Linux-Advocacy Digest #242, Volume #26 Tue, 25 Apr 00 11:14:09 EDT
Contents:
Re: which OS is best? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: which OS is best? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: which OS is best? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Linux kernel 2.4 (Cihl)
Re: Linux from a Windows perspective (Cihl)
Re: on installing software on linux. a worst broken system. (The Cat)
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Linux from a Windows perspective (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Government to break up Microsoft ("Chad Myers")
Where is PostScript support?? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux vs. BSD (Craig Kelley)
Re: Government to break up Microsoft (JEDIDIAH)
Re: RH linux stable?? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: RH linux stable?? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Government to break up Microsoft (Mig Mig)
Re: Where is PostScript support?? (Mig Mig)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:37:56 GMT
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:33:42 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 22 Apr 2000 22:28:43 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
>wrote:
[deletia]
>>But there is nothing easier or more consistant that a text
>>editor and no reason to learn a different interface for
>>every little task.
>
>People by the millions have proven that line of thinking to be in the
>minority. I can't say it's wrong, but I can say that most people
Not really. Those Millions of people have no problems opening
up a mail thread or a memo, editing it with a text editor and
sending it on.
The notion that they somehow can't do that which business practices
would expect them to do suddenly because the context has changed is
rather absurd.
>nowadays use the GUI, and I think the vast, vast majority of them
>prefer that to the CLI. Linux serves up both fairly well, so *I* like
The vast majority of them will look at you as if you're from another
planet once you start talking about file sharing. In the end you would
end up essentially writing a 'visual howto' for them.
>it, but I think most prefer a GUI. I think the Mac method (hide
>everything) goes too far, and I think the Linux method (show
>everything) goes too far - I think Windows (NT/2k) is good middle
>ground for most people.
[deletia]
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:40:11 GMT
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 01:07:07 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:47:14 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
>wrote:
>
>>>>There is certainly no *need* to consult a man page to use these tools.
>>>
>>>I'll beg to differ. How many millions of chips would have to work at
>>>a keyboard for how many millions of years before one randomly typed
>>>"linuxconf"? WinXX's sharing is far, far easier.
>>
>>Um, just scroll through the menus till you come to linuxconf?
>
>Which is more likely to happen - right clicking on a drive or other
The end user in question has to be aware of context menus first.
That's not necessarily a given, for a novice.
>object and seeing sharing, or finding LinuxConf in the menu (amongst
>dozens of other items), navigating through several other submenus to
>find the appropriate entries, and somehow getting it all working from
>there?
>
>C'mon...let's be real here.
Yeah, sure your arbitrary set of bells and whistles are somehow
fundementally different from someone else's bells and whistles...
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:42:28 GMT
On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 20:24:00 +0100, Mark Wilden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Leslie Mikesell wrote:
>>
>> Likewise: I've never seen anyone right-click on anything without
>> knowing they are supposed to. Perhaps a result of earlier
>> bad experiences...
>
>Experienced Windows users typically right-click in new applications
>without knowing they're 'supposed to', just as most folks on most OSs
>left-click on menu items. It's just part of the standard paradigm, that
>most apps support.
...then they aren't exactly fresh novices now anymore are they?
They've been pretrained to expect certain things out of the interface.
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux kernel 2.4
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:59:25 GMT
Donald West wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> Anyone know when this kernel is being released? Has it
> been put back?
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Want a new web-based email account ? ---> http://www.firstlinux.net
There is still a quite substantial list of possibly
humiliating bugs and other issues that have to be dealt with
first.
There really is no deadline for kernel 2.4 at all. Remember,
it's not a commercial product.
for more information, see
http://kt.linuxcare.com/kernel-traffic/index.epl
--
% make fire
Don't know how to make fire
% Why not?
No match
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux from a Windows perspective
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:04:10 GMT
> >SB 16 i have and it works without problems.... actually i remenber having
> >problems installing it but dont remenber how i solved it.
>
> I think the critical issue here might be ISA PnP. I've always
> avoided it like the plague (to my benefit). My SB16/IDE (nonpnp)
> works just fine & has been chugging along since it was in the 486.
>
In a short while, ISAPnP won't be an issue anymore. Kernel
2.4 will support ISAPnP natively.
