Linux-Advocacy Digest #151, Volume #35 Tue, 12 Jun 01 07:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Dennis Ritchie -- He Created Unix, But Now Uses Microsoft Windows (Ian Pulsford)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux (Peter
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff? (mlw)
Re: More funny stuff. ("Edward Rosten")
Re: which OS is better to learn for an entry level job? ("Edward Rosten")
Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff? (mlw)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) (Nick Condon)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) (Nick Condon)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts getting
good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!) (Nick Condon)
Re: Why homosexuals are no threat to heterosexuals ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Why homosexuals are no threat to heterosexuals ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff? (mlw)
Re: which OS is better to learn for an entry level job? (pip)
Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux ("Edward Rosten")
Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff? ("Edward Rosten")
Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff? (mlw)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:20:00 +1000
From: Ian Pulsford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dennis Ritchie -- He Created Unix, But Now Uses Microsoft Windows
pip wrote:
>
> GreyCloud wrote:
> > Find us a link and prove it.
>
> Are you so shocked that it could not possibly be true ? :)
>
> He probably just uses it for the games anyhow.
That was one of the original motivations behind the creation of unix.
IanP
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:09:59 +0200
Edward Rosten wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Peter Köhlmann"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Was the Z1 based on vacuum tubes or electronic switches? Or did it use
>>> mechanical/pneumatic switches?
>>>
>>
>> Mechanical. It worked with relays which Zuse himself built. Quite a show
>> of perseverance, I´d say.
>
> It didn't use realys. It didn't use electricity apart for the mechanical
> drive.
>
Wrong.
Peter
--
Microsoft is not the the answer.
Microsoft is the question.
The answer is NO
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:22:54 -0400
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> > > I *like* being able to get total control, I *don't* like being forced to
> it.
> >
> > That's like saying I like driving a car, but I don't want to have to be
> > careful. Get a moped.
>
> Do you've any idea how *simple* driving became?
> 90 years ago you could break your arm if you didn't use the gear shift
> correctly.
> And you needed to be able to fix the car yourself.
I have been programing in C since there was "C," and I know how to fix my car
too.
Damnit!! People who program computers should, at least, understand how
computers work. When one understands how a computer functions, C and C++ are
trivial. It is only when they lack understanding about the very device they are
trying to use, is programming difficult.
function()
{
int a[25];
char *b = malloc(25*sizeof(int));
int *c = a;
/** do something **/
}
If one does not understand the declarations in the above function, then they
should not program in C or C++. Similarly:
char *function(char *str)
{
char *p;
strcpy(p, str);
return p;
}
If the above fails to cause a headache just by looking at it, don't use "C."
However,
char *function(char *str)
{
int len = strlen(str)*2+1;
char p[len];
char *pT = p;
while(*str)
{
switch(*str)
{
case '@':
case '\'':
*pT++='@';
*pT++=*str++;
break;
default:
*pT++=*str++;
break;
}
}
return strdup(p);
}
If one can look at the above function, and say WOW! gcc can do that, and know
exactly what I'm talking about, then they should be able to use "C" without any
problems.
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More funny stuff.
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:19:21 +0100
In article <9g4kpi$p5i$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
<don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9g4k1d$97e$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In article <9g3146$j41$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ayende Rahien"
>
>
>> > a.. Colleague: "Hey! I hate these Microsoft guys! What a rotten
>> > compiler!
>> > It only accepts 16,384 local variables in a function!"
>>
>> That is one of my favourite!
>>
>> 16384 local variables? What in hells name was he doing, I wonder.
>
> I don't know and I'm afraid to ask. I can't think of a single good
> reason why you would need so many local variables. The reason for
> functions is to
> *break* the program to little pieces, if you need many local variables,
> you aren't breaking it to little enough pieces. I mean, the human brain
> can only hold 7 or so items at one time, and programmers has to juggle
> enough in their brain as it is.
>
> Well, I *can* think of *one* situation where you would need so many
> variables, if you wanted to handle large amounts of data and wasn't
> aware of arrays ;-D
Ouch!
Imagine hand coding that!
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: which OS is better to learn for an entry level job?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:22:18 +0100
>> > First programming language learnt was BBC Basic, followed by
>> > AmigaBASIC
>> ^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Good choice. One of the best and fastest BASICs ever made. Also one of
>> the few (only one?) that could cope with memory allocation and
>> pointers.
>
> Never had the chance to use BBC Basic. Actually, never heard of it.
> Everything at the time was MS Basic this or MS that....
Well, BBC basic was more common in the UK than anywhere else, which makes
sense consiering the BBC is the major braodcaster in the UK, rather than
anywhere else.
