Linux-Misc Digest #174, Volume #27               Tue, 20 Feb 01 12:13:01 EST

Contents:
  Re: Replicate/Clone RH6.2 Linux (Jim Thomas)
  Re: What is this? (Jean-David Beyer)
  Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!? (Terence Hoosen)
  Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!? ("Nils O. Selåsdal")
  Re: Slackware Package building (David)
  Re: Two Linuces in a box? (John E Garrott Sr)
  Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!? (bv)
  Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!? (bv)
  Re: "HOSTNAME=" problem with DSL DHCP (Rod Smith)
  Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else (Robert Surenko)
  Re: Why i cant make my pc to work as a router or gateway ? (Rod Smith)
  Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else (Robert Surenko)
  Re: Two Linuces in a box? (Rod Smith)
  Re: What is this? (Rod Smith)
  Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else ("Peter T. Breuer")
  Re: fastest SCSI CDROM drive (Kent Perrier)
  Re: replacing startx with startx -- +xinerama (Pankaj Chauhan)
  Re: What is this? ("Peter T. Breuer")
  Re: about installation of Linux (bv)
  Re: fastest SCSI CDROM drive ("Peter T. Breuer")

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: 
comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Replicate/Clone RH6.2 Linux
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:07:24 -0500

Tim Moore wrote:
>
> 5. Note that dd makes low level byte by byte copies.  If the system
> disks are very big (eg- > 10GB) or have much unused space this could
> take longer than it's worth.
[snip]

I used a similar procedure last summer to install 20 RH6.2 133MHz
Pentium boxen with ~2G harddrives.  Each HD took about 30 minutes to
duplicate, which is about the same amount of time it took to to an
install.  Except that I didn't have to tend the boxes and answer
dialogs.  

I had two different HD types, and dd would not work between the
different types (even though both HD's had the same CHS settings).  But
that was OK - I just got two setup's going at the same time.

After I moved the HD's into the target box, I changed the hostname/ip
address and ran Xconfigurator (because we were reusing the old monitors
with the newly acquired CPU's).

-- 
Jim Thomas                            E-mail:     [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
Senior Applications Engineer          Web:     http://www.bittware.com
Bittware, Inc                         Tel:              (703) 779-7770
Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin

------------------------------

From: Jean-David Beyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is this?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:12:17 -0500

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote (in part):

[snip]
> 
> Rpc.statd is part of NFS and it is really dangerous to have that
> open to the internet. It would not be too surprising if your
> machine has already been compromised.
> 
Could you clarify this? Since I run NFS, I assume I need to have
rpc.statd running. It does not appear in /etc/inetd.conf, so I
suppose it is difficult to protect from Internet crackers. But what
is especially dangerous about this one compared to something like
sendmail or named (bind) that can take measures of their own to
protect themselves?

-- 
 .~.  Jean-David Beyer           Registered Linux User 85642.
 /V\                             Registered Machine    73926.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey
^^-^^ 10:05am up 22 days, 18:32, 4 users, load average: 2.16, 2.08,
2.06

------------------------------

From: Terence Hoosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:16:06 +0000

bv wrote:

> My hosts file looks like this:
> 
> 127.0.0.1       localhost.localdomain   localhost
>

Hmm.  What hostname shows up in linuxconf and when you login?
Is it localhost?  If not, try adding a line (keeping the localhost line 
intact) in /etc/hosts like this:

127.0.0.1        my_host_name        my_host_nick

where my_host_name is the fully qualified domain name of your host and 
my_host_nick is the shortened name.
Does that help at all?

