Linux-Advocacy Digest #253, Volume #30 Wed, 15 Nov 00 17:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Of course, there is a down side... (Tim)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (The Ghost In The Machine)
More Linux good news! (sfcybear)
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? (Giuliano Colla)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Sam Morris")
Re: True GTK+ will eliminate Qt in next few years? (John Hasler)
Re: More Linux good news! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RE: More Linux good news! ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: The Sixth Sense (.)
Thursday 16 November 2000 UNIGROUP Meeting: Pat Villani on Compaq, Unix, and
GNU/Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: The Sixth Sense (.)
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? (.)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Sam Morris")
Re: Help!! ("Aleksandar V.")
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? ("CC Ghost")
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? (Michael Livshin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:52:33 -0600
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Really? How do you deny someone in an access group access to a single
> file that all others in that access group can access without creating an
> all new group to put everyone but that one person in?
>
> That's a pretty common real-world situation.
While I think ACL's are nice, linux is just fine without them. What the
people who depend on ACL's really need is document management, and I assume
that is why unix has never had them, because most people who need such
finely grained control use some sort of document management software.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:02:02 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Curtis
<alliem@kas*spam*net.com>
wrote
on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:52:22 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Les Mikesell wrote...
>> Simple things you do often enough to not want to read a book to find
>> but not often enough to memorize. What's the option to 'diff' to tell
>> it to ignore whitespace? Does the version of grep on this machine
>> use -R for recursion? Does this machine's 'tail' use the -r option
>> to display a file backwards or do you use the 'tac' command instead?
>
>Did you just mention grep?!! This is getting from bad to worse. We're
>speaking about how novices go about finding their way around a computer
>and how this can be made as painless as possible, aren't we?
This could devolve (evolve? :-) ) into a long and philosophical
discussion as to whether it's more useful to have commands such
as 'find', 'move', 'delete', 'erase', 'make_directory' (or
'make_folder' -- thank you, Microsoft), 'print', and 'list',
or 'find', 'mv', 'rm', 'mkdir', 'lpr', and 'ls'. Note that, with
the exception of 'find', the second list is essentially nonsense.
But it's also easy to remember -- at least for me. Perhaps a
linguistics expert can explain this? I'm not sure I can.
One issue for me at one point was the problem with transitioning
from one OS to another -- in my case, it was VMS, Aegis, Daisy DNIX,
Unix, AmigaDOS, and DOS. (Nowadays it's Linux, DOS/Win95, and NT4.)
If all operating systems had the exact same commands, but different
options (and different methods of specifying options!) there are some
issues with respect to remembering exactly which options belong t
which OSes. (It gets even worse if the OSes are just a tad different;
'ld' on Aegis was the file lister, whereas on Unix (and Linux) it is
the program linker; 'cmp' = 'cmpf', 'rm' = 'dlf', 'cd&pwd' = 'wd',
'mv' = 'mvf' -- if memory serves.)
At this point, the Unix operating systems have the same command names,
but slightly different options. For some reason, this isn't quite
as bad although it's a pain -- and it may be because I don't touch
Solaris that often. ('man' helps. :-) )
>
>Look ... Linux/UNIX just doesn't cut it for the average user. Those are
>OS's for those in the know and will always be that way. A novice user
>will be intimidated, put through an unnecessarily involved learning
>experience to achieve the same goals as they can using Windows.
Such as?
I'm inclined to agree with you admittedly, but Windows isn't all
that different when one gets under the hood -- and in fact Windows
is worse for the average developer. IMO, anyway. It's a mess.
With KDE (I don't have KDE2 yet) one might be able to have a go at
moving icons around, or one can just fire up an xterm and type
in commands manually (what's wrong with that? Shoving a soap on a rope
isn't all that fast, especially for a touch typist) to accomplish
what needs to be done.
