Linux-Advocacy Digest #454, Volume #27 Tue, 4 Jul 00 14:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this! (Bob Hauck)
Re: Ready for Linux ? The "Furniture Scale" (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: LIE-nux is SUPPOST to destroy data (was: Re: This is a Troll, do (Gary
Hallock)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: A hot one (Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box?) ("Gonzo")
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Cihl)
Re: I hope you trolls are happy... ("Rich C")
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Cihl)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users?
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:28:51 GMT
But how many people are actually USING Linux?
I have some 15 different distributions/versions on my shelf and use
none of them.
Trying Linux and sticking with Linux are two completely different
things.
simon
On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:11:29 GMT, Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>"R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" wrote:
>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:28:28 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> (JEDIDIAH)
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:46:23 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >>They don't have to...
>> > >>
>> > >>Win2k, even WITHOUT advocating STILL has a far higher market share
>> > >>than Linsux....
>> > >
>> > > ...an interesting assertion considering that Microsoft
>> > > itself is discouraging it's use as a general purpose
>> > > desktop OS.
>> >
>> > Whatever. The fact remains that it still has far more marekt share
>> > than Linsux...
>>
>> Check the scoreboard. Microsoft just announced that they have
>> sold or given away 3 million copies of Windows 2000 including upgrades.
>>
>> In the past 12 months.
>> Red Hat sold 3 million copies,
>
>No boys and girls,,, this is 3.
>
>
>
>>
>> SuSE sold about 4 million (much of it in Europe).
>
>Now it is 3 + 4 = 7
>
>
>>
>> Caldera is a bit behind at 1 million.
>
>Now it is 7 + 1 = 8
>
>
>>
>> Mandrake sold about 4 million copies (primarily U.S.)
>
>Now it is 8 + 4 = 12
>
>
>>
>> Corel sold about 2 million copies.
>
>Now it is 12 + 2 = 14
>
>
>>
>> Turbo Linux sold about 4 million copies (mostly Asia).
>
>Now it is 14 + 4 = 18
>
>
>>
>> Debian sold about 1/2 million copies.
>
>Now it is .5 + 18 = 18.5 + Rex's missing downloads rounding to at least
>19.
>
>Thanks Rex....
>
>
>
>
>>
>> FreeBSD sold about 1 million copies.
>
>Non Linux but okay.
>
>
>
>>
>> and OpenBSD sold about 1 million copies.
>
>Ditto.
>
>
>>
>> (though FreeBSD and OpenBSD aren't actually "Linux", they share
>> the same software application and library base).
>>
>> This puts Linux at nearly 20 million copies.
>
>And this is a god damn conservative figure Rex.
>What about the other 75 some odd linux distributions.
>Then we have to factor in the old kodgers who UPGRADE
>only when the blue fin turle mates on the north pole....
>
>There are still masses of individuals who are still runing the first
>version of
>slackware.
>
>Let me give you another GOOD one which isn't even included in these
>simple statistics.
>
>Compaq, Dell, Gateway, and others sell machines direct.
>Their installs are not included in these figures.
>
>Between all of them we have 49,000,000 servers sold in 1999.
>On 50 % of their servers you found Linux installed.
>
>And of the desktops Linux still sold around 4-5 million with
>the big computer manufacturers.
>
>So if we took 24 million and added them to the 20 million above,
>all we have left are the millions of downloads they don't even
>account for.
>
>Rex,
>Just about everybody in my club downloads new versions of Linux.
>People will buy maybe 3 -4 copies of Linux and then not buy anymore
>for 2-3 years. They just download.
>
>
>So we have 44 million sold, and an X number of downloads.
>
>I will say the X is 25 million easy.
>
>
>>
>> This is based on a combination of official sales figures
>> reported by public companies, and market share claimed
>> competitors.
>>
>> The figures may be slightly out of date, and are based on
>> "hype".
>>
>> --
>> Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
>> I/T Architect, MIS Director
>> http://www.open4success.com
>> Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
>
>This figure is simply too low Rex.
>There is NO-WAY you will ever convince me that
>there is only 90 million Linux users.
