Linux-Advocacy Digest #460, Volume #30 Mon, 27 Nov 00 02:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Mandrake 7.2 Quick Review (Jacques Guy)
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Insite into Linux Kernel 2.4 ("Slava Pestov")
Re: Whistler review. (Charlie Ebert)
Re: KDE2 (matt newell)
Re: KDE2 (matt newell)
Re: Whistler review. (Matthew Soltysiak)
Re: Whistler review. (Matthew Soltysiak)
Re: KDE2 (matt newell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 05:25:37 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Mandrake 7.2 Quick Review
"." wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > That's what I did but there is something wrong with the image.
> No, there is something wrong with your brain.
^^^^^^^^^
Stuff and nonsense! EVERYTHING is wrong with her brain.
And with her image too. And with her mirror. Ain't that
so, Sir Twatty Bird, darling? Here, let me answer for
you, saves you typing:
> Dork.
C'est ça, la galanterie française, mon chou.
And let me improve on your review, here:
> It sucks.
Terser, to the point, hard-hitting, and a huge saving
of bandwidth!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 05:48:54 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
mlw wrote:
>Salvador Peralta wrote:
>
>>
>> I wish I had a success story to relate on this one, but management
>> decided to replace micromistake #1 with micromistake #2 and picked
>> sequel to replace it because the original developer had since learned
>> sequel and somehow convinced his manager that it would work, and after
>> all, he was the one who had experience with the project. "It's easy to
>> port applications from access to sequel. That's why I went with access
>> in the first place."... lol.
>>
>> Needless to say, the design could NOT be ported to anything without a
>> complete rewrite. That person has since left the company without doing
>> the rewrite ( but after the new licenses had been purchased ).
>>
>> As I said, stupid in yields stupid out.
>
>I have spent my time with networked xbase systems, the client/server
>database model is far far better. MS SQL is an OK database, I'd go
>Oracle if I had too, but I have had great success with Postgres.
>
I just had to pop this in.
MySQL is a very fast database but it is no good for large databases.
Oracle is good for large scale databases but I find that large 4GL
processes such as Lawson use little of Oracles capabilities.
Lawson's principle is absolutely KISS. {Keep it simple stupid}
Since Postgres has the storage capability of Oracle, Lawson
would have a better fit if they actually used Postgres.
Postgres has functionality to use all the Lawson database maintenance
routines, the capacity and the price is much better.
Yet, if you really are an Oracle fan and don't mind the cost,
use it on Linux or a Unix for god sakes. Don't go out and
screw up a nice database by installing on some Windows server.
>Suffice to say, if one person is going to use the system, use something
>like access. If you are going to share the database amongst more than
>one person, pop the cash required for a database server. These days they
>are cheap, and you WILL regret not doing it if you don't.
>
>--
>http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Slava Pestov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Insite into Linux Kernel 2.4
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:50:27 +1000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew Soltysiak
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yea, it does... But i'm worried about capatibilty.. I would love to use
> 2.4, with the new features and performance enhancments, but it looks
> like
> it will break the capatablity line with 2.2 binaries and OS structures.
> I hope not...but...oh well
Nope. Old binaries will continue to work, and there is no need to
recompile as the other guy claimed.
The ones that might break are the ones that interface with the kernel
(like modutils, etc)
Slava
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 05:54:13 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>kiwiunixman wrote:
>>
>> Spicerun, calm down, I think Ayende is a little excited because Windows
>> may actually reach the realiability of UNIX/Linux (which is very
>> unlikely due to its very poor design/achitecture), however, I don't
>> think it will happen. From the description, it seem like Whistler will
>> be mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega bloatware that will
>> require a 1Ghz processor and 512MB RAM just so that it can run a decent
>> level of responsiveness due to all the hairy-fairy addons a gizmo's
>> Microsoft has added to the OS (which most people don't really need).
>>
>
>Actually....
>Ayende was saying...