Try to explain to a novice user why an icon that looks like a document
gets a '[+]' sign sometimes when moving between folders, but why
an icon that looks like a little window with something in it -- or
with nothing in it -- gets an arrow, instead -- or what's supposed to
happen if one double-clicks. Is this reaasonable and intuitive behavior?
I doubt it -- although it's not too hard to fathom, especially when one
can use SHIFT and CTRL to modify the behavior. But this is not the mark
of a stellar GUI, IMO.
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: More Linux good news!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:24:58 GMT
New stability figures shows that Linux is as stable as the big dog Unix
systems Now:
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2651586,00.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:35:13 GMT
GoDrex wrote:
>
> sounds like you have a problem with your configuration
>
My personal experience may well back up your statement.
My Windows box was giving many problems: untimely crashes,
weird behavior, with long, useless search on MS sites for
remedies. This was costing money to the company and time and
frustration to me.
So I decided to get rid of the OEM installation, purchased a
new boxed latest version of OS, and installed and configured
it myself, in a short time. The only problem was the sound
card not supported by native drivers, which forced me to
download the appropriate driver.
Since then I don't experience any more problem. All my
development tools work fine, Office works fine, I may even
listen to stream music from the Internet while working, a
thing that I've never been able to do before because of
crashes which made me loose many hours of work.
Actually the configuration is the key: I installed and
configured Linux, instead of crappy Windows.
Speaking seriously, I'm fed up with installation and
configuration bullshit. Whenever you find a problem, you're
told that's a configuration issue, as if configuration had
nothing to do with OS (poor) quality.
Windows installation and configuration process is completely
out of the hands of the user. The kernel is the same for
everybody, the optional parts are either hardware dependent,
and they're decided by a supposedly smart system, or
application dependent and can be selected by the user. If
the hardware isn't properly detected, or conflicting user
options are allowed that's an OS issue, not a user issue.
After initial setup, subsequent installation of applications
involves three operations: copying the appropriate files to
appropriate folders, setting up registry, and loading
appropriate DLL's.
Copying files has never been an issue, I hope.
But if registry can be fooled, or conflicting DLL's can be
loaded, it's once more an OS issue.
Registry is a single, huge database. I consider it an
idiotic choice, but once done, it requires some elementary
actions to be taken.
The database must follow some rules, and adding or removing
registry keys must be subject to some sort of system
control. An applications should require to register some
abstract operation, that an appropriate system program (or
API or whatever) will register accordingly current system
rules, and performing a consistency check.
If keys are just piled up one after the other, then there's
no way to detect or avoid unruly operations. So it happens
that an applications manages registry making some
assumptions that subsequent releases have made invalid, and
fools up the system. This doesn't mean that the application
is crappy, it's the OS which is crappy.
The same holds for DLL's. An application may load its own
DLL's which are required to perform some operation, but it's
unaware if another, more updated DLL is there, because
naming conventions, release informations, variable names,
etc., do not follow any reasonable logic. Once more it's not
the crappy application, it's the crappy OS at fault.
If I edit by hand, using a hex editor, the IO.sys file or
system.dat, I take full responsibility of the result, but if
I just install OS or applications using MS installer, then
responsibility is fully in MS's hands.
------------------------------
From: "Sam Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:42:15 -0000
> And now that you have saved the file on the disk and forgotten about
> it, what happens when you or someone else comes along later
> and double-clicks it? It is a loaded gun - giving it your blessing
> to live in the filesystem is very dangerous.
So what do you people want to happen? It's unsafe to run it, it's unsafe to
save it and view it in Notepad... What else are we supposed to do with our
attachments?
Besides, in a properly configured system, if I save a file to the disk,
/only/ I can run it, since other people can't access my files.
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Cheers,
Sam
_o/
>\
------------------------------
From: John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: True GTK+ will eliminate Qt in next few years?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:10:27 GMT
James Hutchins writes:
> Because I then have to graphically display the results in various charts,
> plots, etc.