>
>If we have already figured 65 million people accessing NEW
>software in 1999, then how can we justify the 90 million.
>
>It's a well known statistic that many Linux users are on older
>machines and do not want to upgrade....
>
>And there are a pile of older machines out there.
>
>Conservatively speaking Rex, I will ball park the Linux
>encampment at 150,000,000 users easy.
>
>
>>
>> and growing at over 5%/month!
>>
>
>Even you agree. At 5% a year you can't stay at the same old 90,000,000
>user
>statistics forever.
>
>You have run this for I'm guessing 2 years now Rex.
>
>
>Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this!
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:35:03 GMT
On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:34:17 GMT, Pete Goodwin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You misunderstand me. I meant "I do not use EMail on Linux".
Disable postfix then. Problem solved.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.bobh.org/
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ready for Linux ? The "Furniture Scale"
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:31:47 GMT
In article <8jqgc3$j97$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"bmeson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >
> > I would still reccomend Mandrake 7.0, SuSE, or Caldera. Red Hat
> > is nice, but not as "desktop-friendly", it is more "administrator
> > friendly".
> >
>
> One and half years ago I had a lot of
> trouble reading a big SuSE install manual.
Many things change in 18 months-2 years. For one, SuSE has established
an American subsidiary which has improved the English documentation.
SuSE also has outstanding documentation in German, French, Italian,
Spanish, and Russian. I think they also have pretty good documentation
in Polish. They also list Arabic, Hebrew, Japanese, and Chinese, but
I'm not sure how good that documentation (TurboLinux generally has a
better reputation in that area).
> Later I tried Red Hat, which seems
> a lot more simpler to install.
This would have been around Red Hat 4.2 - which at that time
was probably one of the easier versions to install. Seriously
doubt you thought Red Hat 5.0 was easy to install (probably the
worst version of Red Hat available).
Note that 18 months ago, the "Desktop Initiative" was only
6 months old. KDE was still in "alpha" and GNOME was still in
"beta". KDE also wanted a $6000 lump sum payment from each
developer who worked professionally.
Since that time, KDE has resolved most of the royalty and licensing
issues, GNOME and KDE are both in production versions, and both
are integrated into several Linux Distributions.
> I have no experience on Mandrake and Caldera.
If you are satisfied with Red Hat, enjoy. But if you're wishing
for a more user friendly version with less need for shell commands,
Mandrake, Caldera, and SuSE.
> Can you explain the diffenence
> between "desktop-friendly" and
> "administrator friendly"?
Red Hat set a goal of making Linux "Administrator Friendly". That is,
they wanted to make the software relatively easy to install, uninstall,
upgrade, and configure. Also, they wanted to make it simple to monitor
resources and configure multiple network interfaces.
Mandrake is actually based on Red Hat, but it was designed to support
the needs of a retail customer. They added new features to the
desktop bar (the one at the bottom), including desktop selection
(Red Hat has this too, but Mandrake puts different backgrounds on
each screen making it easier to know which desktop you are using.
Mandrake also includes a number of desktop themes that include a
MacIntosh look and feel, and several really glitzy displays. Depending
on your color settings, display processing speed, and memory, you can
have some pretty spectacular looking displays. If you just want fast
and ugly, that's available too.
"Desktop User Friendly" systems tend to include direct access to things
like notepads, postits, word processors, speadsheets, calculators, draw,
paint, and photography editors, and web/file browsers. KDE has a
file explorer that doubles as a web browser, but doesn't support some
of the goodies like Java, JavaScript, and VBScript. It's actually
the safest way to browse the web. If you hit a page that can't be
viewed with this browser, the page was a security hole anyway.
There are also start menu options that include numerous applications,
and very easy to use dialer, Internet configuration, and Hardware
configuration information.
Finally, most of the desktop oriented systems include a vast collection
of commercial software available on a "try before you buy" basis.
Typically, most of these applications come in minimal configuration,
and offer the ability to get updates and support for a modest fee
(ranging from $40 to $200 per application). This is real shareware
published by commercial vendors, not GPL software. Some of the vendors
are names you might recognised, including IBM, Sybase, Oracle, Informix,
Corel, Sun Microsystems, Borland/Inprise, VMWare, and numerous other
vendors - especially vendors who were driven out of the Microsoft
market by exclusive contracts, bundleware, and hostile anticompetitive
behavior.
