Linux-Advocacy Digest #412, Volume #27 Sat, 1 Jul 00 13:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Ready for Linux ? The "Furniture Scale" (Cihl)
Re: C# is a copy of java (mlw)
Re: If Linux is desktop ready ... (John Culleton)
Re: Trying Linux yet again.... (Ray Chason)
Re: Corel Does Nothing To Help The Linux Cause (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Ray Chason)
Re: Trying Linux yet again.... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux, easy to use? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: I'm Ready! I'm ready! I'm not ready. (Re: The "Furniture Scale") (OSguy)
Re: Lost Cause Theater!!! (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Uptime 6 months and counting. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: What UNIX is good for. (abraxas)
Re: Mac OS X gonna have a CLI! (abraxas)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (abraxas)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (abraxas)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... (abraxas)
Re: Trying Linux yet again.... (abraxas)
Linux not ready for primetime!!! ! ("leg log")
Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this! (abraxas)
Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy (Pim van Riezen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ready for Linux ? The "Furniture Scale"
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:21:40 GMT
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Think of how you would drive, if your shifting hand had VERY painful
> cuts all over your palm and fingers...
Are you threatening me? :-)
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C# is a copy of java
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:34:45 -0400
Aravind Sadagopan wrote:
>
> I happened to read the C# specs and boy how do these people manage to
> copy so well. Ill give you
> an example
>
> java - import java.lang.System;
> C# - using System
>
> java - out.println("hello World");
> C# - console.Writeln("hello World");
>
> Same no pointer ,garbage collection, virtual machine stuff is there. And
> they have a backward compatiblity to use C pointers called "unsafe"
> methods. I don't know what they meant when they siad C# is not meant to
> be a competition to Java
>
> Aravind
Anyone who would program in yet another closed language is stupid.
Especially when it is a Microsoft-only Windows-only system which
provides no real value.
Besides, is there life without pointers?
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 9x, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
Nepotism proves the foolishness of at least two people.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: If Linux is desktop ready ...
From: John Culleton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 05:49:01 -0700
Linux is ready for the desktop. Not all desktop users will
want/need/put up with Linux. To each his/her/its own.
It is a mistake to posit Linux as either a MSWin clone or its
universal replacement. Its a different kind of thing that appeals
to a different kind of folks. (It is also a superior server
platform for those with the sense to use it.) It does require
more fiddling and fussing than a preinstalled version of MSWin
for the appliance operators. One can chose one's own level of
involvement with the innards of Linux but some minimum
involvement is necessary. So sing me no sad songs about "I had to
fuss with such and such to get Linux to work." Of course you did.
Who said there was no work involved? Not me. It's a free
operating system that can be chosen/not chosen freely. Enjoy.
John Culleton
===========================================================
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Trying Linux yet again....
Date: 1 Jul 2000 13:43:07 GMT
Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:06:08 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>
>>>It looks like the USB support in Mandrake 7.0 is not the same as what
>>>is in 7.1 The older versoin must have supported my motherboard's USB
>>>controller and the newer one doesn't.
>>
>> ...there just aren't that many variants of inboard USB
>> controllers...
>
>I'm not sure why it isn't working since it did work fine. From what I
>was told, the support in 7.0 was based on a patch whereas the support
>in 7.1 is kernel based. I would assume this means they're different
>code.
>
>Either way, USB = not working.
Do you know what type of USB controller you have? Perhaps you can run this
command:
grep -i usb /var/log/messages | tail -n 30
and post the results here, and maybe someone here will know what's going
on.
You may need to be root to run this, depending on how the permissions to
/var/log/messages are set. There's nothing in this command that's unsafe
to run as root.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Corel Does Nothing To Help The Linux Cause
Date: 1 Jul 2000 14:51:22 GMT
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:05:07 -0400, Colin R. Day wrote:
>I'm not sure that there would be enough demand for such products
>(as opposed to games) in Linux to justify a port.
FYI, a game that sells about 200,000 copies is reasonably succesful.
The Linux games will be getting somewhat less sales than that.
IOW, you won't need enormous sales numbers for a port to be
economically viable.
>At present, no. But what about the long term?
I've watched wine for a long time and I'm just not convinced that it's
ever, ever going to provide complete binary compatibility. It's having
a hard enough time just getting source compatibility right.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: 1 Jul 2000 14:08:51 GMT
Nic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Pete Goodwin wrote:
>>
>> All X applications disappear. A message appears briefly that looks like
>> the cookie again, but I couldn't tell.