The display is the display and the analysis is the analysis. Use the best
tool for each. The best tool for the analysis is the one that meets your
need for performance. The best tool for the display is one that works well
with whatever you choose for the analysis.
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Linux good news!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:03:46 GMT
Pretty good article.
claire
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:24:58 GMT, sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>New stability figures shows that Linux is as stable as the big dog Unix
>systems Now:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2651586,00.html
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: More Linux good news!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:03:01 GMT
> New stability figures shows that Linux is as stable as the big dog Unix
> systems Now:
> http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2651586,00.html
It is not a matter of software or kernel issue, a well configured kernel
was
as reliable as Solaris one (to say one) for a long time. It is a matter of
hardware,
GNU/Linux uses to be run on PC hardware, while Solaris or HP/UX run on
excellent hardware (even OS-targeted); anyway, a GNU/Linux on a Sun
hardware not only will be as reliable as Solaris, but it will be notable
faster.
Things like exchanging memory or hard disks on the fly may not be availble
nowadays but ... I prefer GNU/Linux than Solaris anyway.
------------------------------
From: . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:08:25 +1300
> By the way on windows shortcuts only appear on desktop,
Sorry buddy, shortcuts under windows can go anywhere... it's just that
they only seem useful on the desktop =)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Thursday 16 November 2000 UNIGROUP Meeting: Pat Villani on Compaq, Unix, and
GNU/Linux
Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:10:54 -0500
Pat Villani, head of the FreeDOS Project, will speak Thursday 16 November 2000
at the UNIGROUP meeting.
http://www.freedos.org
This meeting is open to all, the food is excellent and there's a lot of it.
There is a charge to attend.
Jay Sulzberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org
===========================================
UNIGROUP OF NEW YORK NOVEMBER 2000 REMINDER
===========================================
-----------------------------------------------------
UNIGROUP'S NOVEMBER 2000 GENERAL MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT
-----------------------------------------------------
When: Thursday, November 16, 2000
Where: The Chase Manhattan Bank
55 Water Street (enter at Old Slip)
South Tower
13th Floor, Conference Room C
Time: 6:15 PM - 6:30 PM Registration
6:30 PM - 6:40 PM Ask the Wizard,
Questions, Answers and Current Events
6:40 PM - 6:50 PM Unigroup Business
6:50 PM - 9:30 PM Main Presentation
----------------------------------
Topic: Linux Overview: Today and Tomorrow
----------------------------------
Speaker: Pat Villani,
Compaq Unix Software Engineer
Description of Talk:
====================
Pat's talk will focus on current capabilities of Linux, customer deployments
today, and the expectations for Linux, especially relative to the UNIX
platform. Pat will compare Linux and UNIX functionality on several
dimensions, including high availability, reliability, and system management,
and the enhancements expected in the upcoming release of Linux kernel 2.4.
Pat will also outline activities at Compaq directed at Linux and Tru64 UNIX
commonality and interoperability. The talk will include short summary of the
Linux marketplace, and efforts across Compaq in support of Linux
development, including the recent port of Linux to the iPAQ hand-held and
the deployment of the world's most powerful Linux clusters, built with 1600
AlphaServers.
Our speaker will be supported by members of the Sales and Technical staff
from the Compaq NYC Office.
Giveaways at the talk:
- Linux license plates and mouse pads
- Linux CDs (SuSE 7.0 Evaluation CDs)
- Alpha Linux power tools
- Jumpstart CD for Alpha Linux (an installation utility)
Compaq will be sponsoring the food service at this meeting!
==============================================================================
Complimentary Refreshments will be served. This now includes salads
and sandwiches (eg. turkey, roast beef, chicken, tuna)!
==============================================================================
Fee Schedule:
Yearly Membership (includes all meetings): $ 50.00
* Non-Member Single Meeting: $ 20.00
Student Yearly Membership: $ 20.00
Non-Member Student Single Meeting (with ID): $ 5.00
Cash, Check, American Express.