It was a very fast basic, it was compiled in to a kind of byte code when
you entered each line. It was also a very capable BASIC.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
/d{def}def/f{/Times-Roman findfont s scalefont setfont}d/s{10}d/r{roll}d f 5 -1
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------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:42:05 -0400
Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> >> > nearly as fast.
> >>
> >> Again, I'm not talking about the power of the language. I program in
> >> C/C++ myself. I'm talking about the *ease* of the language. I'm sure
> >> you'll agree with me that C isn't a language that is either easy to
> >> learn or easy to write robust code with.
> >
> > It is very easy to learn. It is very easy to write robust programs. The
> > issue is you have to learn how.
>
> I disagree. I think there are easier lanugages to learn and there are
> certainly eaiser languages to write robust code in. One of the benefits
> of C is that it is very powerful and flexible, but this does not came at
> no expense.
>
> Even when you know C it is possibel to make silly buffer overrun mistakes.
Even carpenters hit their thumb with a hammer. It doesn't mean that they want
light weight rubber hammers. A tool is a tool. If the tool has so much
protection around it that it inhibits a professional's ability to get the job
done, it isn't a very good tool.
Perl, Java, and the like are the equivalent of programming for dummies. They
are languages with training wheels. The kiddie coaster of programming. The
sandbox, if you will, in which newbe programmers play until they want learn how
to be real software engineers.
I know that is an outrageous opinion, and it is extreme for the effect, but it
has elements of truth. One can not write a device driver in perl. The JVM can
not directly access I/O ports. These are examples of what software engineers
should understand.
Try writing a file compression utility in java. Now write that same utility in
C or C++ using all the nice features that C and C++ have. The function
mmap(...) can make the whole compression chore as easy as rifling through a
buffer. There is no comparison, the C or C++ code can be so much fatser and
require fewer resources, than the equivilent in Java or perl.
Why would one use Java? Why perl?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 12 Jun 2001 10:41:55 GMT
drsquare wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:40:47 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine))
>wrote:
>>Some other countries might. It is not clear, for instance, whether
>>Cuba has such.
>
>But most other developed countries have more relaxed laws than
>America. For instance, in most countries you can look at a woman
>without being sued for sexual harassment.
Not to mention most civilised countries allow 19 year old adults to drink
margaritas with their Mexican mush if they want to.
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 12 Jun 2001 10:43:18 GMT
GreyCloud wrote:
>David Brown wrote:
>> Where would you be without your TV and your Cola, your antibiotics and
>> your steam engine? All are Scottish inventions, but I could hardly
>> claim that Scotland is a "better" country than the US because of it.
>> Nor could I claim it as a personal achievement, as you seem to.
>
>Keep dreaming.... without Tesla none of these electronic marvels would
>have happened.
Electric steam engines? Nice one!
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux starts
getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!)
Date: 12 Jun 2001 10:45:10 GMT
GreyCloud wrote:
>Let us not forget Nikolai Tesla. Without his advanced thinking we
>wouldn't have TV, Radio, solenoids, AC power, etc. He got out of Europe
>from the "Impossible, can't be done" crowd. He came to America where he
>could freely invent and test.
And promptly had all his ideas robbed by Edison, who had better patent
lawyers.
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why homosexuals are no threat to heterosexuals
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:45:36 -0400
Ed Cogburn wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>
> >
> > which DEADLY, INCURABLE diseases are spread by heterosexual contact?
>
> Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome.
Not for men.
>
> Aaron, you ignorant and sad excuse for a human being, I told you before
> when you were on one of your rants that the population of Zimbabwe is
> being decimated by AIDS, as well as other areas in Africa, and the
> transmission is exclusively HETEROSEXUAL. They have orphanages full of
> orphans who have lost their parents to AIDS, and many of them have
> gotten AIDS too, from their mother.
And this is pertinent to North America how, exactly?
>
> Despite your stupid statements, the truth is still there for anyone to
> see, just go to Zimbabwe in Africa or Thailand in Asia or other areas in
> both regions, and you will find AIDS spreading among HETEROSEXUAL
> POPULATIONS. ANY heterosexual involved with multiple partners, and
> especially the women who are more vulnerable, should rightfully fear
> AIDS no matter where they are in this world.
>
> --
> It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. -- Voltaire
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why homosexuals are no threat to heterosexuals
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:47:34 -0400
Burkhard Wölfel wrote:
>
> Ed Cogburn wrote:
> >
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome.