>
>Wow....look at this car
>
>It's great
>It's fantastic.
>
>They painted it at the factory!!!!
>
>No, I don't know anything about whether the engine is any good,
>or how it handles in turns....or even going in a straight line
>down a highway at a mere 60 km/h (US 40 mph)...i only got to
>drive it 5 feet forwards and back..
>
>Yeah...I know there's no locks on the doors...and you can't
>roll up the windows...and...you know...it doesn't have any
>rear view mirrors...or seat belts...and that hand-crank in
>place of the usual steering wheel is gonna take some getting
>used to...and...yeah, it's kinda strange how they put the
>radio upside down mounted on the floor...it's got a really
>leaky fuel system...but...it's got a custom paint job...and
>when I crack up on the highway, and die in a ball of fire...
>well, it's gonna look really cool!
>
>And...looking cool THAT's what's REALLY important...
>
>
It is going to be just like all the other Windows releases.
People are going to notice and file to have 17,000 items
fixed which were broken. Then after about the 4th service
pack they will have the CT list down to say 7,000 items
and still have time to deny any security issues.
Meanstwhile in Communist China and other parts over in
Asia, China 2000 will be released under a government
development model! And then thousands of bugs will
probably be released that same year also. Mainly
against the Whistler {American version} of Windome's.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:43:27 -0800
> It was the Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0800...
> ...and matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > : > : > > > : > : > bonobo : : KDE has kparts for embedable components
> > > : > : > and
> > > > > dcop for desktop : communication.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is kparts CORBA-based? I've looked at the developer.kde.org info
> > > > > on kparts. It supports network transparency for *document
> > > > > operations*. How about some network transparency for the
> > > > > objects???
> > >
> > > No, Corba proved to be to big and slow for embedable components,
>
> You mean: KDE's CORBA implementation proved to be too big and too slow
> for KDE's embeddable components.
>
> > > so the came up with kparts. I don't know what you mean network
> > > transparency for objects? When would you open a document using a
> > > part that is not on your own computer. This seems like unusable
> > > overkill.
>
> Yeah, sure. Because KDE doesn't support it it must be unusuable
> overkill.
>
> What about a server serving components and controls to an entire
> office? At LinuxTag 1999, the KDE people told me that this was one of
> the great features that would be made possible by the wonderful
> network transparency of KOM/OpenParts.
>
> And now?
This can still be done very easily. Having a component server just means that
the components reside on the server, it does not mean that the components must
run on the server. Example: You click on some type of document that there is
no program to open, the server can be contacted and a component can be
downloaded and run. The initial downloading will take a bit longer, but the
effect is the same and the resulting performance is much better than if the
component communicated with the application over the network. The component
can then be cached by kde's builtin caching system(ksyscoa). The same goal is
achieved.
> > > If I need a plugin to open some kind of document I will
> > > install it.
>
> Sounds a lot like the Windows world. I've worked in a company where
> they had an entire subdepartment devoted to having software
> installations roll out to their fat clients. Incredible overhead.
Described above.
> > > : > : > > > : > : > oaf medusa : : I don't know what these are?
> > > > >
> > > > > oaf == Object activation framework. It's the GNOME 2.0
> > > > > replacement for gnorba. Each server registers itself using an XML
> > > > > format. When an application requires a specific kind of service,
> > > > > it performs an OAF query, and finds the object(s) it needs to
> > > > > instantiate to service its request.
> > >
> > > This is the same as dcop. It uses xml and can communicate with any
> > > program using any language.
>
> I'm not sure you actually understood what the previous poster wrote.
Give me further explanation then.
> > > : > : > > > : > : > or GConf. : : : : Kcontrol.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nothing of the kind. GConf provides applications a simple,
> > > > > consistent interface to store and retrieve configuration data.
> > > > > Kcontrol is just a control panel, not unlike gnomecc.