The other important feature of "Desktop Friendly" systems is that they
include programs like Partition Magic and the ability to start Linux
from Windows. In some cases, they will actually let you start Linux
and access peripherals such as winmodems that were initialized under
Windows and can be invoked from Linux.
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:54:58 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LIE-nux is SUPPOST to destroy data (was: Re: This is a Troll, do
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gary Hallock) wrote in <39614891.D83DA430
> @attglobal.net>:
>
> >Actually many of his so called problems are not problems except for the
> >special Pete Goodwin version of Linux.
>
> It's called Linux Mandrake 7.1. It's not my version. You lie.
You are the only one that has hit these problems and they have not been able
to be reproduced by anyone.
>
>
> > He has complained about cut and
> >paste not working when no one else has the problem.
>
> Again you lie - I've complained about the style of cut and paste.
You are the one that is lying:
http://x52.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=629350641&CONTEXT=962728585.1732509736&hitnum=10
"Cut, copy and paste do not exist on the KDE terminals."
This is a lie.
http://x69.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=638142668&search=thread&CONTEXT=962729787.609353799&HIT_CONTEXT=962729787.609353799&HIT_NUM=2&hitnum=54
"For instance, you have two kfm processes running. You want to copy the text
from one t'other. CTRl-C CTRL-V is
a standard key sequence (no, it wasn't created by Windows!) and kfm doesn't
recognise it. Even clicking on the
buttons doesn't work!"
This is a lie.
>
>
> > He has the only copy
> >of Gimp that has no print menu. He has claimed that you can't drag and
> >drop from kfm to a desktop icon.
>
> You lie again.
http://x59.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=631353150&search=thread&CONTEXT=962730487.171049046&HIT_CONTEXT=962730487.171049046&HIT_NUM=3&hitnum=62
"Linux KDE doesn't even have drag to application,
sheesh!"
This is a lie.
http://x59.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=631420950&search=thread&CONTEXT=962730487.171049046&HIT_CONTEXT=962730487.171049046&HIT_NUM=3&hitnum=64
"Really. Still have your hands over your ears I see.
Drag a file from kfm, drag it to Netscape.
What happens?
Nothing."
This is a lie.
>
>
> > And he has some special KDE explorer
> >that can't drag and drop to kfm, but he refuses to say what this "KDE
> >explorer" is.
>
> Again you lie! It's called Kruiser. It took me a while to realise what it
> was. On the KDE menu its called "KDE Windows Explorer".
I specifically asked you what you meant by KDE Explorer. You never
responded. I can't believe you couldn't figure out what the program is
called. I just downloaded a copy to check it out. Click on Help. The
menu that pops up has three choices - Contents, About kruiser, About KDE.
That might give you a clue. Click on Contents. Up pops "The Kruiser
Handbook". Go back to Help->About kruiser. It says version 0.4. By
convention, fractional releases are beta. That should give you a clue that it
might not be meant for general consumption.
>
>
> > And his latest claim is not directly Linux related. He
> >claims AIX JFS can't handle a power loss without loss of files.
>
> Again more lies! I never said AIX JFS can't handle power loss - I was
> talking about UNIX filesystems. Like ext2fs!
>
What? What do you think JFS is? You said UNIX filesystems and JFS IS a
UNIX fliesystem. Or are you now claiming that Linux is UNIX but AIX is not
UNIX?
>
> > I
> >started out thinking this guy just had some bad luck with Linux and
> >needed some help but he is obviously looking for problems where they
> >don't exist and when he can't find any he makes them up.
>
> LIAR!!!! None of the problems I've come across are fake.
No, you are the only one that sees them!
>
>
> > He's started
> >to get as bad as Tim Palmer.
>
> I see Linux Advocates are so desperate to keep the wolves at bay, they make
> things up to their satisfaction!