> >
> > Aaron, you ignorant and sad excuse for a human being, I told you before
> > when you were on one of your rants that the population of Zimbabwe is
> > being decimated by AIDS, as well as other areas in Africa, and the
> > transmission is exclusively HETEROSEXUAL. They have orphanages full of
> > orphans who have lost their parents to AIDS, and many of them have
> > gotten AIDS too, from their mother.
> >
> > Despite your stupid statements, the truth is still there for anyone to
> > see, just go to Zimbabwe in Africa or Thailand in Asia or other areas in
> > both regions, and you will find AIDS spreading among HETEROSEXUAL
> > POPULATIONS.
>
> Most important fact is that _we_ are all concerned, AIDS is an
> intercultural disease. No matter how high the risk really is, sometimes
> discussions like this serve only to forget that it's _my_ health that is
> in danger.
> Talking about minorities is easy if you don't belong to them: whatever
> taboo I might get to, it's not my life.
> BTW, a good way to get those discussions (face to face, esp. in groups)
> back to earth is talking about contraception and sexuality of the people
> involved: Now the taboo is ours, the problem is ours and we are talking
> about everyday life, not as seen on TV or read in papers written to fit
> into everyone's lunch break.
>
> Think about this:
> When my girl and I decided to leave condoms outta bed, I proposed to
> get us both tested. She was a bit frightened at first, thought that
> there was only danger where there's a test, but it was easy to convince
> her: How could she know if I lied to her or not? What if I knew I had
> AIDS and didn't tell her? (Yeah, excellent rhetoric device for
> positively predisposed relationships: just twist it around the evil way.
> Works.)
> She called her gynaecologist and was told to come next day. When she
> arrived, there already was rumors and rants like "uuh, you're the one
> with the <look left, look right> AIDS test <g> ". Imagine the faces of
> the other patients waiting.
> The doctor was really cool: He told her to have the test made
> anonymously at the "Gesundheitsamt", a public health care office,
> because her health insurance record would block her entry into public
> service.
> Once again: This doctor said, Lady, don't let your future employer (the
> Fed. Rep. of Germany) know that you had yourself tested or they won't
> employ you. And this guy even knew examples!
> And all we wanted to do is live our relationship in a responsible way.
>
> People, this is so pervert, I couldn't believe it.
> And the pervertion is the same as with Mr. "baise-cule" Kulekiss: take a
> strong sexual taboo, fear of death and painful disease and start to
> gossip. The greater the distance (taboo) the easier assumptions and
> guesses become "truth". The whole thing works quite fine, as long as it
> is not disturbed by truth, which would mostly be a catastrophe in these
> cases.
Well, this may come as a surprise to you, but the US Army tests EVERY
soldier for AIDS every 6-12 months.
>
> The only way to cure AIDS is to get to the splinter in our own eyes.
> AIDS has something to do with all of our lives, habits and lifestyles.
> Bothering with other people's ones will not solve the problem, neither
> does it answer the question of guilt properly, which wouldn't solve the
> problem either.
>
> BTW, I totally left out the possibility that Mr. Kulekiss simply waits
> to be f###ed in his a## and doesn't know how to put it... But I think
> he's only a punk begging for attention (like they all do).
>
> Happy testing,
> B.
>
> > ANY heterosexual involved with multiple partners, and
> > especially the women who are more vulnerable, should rightfully fear
> > AIDS no matter where they are in this world.
> >
> > --
> > It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. -- Voltaire
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------
> Burkhard Wölfel
> v e r s u c h s a n s t a l t (at) g m x . de
> pubkey for this adress @ pgp.net
> ---------------------------------------------
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:53:47 -0400
Brian Langenberger wrote:
>
> drsquare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <snip!>
>
> :>C is certainly not easier, C is one of the hardest languages in existance.
> :>It's popular, I'll give you that, but it's not easy.
>
> : Hard? Are you joking? It's one of the easiest languages there is.
>
> C is a very small language; smaller than most languages that preceeded it,
> and most that have come after it. By virtue of being small, its
> compilers are easy to port and it takes very little time to learn
> its basics. But since it is so small, C also requires a great deal
> of programmer effort to get the program from point X to point Y.
> So, one could say that C is both hard and easy at the same time,
> for different reasons.
>
> I like C, but not for everything.
I pretty much agree, but practically no one programs with only the compiler and
C runtime. There are so many libraries and add-ons that C can produce code as
easily as any other high level language.
------------------------------
From: pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: which OS is better to learn for an entry level job?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:53:31 +0100
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> I am learning on the
> side, Java, which looks like a pretty interesting language.