>
>In case anyone wants to reproduce this, the URL is
>http://www.dumpthepump.co.uk/ - running on NT and using the
>"windows-1252" character set.
>
>On my machine, the only thing that died was kfm, because I only use some
>KDE apps, not the whole shebang. Having everything die can be the price
>you pay for an "integrated" desktop. Blech.
>
>Not sure whether to bother reporting this to the KDE folks or not, as if
>memory serves me correctly, it's been totally rewritten anyway, so may
>not have the bug.
>
>Regards,
> Nic.
>
>KCharset: Wrong charset!
>Charset windows-1252 not available
>Rejecting cookie from http://www.dumpthepump.co.uk/
>Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
>0x40638c15 in free () from /lib/libc.so.6
>(gdb)
I tried this in kfm and it displayed the page incorrectly: the main frame
came up blank. The side bar displayed but was cropped on the right, and
there was no scroll bar. CTRL-ALT-F1 revealed the "Charset windows-1252 not
available" error.
I then right-clicked on the blank frame and chose "New View", and was able
to see the frame. I did the same on the side bar, and it came up too.
Perhaps the problem is broken frame support?
Afterwards, the KDE task bar wouldn't launch any new applications.
CTRL-ALT-F1 showed "QSocketNotifier: Invalid socket specified". Evidently
the Unix-domain socket that X uses died.
The frame is http://www.trojan.co.uk/trojan/dump/index1.html . The side bar
is http://www.trojan.co.uk/trojan/dump/bar.html .
Netscape Navigator displayed the page without problems.
Version information: I'm running Slackware 7, living dangerously with
kernel 2.4.0-test2 and XFree86 4.0. kfm's About box reports version
1.167.2.21.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Trying Linux yet again....
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:54:31 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:06:08 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
wrote:
> >
> >>>It looks like the USB support in Mandrake 7.0 is not the same as
what
> >>>is in 7.1 The older versoin must have supported my motherboard's
USB
> >>>controller and the newer one doesn't.
> >>
> >> ...there just aren't that many variants of inboard USB
> >> controllers...
> >
> >I'm not sure why it isn't working since it did work fine. From what I
> >was told, the support in 7.0 was based on a patch whereas the support
> >in 7.1 is kernel based. I would assume this means they're different
> >code.
> >
> >Either way, USB = not working.
>
> Do you know what type of USB controller you have? Perhaps you can run
this
> command:
>
> grep -i usb /var/log/messages | tail -n 30
>
> and post the results here, and maybe someone here will know what's
going
> on.
>
> You may need to be root to run this, depending on how the permissions
to
> /var/log/messages are set. There's nothing in this command that's
unsafe
> to run as root.
>
> --
As far as I know, Jeff has never really been intersted in getting Linux
to run properly. He is more interested in getting it to fail so he can
whine here. That's my own personal oppinion.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Linux, easy to use?
Date: 1 Jul 2000 15:03:04 GMT
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:04:14 GMT, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>>XV is more or less obsolete as a GUI app. I haven't tried XMovie.
>
>It gets installed as part of Mandrake 7.1
Yes, as does practically every other application under the sun. But
that doesn't mean that you have to use it. I used it directly from
the command line to set desktop backgrounds and that's about it.
>MOTIF based, it doesn't look it. When you open a file, it shows a text
>style prompt. The menus hook into Emacs commands. The whole style of the
>thing is still text based.
X emcas is motif based. Are you sure you're not thinking of Emacs ? ( which
also has an X version. ) Emacs is athena based, which means that it
still follows the usual copy/paste rules.
>>Actually, the other toolkits are rapidly heading towards obsolescence.
>
>Then why are they still being installed on Mandrake 7.1? Nostalgia?
Yeah, I'd say that's not far from the truth. The real reason is "backward
compatibility".
The fact that xv is installed
doesn't mean that you have to use it. Just like you don't have to use
the obsolete twm even though it's installed.
If having cut and paste is a priority for you, prefer GNOME/KDE apps to
other apps. Otherwise use Motif, Tk or athena apps. Stay away from
idiosyncratic toolkits ( like the one XV uses )
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: OSguy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm Ready! I'm ready! I'm not ready. (Re: The "Furniture Scale")
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:43:43 -0500
John Culleton wrote:
> Well, first you make two additional partitions, one for Linux and
> one for Linux swap. Do this in Windoze.