-Tez


------------------------------

Reply-To: "Nils O. Selåsdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Nils O. Selåsdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:18:28 +0100


"bv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:96tru6$aoa$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Terence Hoosen wrote:
>
> > bv wrote
> [...]
> >> Since this new installation I get error messages from many programs,
> >> including the X-Server, GNOME and several others. The messages all say
> >> that the local host name cannot be found. So xinetd and all services
that
> >> listen on TCP/IP ports do not work. In linuxconf, though, the hostname
> >> appears correctly, the environment variable for hostname is also set.
> >> What can be the reason? Any hints appreciated.
>
> > Are your IP and hostname in /etc/hosts ?
>
> My hosts file looks like this:
>
> 127.0.0.1       localhost.localdomain   localhost
And your /etc/resolv.conf ?
And you are not running any nameservers?
Do you have a network card?
What IP addresses are the services trying to listen on?




------------------------------

From: David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Slackware Package building
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:20:53 GMT

Stanislaw Flatto wrote:
> 
> Go alt.os.linux.slackware.
> Old and new Slackers sit there and discuss such subjects every day.
> 
> Stanislaw.
> Slack user from Ulladulla.

Thanks I'll check into it.

-- 
Confucius say: He who play in root, eventually kill tree.
Registered with the Linux Counter.  http://counter.li.org
ID # 123538
Completed more W/U's than 99.075% of seti users. +/- 0.01%

------------------------------

From: John E Garrott Sr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Two Linuces in a box?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:19:37 -0800

Ana Lyric wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know whether it is possible to have
> two Linuces (or more :-)) installed in one computer?
> I am just sick and tired of RH7.0 and I would like
> to try something else.
> 
> TIA,
> Ana

Yes.  I run Slackware and a Linux From Scratch
system on the same computer.

You need the disk space.  I run on a
30G hard drive partitioned thusly:

/dev/hdb1:  Swap                  0.5 G
/dev/hdb2:  Slackware             3.0 G
/dev/hdb3:  Linux From Scratch    3.0 G
/dev/hdb4:  Extended partitions:
        /dev/hdb5:  /opt          1.5 G
        /dev/hdb6:  /usr/local    1.5 G
        /dev/hdb7:  /home         The rest

Because I use different kernels (2.2.18 in
Slackware, 2.4.0 in LFS) in the
two main partitions, I boot LFS from a
floppy.

Of course you can do with less space.  I
ran something similar on my previous 
machine with an 8.4 G drive.

Good luck,

John

------------------------------

From: bv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:40:12 +0100

Terence Hoosen wrote:

>> 127.0.0.1       localhost.localdomain   localhost

> Hmm.  What hostname shows up in linuxconf and when you login?
> Is it localhost?  If not, try adding a line (keeping the localhost line
> intact) in /etc/hosts like this:

> 127.0.0.1        my_host_name        my_host_nick

OK I added the following line
127.0.0.1       tornado

I don't have a fully qualified DNS name because I dial in via ISDN/Sync PPP.

> Does that help at all?

Didn't seem to help. I restarted xinetd, but the problem is still there. Do 
I need to restart my system?

-- 
Bastian Voigt
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

------------------------------

From: bv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Q: local host name cannot be resolved ?!?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:42:55 +0100

Nils O. Selåsdal wrote:

>> My hosts file looks like this:
>> 127.0.0.1       localhost.localdomain   localhost

> And your /etc/resolv.conf ?

domain uni-duisburg.de
search unidui arcor
nameserver 134.91.4.3
nameserver 145.253.2.11
nameserver 134.91.4.11

> And you are not running any nameservers?
Nope.

> Do you have a network card?
> What IP addresses are the services trying to listen on?
I have a ethernet card and a ISDN card. I dial into the university network 
via ISDN/sync ppp, the ethernet card is just for a small local network.