It is a very nice language.
http://java.sun.com/tutorial - the Java tutorial
http://www.afu.com - the Java FAQ
http://mindprod.com/gloss.html - java glossary
Also download "Thinking In Java" and buy:
http://www.bruceeckel.com
And "Just Java" by Peter van der Linden is very good and the books from
Sun ("From The Source" series).
comp.lang.java.programmer - is full of helpful people and the big IRC
servers are also very good for a quick answer (rather surprisingly).
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: European arrogance and ignorance... (was Re: Just when Linux
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:53:01 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Peter Köhlmann"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Edward Rosten wrote:
>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Peter Köhlmann"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Was the Z1 based on vacuum tubes or electronic switches? Or did it
>>>> use mechanical/pneumatic switches?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mechanical. It worked with relays which Zuse himself built. Quite a
>>> show of perseverance, I´d say.
>>
>> It didn't use realys. It didn't use electricity apart for the
>> mechanical drive.
>>
> Wrong.
Provide a reference. You are completely wrong. It was a purely mechanical
device.
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Zuse.html
http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part3a.htm
The Z1 did not use relays, but instead consisted completely of thin
metal sheets, which he and his friends produced using a jigsaw.
The only one electrical unit was an electrical engine, which was
used to provide a clock frequency of one Hertz.
http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/en/Rechner_Z1.html
Implementation: thin metal plates worked with a fret saw
So before just claiming I'm "wrong", try to be right yourself, it won't
look quite so bad that way.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:56:38 +0100
>> Even when you know C it is possibel to make silly buffer overrun
>> mistakes.
>
> Even carpenters hit their thumb with a hammer. It doesn't mean that they
> want light weight rubber hammers. A tool is a tool. If the tool has so
> much protection around it that it inhibits a professional's ability to
> get the job done, it isn't a very good tool.
> Perl, Java, and the like are the equivalent of programming for dummies.
> They are languages with training wheels. The kiddie coaster of
> programming. The sandbox, if you will, in which newbe programmers play
> until they want learn how to be real software engineers.
I generally agree with a lot of what you say, but HLLs do have their
uses. I write most of my short disposable programs in AWK because for
quite a lot of things its easier and quicker to write them in AWK than C.
For anything big I'd use C.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What language are use to program Linux stuff?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:03:36 -0400
"Funky-Fresh Hacker D." wrote:
>
> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Why do people always assume that C++ can't do what C can do? It is
> > absurd. Low level access has absolutely nothing to do with it. There
> > is almost nothing you can do in C which can not also be done in C++.
>
> Probably for the same reason people assume C++ is a true O-O language,
> and it isn't. It's just C retrofitted with an O-O layer on top and
> tighther type checking. Granted, C++ is great for doing stuff that is
> high level, but if you're doing low-level stuff that doesn't require
> modularization via C++ classes, why even bother? Plus, in the real
> world implementations, (G++ vs. Gcc), C++ programs take slightly
> longer to compile, and are linked against libstdc++. This is an
> unnecessary library to link against if you're using only C features in
> C++. So, it's an implentation vs. theory issue.
C++ programs do not need libstdc++ unless you use funcions in it. Using C++
over C, even with mainly C like syntax has the advantage of beinh able to
declare variables anywhere in a function. C sucks at that, variables must be
defined at the top. Plus there is some good type checking which helps. I would
say why bother with C at all?
>
> > <RANT>
> > GNOME is written in C for some stupidly flawed logic. I have yet to see a
> > reasonable explanation, with the possible exception that the original
> > developers only knew C and decided that ignorance was a better strategy than
> > actually learning about computers and computing languages.
>
> Some C++ programmers are really terrible O-O programmers, but some C
> programmers might be wonderful O-O programmers. You can still do O-O
> with structs (and typedef structs) in C, and perhaps some C
> programmers are able to make good use of whatever limited features C
> has. It's already been demonstrated that you can do O-O in pure C.
C++ will help the good OO programmer. C will hinder that person.
>
> > KDE, IMHO, is far more stable BECAUSE it uses C++. GNOME is a pitiful hack
> > which attempts an object oriented paradigm who's design criteria directly
> > adheres to the strengths of C++, yet they chose not to use C++.
>
> What?! I don't understand what stability has to do with C vs. C++.
> It's not what the language can do, it's the way that you use it that counts.
The GNOME guys rolled their own OO paridigm for GNOME. They create virtual
tables for each class, they manage inhritence, etc. The C++ compiler handles
that for you, thus it is difficult to make a mistake. On top of the, the V
tables are not in the heap as they are GNOME. A stray pointer overwrite can put
you in the wrong code in a member function call. A C++ program does not have
this behavior. That is just one reason, there are more.
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