> > >
> > > I see what you are talking about now. KDE has something similar
> > > called KConfig. It works very well. Here is a small example, this
> > > code is pulled straight out of Kedit.
> > >
> > > void TopLevel::readProperties(KConfig* config){ QString filename =
> > > config->readEntry("filename",""); int modified =
> > > config->readNumEntry("modified",0); int line =
> > > config->readNumEntry("current_line", 0); int col =
> > > config->readNumEntry("current_column", 0);
>
> Does it automatically notify all the listeners about key changes? Does
> it support the model/view/controller paradigm? Does it support
> multiple back ends?
Yes, applications are informed of changes to configuration files with dcop. I
don't know if it currently does support multiple backends, but from a
programmers standpoint, you don't need to know. Backends are called backends
because they are not seen from the front.
> > > : : > > : : A great Web Browser that supports many standards and is
> > > > > getting better : every : day without accumulating bloat.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd agree that Konqueror is a nice browser. It's a shame I've got
> > > > > to install almost the entire KDE distribution just to get that.
> > > > > Fortunately, galeon is getting better all the time.
> > >
> > > Will galeon support embedable components, it is nice to be able to
> > > view images, pdf files, text files, Office documents, and anything
> > > else with a plugin.
>
> Why should a Web browser be able to do that?
The question is not why, the question is why not. KDE2 is so modularized that
it doesn't take extra memory to have these abilities available and they can
easily be turned off if you don't like them. For every different mime type
you can specify whether you want it to be viewed internally, opened with an
application of your choice, or to be prompted at the time.
> We've got Nautilus for that purpose.
>
> mawa
Nautilus looks very good and I hope it much success.
Matt Newell
------------------------------
From: matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:57:37 -0800
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0800, matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : : I meant a gtk+ theme.
>
> Actually, I just read about it today.. There will be "GNOME Themes" after
> all.. Helixcode is hosting a project called "metathemes", the goal of which
> is to provide a united theming interface for Gtk+, Sawfish (& other WMs if
> the plugins get written), Xmms, and there are rumblings about doing it
> Mozilla too. There's an alpha out that I haven't tried yet, but have
> heard very positive things about.
This is a very good idea. KDE already has this to a certain extent. You can
specify background and foreground colors and they are used by the widgets and
the window manager(kwin). The best thing about KDE's themes are the fact that
you can change their look so much, you can't do this with a pixmap based theme.
> : : Claiming that writing programs in C++ because the ABI is just now
> : becoming
> : : mature is counterproductive. If people only used languages that had
> : mature : compilers there would never be any new languages and we would
> : still be doing : systems programming in asm.
>
> It's not just the ABI. C++ is a moving target. There is no stable, released
> version of a C++ compiler on Linux that has a good STL implementation.
This is a whole different argument that I don't know all that much about.
> : : No, Corba proved to be to big and slow for embedable components, so the
> : came
> : : up with kparts. I don't know what you mean network transparency for
> : objects? : When would you open a document using a part that is not on your
> : own computer.
> : : This seems like unusable overkill. If I need a plugin to open some kind
> : of : document I will install it.
>
> Not at all, welcome to the networked workplace. Not everyone works in an
> isolated environment. The Network Is the Computer (thanks for the line
> Scott!).
This can still be done in a network transparent way.
Example: You click on some type of document that there is
no program to open, the server can be contacted and a component can be
downloaded and run. The initial downloading will take a bit longer, but the
effect is the same and the resulting performance is much better than if the
component communicated with the application over the network. The component
can then be cached by kde's builtin caching system(ksyscoa). The same goal is
achieved.
> : : Will galeon support embedable components, it is nice to be able to view
> : : images, pdf files, text files, Office documents, and anything else with a
> : : plugin.
>
> I'm not sure about that.. Galeon's motto is "the web, only the web". :-)
> Not email, not news, nothing but the web. Personally speaking, I HATE it
> when a browser opens up an office document. I want to DOWNLOAD the blasted
> thing, not look at it in a browser window..