If you use Suse, Debian, Redhat, or Mandrake, you only need to make one
partition for linux, then the distro's tools well make your Linux native
and swap partitions for you (which you can specify exactly how you want)
within that partition. I'd highly recommend letting the Linux partition
tools set up your Linux partitions during the install phase.
My attempts at using MSDOS fdisk for the Linux partitions (other than
setting aside that one partition prior to installing Linux) have been
disastrous. I can't say I've found MSDOS fdisk useful for much of
anything outside of FAT partitions ... MSDOS fdisk will refuse to remove
partitions that it can't identify.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Lost Cause Theater!!!
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:34:41 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Black Dragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote on Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:17:26 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>On 29 Jun 2000 19:32:40 -0500, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> `Tim Palmer' said:
>
>[...]
>
>>Whare's your Commy IWW sig, CommyLie-nux Commy? The troth is
>>that you are a hippy, commy dork working to overthrou capitleism
>>with your crappy CommyLie-nux.
>>
>>You'l do anytthing to make everyone put up with yoor crappy 1960's
>>Commy Line Interface tiping commands all day.
>>
>>DOS is ded, and UNIX should go with it.
>
>
>Gee, when I grow up, I want to be just like Tim Palmer!
>
>
>From Win9x MsDos command prompt:
>
>c:
>cd \
>attrib -h -r -s msdos.sys
>edit msdos.sys : change string "BootGUI=1" to "BootGUI=0" : save & exit
>re-boot
>
>MSDOS is not DEAD.
Indeed. But what are 'BootMulti=' and 'DoubleBuffer=' for?
('Network=' looks fairly obvious.)
And what 'other programs' are there that require MSDOS.SYS
to be >1024 bytes?
The answers lie ahead in our next *exciting* episode.... :-)
>
>--
>Black Dragon
>
>"Windows for Dummies", Hell No!
>"Windows for Pathetic, Clueless, Illiterate Drooling Morons", Maybe.
*grin*
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Windows. What one uses when one has no choice.
Now *that's* communism.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Uptime 6 months and counting.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:38:37 GMT
Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> The power around here just isn't good enough for things to run without
>> interruption for a long time (I am waiting for the next 2 second power
>> outage any day now --- the Alpha has an uptime of 39 days ;-), but
>> apart from that... It's not like the older kernels don't work.
>Battery backup systems are your friends.
Unfortunately, they are rather pricy friends when you are dealing with 10
or so machines --- and while the mass-reboot every month or two is
inconvenient, it still doesn't waste *that* many CPU cycles that buying
a new machine instead of the UPS wouldn't result in a net benefit.
I am the only one using any of these machines (well, except for the
occasional intrusion attempt ;-), so as soon as a user gets inconvenienced,
the administrator is there and can rectify the situation ;-)
Bernie
--
One more such victory and we are lost
Pyrrhus
King of Epirus from 306 BC
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: What UNIX is good for.
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:42:26 GMT
In comp.unix.advocacy Tim Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2000 03:14:07 GMT, abraxas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You can try Photoshop if you doanm't. You'll never look bak.
>>>
>>
>>I actually went to gimp FROM photoshop, and ive never looked back.
>
> Me too. I can't stand the photoshop/photo-paint style interface, I
> like the way gimp puts every applet in a different window. I also
> just like the way gimp works.
>
I like the way that the gimp mirrors every photoshop appliance and more,
while at the same time using *far* less ram, CPU and drivespace.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X gonna have a CLI!
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:52:25 GMT
mmnnoo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Woofbert wrote:
> <snip>
>>This is, in
>> essence, what the Mac is supposed to be about: letting people work in
>> their own most comfortable style, instead of imposing some arbitrary
>> style on them.
> <snip>
>
> Yes, that is what the Mac is 'supposed' to be about, according
> to the commercials. Somehow they've given a rebel, freestyle image to
> the most stringently controlled, proprietary platform on the block.
> Apple dictates everything about the Macintonsh, but then they put it
> into a cool looking case and suddenly it's a wild and crazy computing
> platform.
>
Resedit. There is no windows equivalent. Not that id expect you to
know too much about how MacOS actually *works*. :)
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:55:43 GMT
Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2000 18:44:10 GMT, Brian Langenberger
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I went out and bought a nice Logitech PS2/USB one, plugged it in,
>>adjusted a couple of config files and had no trouble since.