* Employees of Chase (with ID) can attend general meetings at no charge.
==============================================================================
I hope to see you all at our next meeting!
-Rob Weiner
Unigroup Executive Director
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.unigroup.org
------------------------------
From: . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:15:25 +1300
> > My mistake, I don't know the specifics of ILOVEYOU as I never encountered
> > it.
>
> Then why are you talking about it ?
I already explained that. Read.
> > I assumed it operated on the same bugs that so many other virii have
> > taken advantage of.
>
> Such as ?
Kak, bubbleboy spring to mind.
> > So replace ILOVEYOU with the virus of your choice
> > that IS related to the above problems, and the point is still valid.
>
> Examples ?
You can do some learning and find out for yourself.
------------------------------
From: . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:19:06 +1300
> No. I stated that those OS's don't report uptime via the network. They
> certainly do report uptime locally on the system they're on. Netcraft has a
> list of sites that do not provide uptime at:
No, you didn't. If you had specifically stated the 'via the network'
part, there could have been no confusion.
Let me refresh your memory:
Not to mention the OS's that don't report uptimes at all,
such as OS/2, OS/390, SunOS4, NetWare...
------------------------------
From: "Sam Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:24:25 -0000
If you actually had done that you would have seen something similar to this:
C:\>help
For more information on a specific command, type HELP command-name.
ASSOC Displays or modifies file extension associations
AT Schedules commands and programs to run on a computer.
ATTRIB Displays or changes file attributes.
BREAK Sets or clears extended CTRL+C checking.
CACLS Displays or modifies access control lists (ACLs) of files.
CALL Calls one batch program from another.
CD Displays the name of or changes the current directory.
CHCP Displays or sets the active code page number.
CHDIR Displays the name of or changes the current directory.
CHKDSK Checks a disk and displays a status report.
CHKNTFS Displays or modifies the checking of disk at boot time.
CLS Clears the screen.
CMD Starts a new instance of the Windows 2000 command interpreter.
COLOR Sets the default console foreground and background colors.
COMP Compares the contents of two files or sets of files.
COMPACT Displays or alters the compression of files on NTFS partitions.
CONVERT Converts FAT volumes to NTFS. You cannot convert the
current drive.
COPY Copies one or more files to another location.
DATE Displays or sets the date.
DEL Deletes one or more files.
DIR Displays a list of files and subdirectories in a directory.
DISKCOMP Compares the contents of two floppy disks.
DISKCOPY Copies the contents of one floppy disk to another.
DOSKEY Edits command lines, recalls Windows 2000 commands, and creates
macros
ECHO Displays messages, or turns command echoing on or off.
ENDLOCAL Ends localization of environment changes in a batch file.
ERASE Deletes one or more files.
EXIT Quits the CMD.EXE program (command interpreter).
FC Compares two files or sets of files, and displays the differences
between them.
FIND Searches for a text string in a file or files.
FINDSTR Searches for strings in files.
FOR Runs a specified command for each file in a set of files.
FORMAT Formats a disk for use with Windows 2000.
FTYPE Displays or modifies file types used in file extension
associations.
GOTO Directs the Windows 2000 command interpreter to a labeled line in a
batch program.
GRAFTABL Enables Windows 2000 to display an extended character set in
graphics
mode.
HELP Provides Help information for Windows 2000 commands.
IF Performs conditional processing in batch programs.
LABEL Creates, changes, or deletes the volume label of a disk.
MD Creates a directory.
MKDIR Creates a directory.
MODE Configures a system device.
MORE Displays output one screen at a time.
MOVE Moves one or more files from one directory to another directory.
PATH Displays or sets a search path for executable files.
PAUSE Suspends processing of a batch file and displays a message.
POPD Restores the previous value of the current directory saved by
PUSHD.
PRINT Prints a text file.
PROMPT Changes the Windows 2000 command prompt.
