL What kind of a parliamentary procedure can be used to do that? You folks are not in the majority. How do you get rid of the chairman? REP HENRY WAXMAN There’s no way we can get rid of the chairman, either as chairman or heading this particular investigation if the Republican leadership is going to stand behind him. And last week, Newt Gingrich said that, when he was asked to comment about Dan Burton’s statement that he was out to get the President and that he was a scumbag, Newt Gingrich said well some people thought that statement was too harsh, but others thought it was too soft, but he was going to stand with Dan Burton because he’s an honest man. Well, I don’t think this was a very honest thing to do, to misrepresent what was said in tapes that should never have been made—should never have been made public. They were personal conversations that Webb Hubbell had with his wife and lawyer and personal friends. TED KOPPEL You may be correct from an ethical point of view, but from a strictly legal point of view, there is absolutely nothing to preclude it, is there? REP HENRY WAXMAN If it were done by someone other than a member of Congress, it would have been an abomination. TED KOPPEL I mean, but it was done by a member of Congress ... REP HENRY WAXMAN Well ... TED KOPPEL—and he had every right to subpoena those tapes and as I understand it, he has every legal right to release those tapes. REP HENRY WAXMAN He had every right to subpoena the tapes. He did not have the legal authority to disclose them. He violated the rules of the committee and the rules of the House in making them public and had he done it as a non—member of Congress, it would have been a violation of federal law. TED KOPPEL Congressman, the charge of partisanship, well, you know, has obviously been made against you as well as against Dan Burton and it is quite clear that there is a great deal of partisanship on this committee that makes one wonder, as we watch from the outside here, whether anyone at all is really interested in getting to the truth of the matter. Let’s talk about some of the, about some of the aspects of those tapes and some of the intimations that were made in those tapes. For example, the business of the $100,000 that was given by the Riadys, by the Lippo Group to Mr Hubbell just before John Huang went from working for the Riady group to working for the Commerce Department. Now, the timing may be purely coincidental, there may be no connection whatsoever. On the other hand, there may be a connection and if there is, don’t you think that’s something your committee should be interested in? REP HENRY WAXMAN I think it’s something that ought to be investigated by someone who’s doing a responsible prosecutorial job. That’s what we’re paying Ken Starr to investigate, whether there was hush money or whether there was something improper done. He’s had these tapes and he can use these tapes as evidence in any trial. There are things in those tapes that are disturbing to me, but I don’t know the answer to them. But it’s clear our committee is not trying to find the answers. The committee chairman is simply trying to use what parts of the tapes that he could put out and try to mislead people into thinking the conclusion is to be reached one way as opposed to another. TED KOPPEL Well, let’s talk about the validity, then, of the committee in terms of examining this at all, but first we’re going to take a short break. I’ll be back with Congressman Henry Waxman in just a moment. (Commercial Break) TED KOPPEL And we’re back once again with Congressman Henry Waxman. You seem to be suggesting, Congressman, not just that you think Dan Burton is ill suited to the job of chairing this investigation, but that the committee as a whole probably shouldn’t be touching it with a 10—foot pole. REP HENRY WAXMAN Not the way this investigation has been structured and conducted. Early on, I suggested that we do a House—Senate investigation, not to do duplicative investigations and waste money, and then I suggested to the chairman we do it on a bipartisan basis. And he pretty much said no, he wanted to do his investigation his way and we spent $6 million on this investigation. It has been a very, very partisan investigation and it’s been a reckless one. TED KOPPEL Given the temper of the times it seemed to be kind of an extraordinary suggestion that you were making a couple of minutes ago and that is the notion that you felt that this investigation appropriately rests in the hands of Kenneth Starr. You may be the only Democrat in town who’s willing to say that. REP HENRY WAXMAN Well, it doesn’t appropriately belong in a committee where the chairman is just—he’s the judge, he’s the jury, he’s the prosecutor and he’s even the censor of what the public will have available to it. TED KOPPEL Ken Starr has certainly been attacked about as vociferously as any independent counsel has ever been attacked and it is quite clear that there are a lot of people from the White House on down that are trying to undermine his effectiveness. So if he can’t do it and if Congress can’t do it, then the investigation would just go away, wouldn’t it? REP HENRY WAXMAN Let me say that first of all, Congress should be investigating but they should be doing it fairly and honestly and we haven’t had that kind of investigation. TED KOPPEL You’re saying your committee can’t do it? REP HENRY WAXMAN That’s right. I think Senator Thompson tried to do a credible investigation in the Senate. TED KOPPEL Is there a committee in the House that could or are you suggesting to ... REP HENRY WAXMAN Our committee has the jurisdiction and we should have done a fair investigation and we didn’t. Now, there are prosecutors, there’s the Justice Department, there are prosecutorial agencies. We have an independent counsel law. I think it’s a, there’s a problem with the independent counsel. But we’re paying Ken Starr millions of dollars to run an investigation and let’s see what he’s going to come up with. He’s indicted Webb Hubbell on tax charges. All right. He has the authority to do that. They’ll go to court and they’ll have to prove their case. He’s had these tapes and he hasn’t charged Webb Hubbell with any kind of cover—up of anything that I’ve heard of. TED KOPPEL You have had a chance now, I assume, to look at much, if not most, if not all of the transcripts of those 150 hours of telephone conversations. Is there not material in there that troubles you, too? REP HENRY WAXMAN Yes. Quite frankly there are statements in there that are troubling, like the statement that Webb Hubbell says that he’s going to have to roll over. I don’t know what that means, although when you put it in the context of what was said later in that same conversation, even though a lot was said in between, it seems like he’s indicating that he’s not rolling over to protect Hillary Clinton because she didn’t know anything about the billing practices at the law firm. Look, I don’t know what to make of those statements. I think that they ought to be examined and looked at in the context of other evidence and that’s what Ken Starr is supposed to be doing. I’m not going to say that he’s not doing a good job until we see what kind of job he’s done and then he has to present it to a court of law. But we shouldn’t have a congressman become ... TED KOPPEL Or to congressmen, unfortunately, and then there’s a very good chance that it will end up with another committee that may even rival your own in terms of partisanship. REP HENRY WAXMAN That’s not going to be Webb Hubbell. He’s not going to be subject to impeachment. TED KOPPEL Not Webb Hubbell. You’re exactly right. REP HENRY WAXMAN And so, if there’s a case against ... TED KOPPEL But when Ken Starr finally comes up with his final report and hands that over to Congress, as he almost inevitably will, you know where it’s scheduled to go. REP HENRY WAXMAN Yes, but we’re talking about the Webb Hubbell tapes and you asked me if there are things in there that are troubling. TED KOPPEL Right. REP HENRY WAXMAN And I said there are some things that are troubling. I don’t know what to make of it and it ought to be investigated by somebody who’s going to decide if there’s enough evidence to prosecute if he’s done something wrong. And I don’t think our committee is capable of doing that and that’s what we’re paying Ken Starr $40 million to investigate and to move forward on. TED KOPPEL Well, we’ve made some news tonight. We have a Democratic congressman calling for Ken Starr to get more, even more autonomy than he has right now. REP HENRY WAXMAN He’s got plenty of autonomy. Let’s just get him to do his job and get on with it already. TED KOPPEL All right, Congressman Waxman, thanks very much indeed. -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. 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