>
> No... There is where you are wrong. You're not susposed to edit any
> config files. As far as I'm concerned, Linux does not support wheel
> mice unless they just work.
>
Linux!=windows.
> Windows has been doing this for many years now.
You need to stick with that which you understand, and give up on that
which you do not.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:56:50 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Black Dragon) wrote in
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>>No... There is where you are wrong. You're not susposed to edit any
>>>config files.
>>
>>Whatsamatta'? To stupid to figure out how to edit a few simple ascii text
>>files? That's basically what you are saying.
>
> Judging by the number of people complaining about this in
> alt.os.linux.mandrake, it's hardly a few simple ascii text files.
>
Judging by the number of idiots into which I run every single day of my life,
it is indeed a matter of a few simple ascii text files; as well as a matter
of general public stupidity.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:57:58 GMT
Colin R. Day <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Szarka wrote:
>
>> On 30 Jun 2000 18:44:10 GMT, Brian Langenberger
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >I went out and bought a nice Logitech PS2/USB one, plugged it in,
>> >adjusted a couple of config files and had no trouble since.
>>
>> No... There is where you are wrong. You're not susposed to edit any
>> config files. As far as I'm concerned, Linux does not support wheel
>> mice unless they just work.
>>
>> Windows has been doing this for many years now.
>
> But wait! What if I don't want to inatall drivers? I could get
> my HP Laserjet 6P to work in Linux without my installing the
> drivers (they were already included). In Windows, however,
> I had to install the drivers myself. Insert the CD and floppy,
> find the driver files (Windows didn't find them automatically),
> install. What a pain! Give me an easy OS like Linux!
>
Indeed. When I plug in a mouse or a scanner or a SCSI device or
ANYTHING AT ALL, I want it to just work. Windows cannot do this, but
Macs have been doing it for years. :)
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Trying Linux yet again....
Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:58:27 GMT
Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When are you going to learn, jeff?
You're too stupid for linux. Give it up.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: "leg log" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Linux not ready for primetime!!! !
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:02:19 -0500
I Installed Mandrake Linux 7.1 two days ago. Thank God for dule-booting. I
like tinkering around sort of like a hobby, but can not imagine being stuck
with linux as my only OS.
Too many things to do just to use the computer productively. How to simply
install software? Where did the software go? What icon? How to put icon on
KDE desktop? How to put icon on K menu? Not enough disk space to install?
I've got 18 Gigs! Star Office will be installed without Java support? Its
year 2000, I just installed this OS and it did not include Java? Can't print
to my USB printers? Have to install the same program for every user?
The industrial strength is there, but the human interface is too weak. Its
lost. Most people don't care about the computer or OS. Most people care
about the products of computing. We want to go, oh great StarOffice! Ten
minutes later, bam!! Making a slide presentation, or understanding
investments by reading a spreadsheet. Printing a continuous tone color
photograph on the printer that was purchased for no other reason than
photo-quality.
At this point all of these things seem "possible" with linux. But, the
challenge will drive most reasonable adults to wonder why bother, why not
"simply" use a different computer? I think they will think computer, not OS.
Hard computer Vs easy computer, lets see, Hmm. I'll go with the easy one, I
just want to get something done.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this!
Date: 1 Jul 2000 17:03:05 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I shut down my Linux server, fine, no problems.
>
> I shut down my Linux workstation and it hung in Postfix... I tried logging
> in as root, but all the virtual terminals wouldn't let me even type 'root'.
>
How *exactly* did you shut it down? There are 'nice' ways, and there are
'mean' ways.
> So, reboot.
>
This is never nessesary. Pop into console when this happens, or if youve
lost keyboard functionality (exceedingly rare), telnet or ssh in from
somewhere else.
> Now this is the second time Linux has fallen apart on shutdown. The first
> was a kernel oops when it tried to dismount an smbfs mounted drive. Now it
> hung in shutting down Postfix.
>
Indeed. I remember you; youre the one who doesnt understand that you cannot
simply unmount an active filesystem.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: Pim van Riezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:28:08 +0200
> Millions of people find that feature usefal.
Others would be greatly helped by a usenet client with an embedded
spellchecker that also made it easy to show more quoting intelligence than
a WebTV user on a large dose of methadon.
> More than Lie-nux will ever acheive.
*ploink*
Pi
------------------------------
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