PUSHD Saves the current directory then changes it.
RD Removes a directory.
RECOVER Recovers readable information from a bad or defective disk.
REM Records comments (remarks) in batch files or CONFIG.SYS.
REN Renames a file or files.
RENAME Renames a file or files.
REPLACE Replaces files.
RMDIR Removes a directory.
SET Displays, sets, or removes Windows 2000 environment variables.
SETLOCAL Begins localization of environment changes in a batch file.
SHIFT Shifts the position of replaceable parameters in batch files.
SORT Sorts input.
START Starts a separate window to run a specified program or command.
SUBST Associates a path with a drive letter.
TIME Displays or sets the system time.
TITLE Sets the window title for a CMD.EXE session.
TREE Graphically displays the directory structure of a drive or path.
TYPE Displays the contents of a text file.
VER Displays the Windows 2000 version.
VERIFY Tells Windows 2000 whether to verify that your files are written
correctly to a disk.
VOL Displays a disk volume label and serial number.
XCOPY Copies files and directory trees.
C:\>help dir
Displays a list of files and subdirectories in a directory.
DIR [drive:][path][filename] [/A[[:]attributes]] [/B] [/C] [/D] [/L] [/N]
[/O[[:]sortorder]] [/P] [/Q] [/S] [/T[[:]timefield]] [/W] [/X] [/4]
[drive:][path][filename]
Specifies drive, directory, and/or files to list.
/A Displays files with specified attributes.
attributes D Directories R Read-only files
H Hidden files A Files ready for archiving
S System files - Prefix meaning not
/B Uses bare format (no heading information or summary).
/C Display the thousand separator in file sizes. This is the
default. Use /-C to disable display of separator.
/D Same as wide but files are list sorted by column.
/L Uses lowercase.
/N New long list format where filenames are on the far right.
/O List by files in sorted order.
sortorder N By name (alphabetic) S By size (smallest first)
E By extension (alphabetic) D By date/time (oldest first)
G Group directories first - Prefix to reverse order
/P Pauses after each screenful of information.
/Q Display the owner of the file.
/S Displays files in specified directory and all subdirectories.
/T Controls which time field displayed or used for sorting
timefield C Creation
A Last Access
W Last Written
/W Uses wide list format.
/X This displays the short names generated for non-8dot3 file
names. The format is that of /N with the short name inserted
before the long name. If no short name is present, blanks are
displayed in its place.
/4 Displays four-digit years
Switches may be preset in the DIRCMD environment variable. Override
preset switches by prefixing any switch with - (hyphen)--for example, /-W.
etc etc
Besides, there's always [command] /?...
C:\>help ping
This command is not supported by the help utility. Try "ping /?".
C:\>ping /?
Usage: ping [-t] [-a] [-n count] [-l size] [-f] [-i TTL] [-v TOS]
[-r count] [-s count] [[-j host-list] | [-k host-list]]
[-w timeout] destination-list
Options:
-t Ping the specified host until stopped.
To see statistics and continue - type Control-Break;
To stop - type Control-C.
-a Resolve addresses to hostnames.
-n count Number of echo requests to send.
-l size Send buffer size.
-f Set Don't Fragment flag in packet.
-i TTL Time To Live.
-v TOS Type Of Service.
-r count Record route for count hops.
-s count Timestamp for count hops.
-j host-list Loose source route along host-list.
-k host-list Strict source route along host-list.
-w timeout Timeout in milliseconds to wait for each reply.
--
Cheers,
Sam
_o/
>\
------------------------------
From: "Aleksandar V." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:50:55 +0100
Michael Vester wrote:
> Your best bet is comp.os.linux.setup, this is an advocacy
> group where Windows advocates come to throw stones. When I
> setup dual boot system, I scrub the drive first. It is just
> easier that way. Windows needs periodic re-installation
> anyways just to keep it running.