>
>
> Pete
It seems to me that you are the one getting desparate
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: 4 Jul 2000 18:04:10 GMT
On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:12:21 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> you're effectively saying that GUIs are "unsupported" in Linux.
>
>There is a big difference between saying "xwindows is linux" and
>"xwindows is unsupported"
Whatever. The fact remains that you are attempting to dismiss the
fact that Linux lags in user interfaces, simply by disowning all of
them.
GNOME isn't Linux, KDE isn't Linux, and twm isn't Linux, etc etc. But
this fact does not help the desktop user who has to shop around for
ages trying to find something that works, while different groups of
Lionux users debate who is to blame for the fact that the user
in question cannot find anything that works.
One of the problems with this decentralised model is that users expect
a GUI, they want a complete package which includes an OS and a user
interface. It doesn't matter one bit to them if one part of the package
( the kernel ) is great if another part is unusable.
>> of the kernel. It seems to be the user interface that he's not happy
>> with (-;
>
>My point exactly! With Linux (the kernel) you can use any number of user
>interfaces! KDE is not the only interface available!
Yes, but the other user interfaces are not substantially better than KDE.
Personally, I switched to KDE because fvwm and friends had a nasty habit
of openining windows in a way such that the title bar was hanging off
the screen.
>KDE is in NO WAY ESSENTIAL to Linux! Xwindows is not even ESSENTIAL!!!
>Most of my comuters do not even have X installed!!!!!!!
Don't be an ass. We're talking about desktop usage, so X is essential.
The fact that you can run a server fine without X is not relevant to
thios discussion.
>How? Prove that KDE is ESSENTIAL!!!!
End users expect a GUI. The end user needs some kind of user interface.
Unless you can suggest one that's clearly superior to KDE ( hint: you
can't ), then we've established that for the end user, KDE or something
no better than KDE is essential.
>The ne would be wrong in his claim that there was no error!
You're splitting hairs. Error messages aren't much help if they're hidden
away somewhere obscure, are they ?
>But he claimed there was NO ERROR! I was calling him on his claim!
So you've scored a cheap point, but it doesn't really do much
to substantiate your argument.
>I have been on him about his wild claims. The fact that in *ONE*
>situation an error message was not sent to the screen, hardly means that
>Linux is laging behind *ANYTHING*
That fact in isolation doesn't mean that, no.
>> I think you need to take the context into account. He's said a zillion
>> or so times that it lags on the desktop.
>
>One errormessage not sent to a screan and that means it lags behind???
>I've had w2k crash (requireing a reboot) without error messages being
>sent to the screen!
I think he's offered more arguments than just this. You are attacking a
straw man.
>BTW, I run KDE on Solaris, and guess what? it had the same problem on
>Solaris as on Linux. Since KDE running on Solaris has NOTHING to do with
>Linux, this bug has NOTHING to do with Linux.
The "bug" in Linux is that there are no desktop environments that are any
better.
The "bug" in your thinking is the misleading notion that Linux only needs
a good kernel design to prove itself. This mindset is plain wrong. Linux
needs to be available as a complete package, a "solution" if you like.
The kernel can get as good as it likes, but if there's no software
abailable, this doesn't really help.
It's all well to say "it's KDE's fault, not Linux's. Don't use KDE, use
GNOME". Then someone else says "Don't use GNOME, use KDE". THen someone
else says "They're bloated. Use twm". And about the only thing that there
is consensus on is that most of the desktop environments just
suck, and that it's "not Linux's fault". Well it's not Linux's fault, but
that doesn't alter the fact that it's pretty much dead as a platform for
home users if there's no supported user interface.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "Gonzo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: A hot one (Re: Hardware: ideal budget Linux box?)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 11:55:25 -0500
Joseph T. Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8jslon$8lr$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I would suggest doing what you can to cool that thing off, and also
> that you never run it unattended. Parts that run warmer than designed
> are at increased risk of failure, and a shorted power supply will very
> often burst into flames and/or release toxic fumes. I've never
> personally witnessed a computer fire but most of my coworkers have,
> and they assure me that it is no fun at all.
The K6 233 was designed to run hot so IMHO, any decent heatsink and fan
designed for a super7 CPU would be sufficient. A nice up-front internal
case fan would also be a good investment for any system.