The 2.3.99-pre-kernels already do, and it already appears to
work just fine.
--
% make fire
Don't know how to make fire
% Why not?
No match
------------------------------
From: The Cat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: on installing software on linux. a worst broken system.
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:22:58 GMT
Not even worth a response.
On 24 Apr 2000 10:21:50 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry
Porter) wrote:
TheCat (Steve)
"Agent under Wine and powered by Mandrake 7.0"
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:29:57 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting Clifford W. Racz from alt.destroy.microsoft; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:16:22
-0500
>I am a linux newbie and I have to agree with Fred on this one. Windows is
>easy to use, much easier than Linux. It simply isn't stable... if I go a
>day with only one crash, I say it was a good day.
Well, once you figure out what is wrong, I guess you won't be a newbie any
more. Good luck.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Linux from a Windows perspective
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:34:09 GMT
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:04:10 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >SB 16 i have and it works without problems.... actually i remenber having
>> >problems installing it but dont remenber how i solved it.
>>
>> I think the critical issue here might be ISA PnP. I've always
>> avoided it like the plague (to my benefit). My SB16/IDE (nonpnp)
>> works just fine & has been chugging along since it was in the 486.
>>
>
>In a short while, ISAPnP won't be an issue anymore. Kernel
>2.4 will support ISAPnP natively.
Alternately, isapnp won't be an issue anymore because it will
have finally been put out of it's misery (long overdue).
[deletia]
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:01:18 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:8e1q5m$n8l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> If, like me, you are concerned about the fact Microsoft has frozen
> progress in every software industry segment they have entered, here's
> good news:
Hey, look at that, petilon spreading FUD, what a shock!
Frozen each segment? Let's review, shall we?
- OS software is more advanced, more usefriendly, and more stable now
than ever. Apple is soon to release a finally-stable version of the
MacOS. Linux is out and popular, BSD is gaining ground steadily, and
Windows2000 is the best Windows MS has every come up with, and is a
damn fine, stable, and advanced OS that competes with anything else
out there.
Windows ME and Whislter are not far behind and bring even more
innovations and advancements.
- Office Suite Software. The Office productivity market was floundering
with old-fashioned poorly featured word processors and anemic spreadsheets
until MS arrived. Lotus, Corel, as well as other less-known suites like
ApplixWare and StarOffice have become better products because of some of
the trends that MS has started. People compute in a whole different way
because of the Office suites that MS has put out. People now do many tasks
as opposed to just simply word processing with blue-screen WordPerfect.
- Personal finance applications - With Microsoft providing stiff competition,
Inuit has been pouring more and more resources into Quicken, making it a
great and very complete product. They now include many features as well as
allow people bank online, which is a very new innovation in the banking
industry.
Shall I go on?
-Chad
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Where is PostScript support??
Date: 24 Apr 2000 17:43:46 GMT
It's nice to see a number of presentation/wordprocessing programs emerging for
Linux - geeks do need to write documents as well, not just MSWord drones.
There's just one thing that's really bugging me - none of them (AFAIK) seem to
support postscript properly. Oh, they'll all allow an EPS file to be imported,
and show a big blank square until it's sent to the printer; but this is barely
adequate at best, and if one has a lot of inline graphics, pretty much useless.
I've looked at demo versions of WordPerfect for Linux, StarOffice (not bad but
a complete resource pig) and just now downloaded Adobe FrameMaker - and WTF -
it doesn't display EPS files either. Now correct me if I'm mistaken here, but
if any product should handle postscript properly, it should be something from
Adobe...
Does anybody know of any decent wordprocessor/desktop publishing application
that can actually provide useful vector graphics filter/display capabilities?
--
.--------------------------.
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`-------------------'
------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux vs. BSD
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:12:40 -0600
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Marc Childress wrote:
> Why so? I preferred FreeBSD over linux on my 166MHz, now I have a
> 550MHz x2 and was thinking on giving FreeBSD another run.