KDE2 is so modularized that it doesn't take extra memory to have these
abilities available and they can easily be turned off if you don't like them.
For every different mime type you can specify whether you want it to be viewed
internally, opened with an application of your choice, or to be prompted at
the time.
> : > : > Oh, like gtk-engines? It's good to see the KDE team catching up in
> : > that : > area!
> : :
> : : Yes, but KDE supports both KDE and gtk themes.
>
> It needs to. :) http://kde.themes.org/ only has FOUR KDE2 themes.
>
KDE2 just came out and the themes aren't all that easy to make.
Matt Newell
------------------------------
From: Matthew Soltysiak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:03:58 GMT
>
> I DON'T CARE!!!
>
> I will still continue to run my Linux System which has performed for me better
> than anything MS has ever done.
>
Ok, so go away... why did you respond to this? Stupid linvocates.. whistler will
continue windows domination over the world.
--
Matthew Soltysiak
Comp Sci/Soft Eng
ICQ: 3063118
------------------------------
From: Matthew Soltysiak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:05:25 GMT
I have a p3 500...128 meg ram...runs fine... at least it's GUI doesn't segfault as
much as KDE or GNOME! haha.. :) oh brother.
kiwiunixman wrote:
> Spicerun, calm down, I think Ayende is a little excited because Windows
> may actually reach the realiability of UNIX/Linux (which is very
> unlikely due to its very poor design/achitecture), however, I don't
> think it will happen. From the description, it seem like Whistler will
> be mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega-mega bloatware that will
> require a 1Ghz processor and 512MB RAM just so that it can run a decent
> level of responsiveness due to all the hairy-fairy addons a gizmo's
> Microsoft has added to the OS (which most people don't really need).
>
> kiwiunixman
>
> spicerun wrote:
>
> > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I've finally gotten whistler (pro, 2296, beta 1), and I'm *liking* it.
> >
> >
> > I DON'T CARE!!!
> >
> > I will still continue to run my Linux System which has performed for me better
> > than anything MS has ever done.
> >
> > <EOM>
--
Matthew Soltysiak
Comp Sci/Soft Eng
ICQ: 3063118
------------------------------
From: matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:06:57 -0800
> It was the Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:38:39 -0800...
> ...and matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Compilers only become mature when they are tested, and KDE is
> > > proving that C++ is great for gui programming and they are testing
> > > the compiler.
>
> This is not what I would consider an argument in favour of KDE as a
> development framework. "Well, by using it and/or developing for it,
> you help test the C++ compiler." Yeah, sure.
I never said that this was in favor of KDE. I was making it clear that just
because the C++ compiler isn't as mature as the C compiler, does not mean that
C++ is a bad language to use.
> > > > > BTW - KDE2 doesn't have anything as advanced as gnome-print,
> > > QT's print model is much easier and more flexible that that of gnome.
> > With > gnome you are force to rewrite all of your drawing code to print,
> > while with
> > > QT you just specify that the painter use a printer instead of a widget.
> > No > drawing code changes are involved.
>
> How does Qt's printing model manage fonts? Antialiasing?
> Pixel-precision, zoomable, antialiased previewing? Which output
> formats does it support?
Qt's printing model manages fonts the same way as it manages onscreen fonts.
As for antialiasing and pixel precision, it outputs Postscript which is a
vector graphics format and therefore does not need to worry about antialiasing.
Zooming and previewing are handled just like Widget drawing. KDE has
transformation matricies that can be pushed and popped, like a 2d version of
opengl. This easily handles zooming, rotations, transformations and anything
else you can do with a matrix.
> > > Some of the technical merits that KDE provides:
> [[schnibble]
> > > A truly wonderfull and well thought out API
> [[schnibble]
>
> What a technical argument. I'm flabbergasted.
>
> mawa
Matt Newell
------------------------------
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