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:06:50 GMT
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> =
> Oh boy...
> =
> Everyone is telling me how Linux(1) is more reliable than Windows. Well=
,
> here's one for you.
> =
> 1. Log onto the Internet with Kppp
> 2. Go to http://www.theregister.co.uk/ with kfm
> 3. Find the article on middle england and boycott the pumps
> 4. Find the link "dump the pump"
> 5. Reject the cookie
> 6. The new KDE window starts up but looks unfinished
> 7. Tell the new window to refresh
> =
> All X applications disappear. A message appears briefly that looks like=
> the cookie again, but I couldn't tell.
> =
> Nothing works from now on. Logout is the only option. Restart, do the
> above, it does it again.
> =
> Now, when an application dies on Windows 98 SE, it can take out the
> whole system. Linux is better in this respect in that you can Logout an=
d
> try again. However, I've yet to see an application crash take out
> Windows 2000 - it just carries on, just like Windows NT did.
> =
> (1) When I say Linux, I really mean "the Linux desktop". This is for
> those pedantic souls who took to calling me "moron" and "complete
> idiot".
Hey, Pete. Keep your shirt on, dude! We're working on it! (Uh, i mean
the KDE-team is working on it)
They didn't build Rome in one day either, you know. Have you seen KDE2
yet? Really much cooler than the old KDE, and much more
userintuifriendlytive, too. It's exactly 9 weeks away until release.
Get some screenshots at the kde.org and kde.com sites, if you're not
just a Wintroll, that is. ;-)
I think 'lagging behind' is not the right thing to say here. It
suggests that Linux will never catch up to Windows, but i'd say that's
not true at all, looking at the progress we've made in the past year.
Linux is *quickly* gaining on Windows, so i'd like to call it
'catching up to' instead.
I'm, after all, a Linux advocate. :-]
(Well sort of)
-- =
=A8I live!=A8
=A8I hunger!=A8
=A8Run, coward!=A8
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I hope you trolls are happy...
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:10:09 -0400
"Tim Palmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:38:01 -0400, Rich C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >"Jeff Szarka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> On 30 Jun 2000 18:44:10 GMT, Brian Langenberger
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I went out and bought a nice Logitech PS2/USB one, plugged it in,
> >> >adjusted a couple of config files and had no trouble since.
> >>
> >> No... There is where you are wrong. You're not susposed to edit any
> >> config files. As far as I'm concerned, Linux does not support wheel
> >> mice unless they just work.
> >
> >Oh, so my Logitech wheel mouse will "just work"? Even if I don't install
> >mouseware 8.x or whatever software came with the thing? _NOT_
> >
> >In windows, you install drivers and reboot, In UNIX and its derivatives,
you
> >edit text files. That's just the way it is.
>
> No in UNIX you recompial the cernal and all the app's and most of the
hardware doesn't work atall.
If I correctly interpreted your hieroglyphics, my response is as follows:
I haven't recompiled a kernel since RedHat 5.2 (the new modular kernels work
quite well.)
I don't recompile apps. I compile some of them, when binaries are not
available. But once they are compiled, there is no need to "re"- compile at
all.
All the hardware in _my_ linux systems work, including a rather obscure
Matrox Mystique 220.
>
> >>
> >> Windows has been doing this for many years now.
> >
> >UNIX has been doing its thing for many more.
>
> ...its thing = shfulling text
Among _many_ other things.
>
> >
> >-- Rich C.
> >"Because light travels faster than sound, many people appear to be
> >intelligent, until you hear them speak."
> >
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where did all my windows go?
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:08:28 GMT
> Pete,
> =
> I'm certainly not going to jump on you for reporting a bug; however,
> this is not the place to report it - send the report to the KDE folks
> where it can be fixed.
> =
> Codifex Maximus
He doesn't have to. KFM as a web browser has been completely replaced
by Konqueror. Konqueror is a much more mature web browser, and doesn't
have those kind of icky problems.
-- =
=A8I live!=A8
=A8I hunger!=A8
=A8Run, coward!=A8
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
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