Just that it's MP support is currently sitting where Linux was at the 2.0
kernel stage. It isn't a reason to not use FreeBSD unless you actually
need the extra granularity, of course.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:16:55 GMT
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:01:18 -0500, Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:8e1q5m$n8l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> If, like me, you are concerned about the fact Microsoft has frozen
>> progress in every software industry segment they have entered, here's
>> good news:
>
>Hey, look at that, petilon spreading FUD, what a shock!
>
>Frozen each segment? Let's review, shall we?
>
>- OS software is more advanced, more usefriendly, and more stable now
Quantify "more advanced".
As far as "more userfriendly" goes: anything M$ has ever done
has been to replicate someone else's work. Occasionally, they
would even run out of business the original 'inventor'. Other
times, the whole 'MS Hegemony' effect in the market would do
it for them.
> than ever. Apple is soon to release a finally-stable version of the
> MacOS. Linux is out and popular, BSD is gaining ground steadily, and
Actually, they have deployed MacOS frontends on Unixen before.
Nevermind the fact that what Apple is redeploying today is just
the corpse of one of those 'MS Hegemony' victims.
> Windows2000 is the best Windows MS has every come up with, and is a
Claiming that something is the best crap relative to some other
crap, is hardly compelling.
> damn fine, stable, and advanced OS that competes with anything else
> out there.
>
> Windows ME and Whislter are not far behind and bring even more
> innovations and advancements.
>
>- Office Suite Software. The Office productivity market was floundering
> with old-fashioned poorly featured word processors and anemic spreadsheets
> until MS arrived. Lotus, Corel, as well as other less-known suites like
No it wasn't. The other office products were doing just fine. In
certain respects, MS never caught up to some of them (like ~93
AmiPro).
> ApplixWare and StarOffice have become better products because of some of
> the trends that MS has started. People compute in a whole different way
No they haven't. They've actually gotten worse from trying to
emulate Microsoft practices.
> because of the Office suites that MS has put out. People now do many tasks
> as opposed to just simply word processing with blue-screen WordPerfect.
...all started by the respective applications vendors long before
Microsoft got the idea to dress them up with eye candy or to make
them one bloated singular mass.
>
>- Personal finance applications - With Microsoft providing stiff competition,
> Inuit has been pouring more and more resources into Quicken, making it a
> great and very complete product. They now include many features as well as
> allow people bank online, which is a very new innovation in the banking
> industry.
Quicken was doing this even before Microsoft tried to 'cut off
it's air supply'. This is why Microsoft never got anywhere. M$
was never able to catch up.
>
>Shall I go on?
You've not really given any reasons that would relate to an actualy
end user. You've just spouted more marketing oriented generalizations.
[deletia]
--
It is not the advocates of free love and software
that are the communists here , but rather those that |||
advocate or perpetuate the necessity of only using / | \
one option among many, like in some regime where
product choice is a thing only seen in museums.
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RH linux stable??
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:16:51 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) wrote:
> If an end user can't be bothered to explore a little bit, WinDoS
> will suit them no better and they really should consider getting
> an iOpener or somesuch.
>
> [deletia]
>
> This is especially true when contemplating a microcomputer
market
> hegemony built on the utility of 'it runs everything'. Of what
> value is that if you don't have access to genuine choices or
aren't
> willing to explore them?
>
> If you "can't be bothered" on an AltOS, it follows you "can't be
> bothered" on the 'market leader' platform either. So, either
such
> a use is a hypocrite or WinDOS isn't suitable for them either.
There is a difference between exploring software for functionality, and
searching for something that works among a miryad of beta-quality
apps. This kind of "exploration" is simply a waste of time. I do not
wish to be a beta tester for any OS.
I guess the simple thing RedHat could have done to make my life easier
is label the beta stuff as such, and exclude it from the default
packages. But instead, they ended up folowing Microsoft's example by
pushing beta-quality stuff into release.
Regards,
Mark.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RH linux stable??
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:17:00 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) wrote:
> If an end user can't be bothered to explore a little bit, WinDoS
> will suit them no better and they really should consider getting
> an iOpener or somesuch.
>
> [deletia]
>
> This is especially true when contemplating a microcomputer
market
> hegemony built on the utility of 'it runs everything'. Of what
> value is that if you don't have access to genuine choices or
aren't
> willing to explore them?