>
>
Michael,
Can I ask you a simple question? You seem to be running a Netscape 4.61 under
Linux. I'm using Netscape 4.51 but it cannot cache newsgroup messages,
although in the preferences the option "keep all newsgroup messages" is
turned on.
Can your version of browser cache messages? Or is there a way, maybe, of
setting Netscape to work correctly?
Thanks,
Sascha
------------------------------
From: "CC Ghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:43:10 -0500
Les Mikesell wrote in message ...
<snip>
>The
>windows developers where I work always have to specify
>the service pack needed for visual c++ to build any particular
>product. How do people deal with this lack of reliability?
In most cases I have seen, the requirement for a
specific service pack is usually due to improper
or incomplete configuration management rather
than a deficiency on the part of the compiler.
Developers in Windows environments tend
to constantly install toys and beta products that
mess with shared DLLs and registry settings,
and the recommendation for a specific service
pack is not to alter the behavior of the compiler
(something MS does not usually do in a service
pack, anyway), but to repair damage to
development machine configurations caused
by developer carelessness.
I have often been called upon to take over CM
tasks on projects (or sometime implement CM
for the first time, ever in the organization) due to
just this sort of problem.
------------------------------
From: Michael Livshin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: 15 Nov 2000 23:39:16 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) writes:
> I'm not saying you should use C++ without polymorphism. I'm pointing
> out that you don't need to use much manual memory management in C++.
any non-zero amount is enough for me, thankyouverymuch.
> >the "dynamic languages" I know (Java (to some extent), Lisp,
> >Scheme, Smalltalk, E, etc) simply don't have the FUCKING STUPID
> >C/C++ "feature" of throwing object type information away once the
> >compiler is finished with the program.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here. C++ does have rtti, but it's often
> not used. Explicitly identifying classes instead of using polymorphism
> is a sloppy programming practice.
when you utter broad claims like the above, don't forget to add "in
C++". as in: "C++ doesn't support run-time type identification very
well, so explicitly identifying classes is a sloppy programming
practice in C++".
actually, I'm not claiming that such a style is a good idea. I only
claim that throwing information away for now good reason is FUCKING
STUPID. it just may become handy -- debugging and error recovery come
to mind. there are other reasons, but you won't consider them valid
because apparently you think in C++.
> BTW, the Qt object system add more run time type information. I don't think
> that's a terribly good thing, but the point is that there are development
> frameworks for C++ that do add more runtime information to types.
good. any chance that it gets standartized?
> >and what exactly is wrong with run-time errors that can be recovered
> >from? C++ run-time errors cannot be recovered from because C++
> >run-time environment is mind-bogglingly dumb.
>
> C++ has exceptions. You can certainly recover from run time errors
> in C++.
I don't mean exceptions. I mean real errors. ones that lead to
segfaults in C/C++ apps, since the stupid app just has no brains to
cope with "out-of-bound" situations.
possibility of recovery (or at least very graceful reporting) from
*any* error is quite important for big long-running applications. you
can't recover from a segfault terribly well, I'm afraid.
> Since we were comparing it to C, it's certainly a lot easier to recover
> from run time errors in C++ than it is in C.
yes, from the ones you expect. (no, wrapping your main in a "try {}
catch (...)" doesn't count).
oh, by the way: can you continue from a C++ exception? (answer: no).
> >also, C++ type system is simply too weak. you have to cast around it
> >to get non-trivially interesting behavior,
>
> No you don't.
well, I suppose you are right here, in a way. if you *think* in C++.
'cause I don't, and I find it painful when I try to.
> The point is that something that is widely used is more likely to
> attract criticism than something that is only used by its passionate
> advocates. The fact that C++ is criticised is more a reflection of
> the fact that it is used outside a small core of passionate
> advocates.
I'm afraid you are wrong here. C++ is criticized because it sucks.
--
(only legal replies to this address are accepted)
This computer thanks you for your attention.
G O O D B Y E
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