-- 
Bastian Voigt
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Smith)
Subject: Re: "HOSTNAME=" problem with DSL DHCP
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:02:12 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Posted and mailed]

In article <iWnk6.394$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        "Tom Edelbrok" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I have just gotten set up with TELUS DSL in BC Canada. My W98 and WinNT work
> perfect using DHCP, although in the instructions they ask you to remove the
> domain name and DNS server and WINS entries from your TCP/IP setup.
> 
> But when I boot under Linux it hangs on eth0 every time, then times out.
> 
> I discovered what is causing the problem: "/etc/sysconfig/network" contains
> the line "HOSTNAME=blade.mville.com", (everything works fine if I just
> delete this one line). But if I delete the line then my host name shows up
> as a bunch of gibberish at the Linux command line, ie: "allng675yaud#".
> 
> So I put in "HOSTNAME=blade", but then it won't bring up eth0!

Try deleting the line and then using a separate hostname command in a
later startup script, like /etc/rc.d/rc.local on many systems. For
instance:

hostname blade.mville.com

-- 
Rod Smith, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configuration

------------------------------

From: Robert Surenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:05:37 GMT

In comp.os.linux.misc Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Robert Surenko wrote:
>> 
>> In comp.os.linux.misc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:57:50 GMT, Robert Surenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>In comp.os.linux.misc Ian Davey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> > [deletia]
>> 
>> >       Then again, you are blathering about an historical even that
>> >       was caught on tape and who's firsthand witnesses are still
>> >       living.
>> 
>> Yes, but the experiment can not be repeated. In your previous
>> blatherings you claimed that the only way something can be known
>> is the Scientific Method, and it's reliable because the event can
>> be repeated.

> You don't have to repeat the shooting...all you need to do is exhume
> the body.

Your missing the point. How do we "know" that a historical event happened?

-- 
=============================================================================
- Bob Surenko                              [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://www.fred.net/surenko/                               
=============================================================================

------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Smith)
Subject: Re: Why i cant make my pc to work as a router or gateway ?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:12:57 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Posted and mailed]

In article <TNqk6.18361$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        "Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi
> 
> In my schools lab I have a PC connected to the network with an IP address of
> 192.168.0.60 from our network manager,  shown as PC1 below. Since I have
> three computers, I want to connect all of them to the network. I have
> therefore put two net cards in PC1 and using IP masquerading to connect the
> others computer through PC1 to the network too, or making PC1 as a router /
> gateway.
> 
> I have installed and running ipchains and ipfwadm. I can only ping from PC2
> and PC3 to both net cards of PC1, but I cant Ping to other computer
> connected to the network. From PC1 i  can ping to all computer connected to
> my network, but not from PC2 and PC3.
> 
> The scripts I use for the packet forwarding are as followes.
> 
> ipfwadm -F -f
> ipfwadm -F -a accept -P tcp -S 192.168.1.0/24  -D 0/0 80
> ipfwadm -F -a accept -P tcp -S 0/0 80 -D 192.168.1.0/24

I'm not familiar with ipfwadm, which is an older utility that's used
mainly on 2.0.x kernels. If you've got a 2.2.x kernel, you're probably
better off using ipchains.

If your private network is private (you've got just one IP address for
all three computers), you need to set up IP masquerading. This can be
done, in a minimal way, thus:

ipchains -P forward DENY
ipchains -A forward -j MASQ -s 192.168.1.0/24 -d 0.0.0.0/0
echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

For more information, consult the ipchains and/or IP Masquerading HOWTO
documents (at http://www.linuxdoc.org, among many other places), or
check an introductory book on Linux networking (I list several,
including one by me that covers this topic, at
http://www.rodsbooks.com/books/books-network.html).

Note that the new 2.4.x kernels use a new utility, iptables, instead of
ipchains. (The 2.4.x kernel may be compiled with ipchains support
instead of iptables, though, if you must have the older utility.)
Therefore, if you plan to upgrade to a 2.4.x kernel any time soon, you
may want to do it now and configure an iptables-based system rather than
deal with ipchains.

-- 
Rod Smith, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configuration

------------------------------

From: Robert Surenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:16:22 GMT

In comp.os.linux.misc John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Surenko writes:
>> Materialism claims that nothing can be known but from observation of the
>> 5 senses.