>
> If you "can't be bothered" on an AltOS, it follows you "can't be
> bothered" on the 'market leader' platform either. So, either
such
> a use is a hypocrite or WinDOS isn't suitable for them either.
There is a difference between exploring software for functionality, and
searching for something that works among a miryad of beta-quality
apps. This kind of "exploration" is simply a waste of time. I do not
wish to be a beta tester for any OS.
I guess the simple thing RedHat could have done to make my life easier
is label the beta stuff as such, and exclude it from the default
packages. But instead, they ended up folowing Microsoft's example by
pushing beta-quality stuff into release.
Regards,
Mark.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:33:50 +0200
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:8e1q5m$n8l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > If, like me, you are concerned about the fact Microsoft has frozen
> > progress in every software industry segment they have entered, here's
> > good news:
>
> Hey, look at that, petilon spreading FUD, what a shock!
>
> Frozen each segment? Let's review, shall we?
>
> - OS software is more advanced, more usefriendly, and more stable now
> than ever. Apple is soon to release a finally-stable version of the
> MacOS. Linux is out and popular, BSD is gaining ground steadily, and
> Windows2000 is the best Windows MS has every come up with, and is a
> damn fine, stable, and advanced OS that competes with anything else
> out there.
Nothing to do with Micros~1... Ever heard of evolution?
> Windows ME and Whislter are not far behind and bring even more
> innovations and advancements.
ME is the child of 95 and 98 and these are "shitty" - a fact that not even
denyes. I want to know why i will tell you from my perspective.
Whistler i dont know anything about.
> - Office Suite Software. The Office productivity market was floundering
> with old-fashioned poorly featured word processors and anemic spreadsheets
> until MS arrived. Lotus, Corel, as well as other less-known suites like
> ApplixWare and StarOffice have become better products because of some of
> the trends that MS has started. People compute in a whole different way
> because of the Office suites that MS has put out. People now do many tasks
> as opposed to just simply word processing with blue-screen WordPerfect.
You wouldnt write that after loosing 250 pages of work because Word 6.0
couldnt handle a few pictures in a long document.. I did that and so did
countless other fools. You wouldnt write that after
trying to write a faitly complex ressource administration application
Acces and its Basic... I did that...
No thanks no Office suites for me and certainly no ones from Micros¨1
> - Personal finance applications - With Microsoft providing stiff competition,
> Inuit has been pouring more and more resources into Quicken, making it a
> great and very complete product. They now include many features as well as
> allow people bank online, which is a very new innovation in the banking
> industry.
Dont know Quicken.. but what can it do that a professional accounting
system cant do?
> Shall I go on?
Or i will.
- reboots after program installs.
- reboots after changinv network settings (settings in general)
- BSOD in huge numbers - normally several a day..NT is better 1 to 3
times/week
- huge memory and disc consumption requiring "bigger and bigger"
computers
- reinstalls after a few months of extensive use because the
registry gets incontinent
- etc etc etc.
Did they do something good? Yes they did, with IBM and Intel, bring cheap
computers to the masses.
Imagine Apple on the same position has Micros¨1 today.... not a
nice thought
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where is PostScript support??
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:41:06 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It's nice to see a number of presentation/wordprocessing programs emerging for
> Linux - geeks do need to write documents as well, not just MSWord drones.
>
> There's just one thing that's really bugging me - none of them (AFAIK) seem to
> support postscript properly. Oh, they'll all allow an EPS file to be imported,
> and show a big blank square until it's sent to the printer; but this is barely
> adequate at best, and if one has a lot of inline graphics, pretty much useless.
>
> I've looked at demo versions of WordPerfect for Linux, StarOffice (not bad but
> a complete resource pig) and just now downloaded Adobe FrameMaker - and WTF -
> it doesn't display EPS files either. Now correct me if I'm mistaken here, but
> if any product should handle postscript properly, it should be something from
> Adobe...
>
> Does anybody know of any decent wordprocessor/desktop publishing application
> that can actually provide useful vector graphics filter/display capabilities?
www.lyx.org.. This is not your "average wordprocessor" but maybe this is
really what you need and is very very stable. Books and articles can be
made with it, so its not intended for the office.
BTW kill that signature... its length is irritating, it should only have
four lines
------------------------------
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