>> I'm arguing that there are other ways to know something. In this case the
>> historical record.

> You claim to possess a method of gaining access to the historical record
> that does not involve the senses?

Yes, of course I would have to "see" the documents. But if one
presupposes a rational world, then proving "facts" by historical
reasoning is in essence something else.

It says that not only does the Scientific Method lead to knowlege,
but so does deductive reasoning, which is not a matter of material.


> -- 
> John Hasler
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
> Dancing Horse Hill
> Elmwood, WI

-- 
=============================================================================
- Bob Surenko                              [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://www.fred.net/surenko/                               
=============================================================================

------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Smith)
Subject: Re: Two Linuces in a box?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:18:51 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Posted and mailed]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        Ana Lyric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know whether it is possible to have
> two Linuces (or more :-)) installed in one computer?
> I am just sick and tired of RH7.0 and I would like
> to try something else.

Sure. There are some caveats, though. These Linuxes should *NOT* share
most system directories, like most of /usr or /var. /usr/local is OK to
share, if it's a separate partition. So is /home, although you may need
to futz with configuration files so they work properly with both
Linuxes. You'll need to either install LILO on both Linuxes' boot
partitions and use another boot loader (like System Commander, OS/2's
Boot Manager, etc.); or configure one LILO to boot both versions of
Linux. This can be done in several ways, such as mounting the other
Linux boot partition and creating a LILO entry that points to the other
system's kernel and specifies its root partition. You *MAY* be able to
use one kernel for both Linuxes, but this doesn't always work correctly,
in my experience. If you try, you'll need to copy the kernel modules (in
/lib/modules/x.y.z, where x.y.z is the version number) from the system
on which they were compiled to the other Linux.

-- 
Rod Smith, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configuration

------------------------------

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Smith)
Subject: Re: What is this?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:37:41 -0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Posted and mailed]

In article <gPsk6.33877$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        "rc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Feb 19 02:34:17 lnx sendmail[763]: CAA00763: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... User
> unknown

[more like this snipped.]

If your system is the mail server for ccsn.com, it looks like somebody
is trying to spam random addresses or is fishing for usernames, possibly
as a prelude to crack your system. If your system has no connection to
ccsn.com, it looks like somebody's trying to use your system as a mail
relay for spam. This has apparently been unsuccessful, but I'm puzzled
as to the quantity of messages -- you'd think the spammer software would
give up after the first attempt or two. It might be that some are
getting through. You may want to check the following URL for spam
prevention information:

http://mail-abuse.org/tsi/

> I keep finding this in my maillog.  I also find this in my messages log:
> 
> Feb 19 22:54:14 lnx rpc.statd[329]: gethostbyname error for

[stuff that displays VERY strangely deleted]

This looks like an attempt to exploit some sort of buffer overrun bug.
If successful, rpc.statd would execute the code sent by the cracker,
presumably giving the cracker access to your system. As a general rule,
such attacks, if successful, don't appear in the log, but I can't
promise that's true in this particular case (I don't know what bug your
cracker was trying to exploit).

IIRC, rpc.statd is related to NFS. This normally should not be
accessible to the Internet. You can block access to the relevant ports
by setting up ipchains (or iptables, on 2.4.x kernels) rules, or you can
set up a firewall to protect your entire network. You'd be well advised
to do this now. In fact, you should probably do at least minimal
checking to be sure your system hasn't already been compromised. If
you'r using an RPM-based system, "rpm -Va" will produce a list of files
that have changed since installation. This list will probably be long
because of legitimate changes, but changes to binaries or configuration
files you know you haven't touched should raise a red flag.
Unfortunately, the RPM database itself can be compromised, so a clean
bill of health from this test doesn't necessarily mean you're safe.

Unfortunately, network security is a complex topic. You may want to
read up on it, at least minimally. There are Web sites like
http://www.cert.org and http://ciac.llnl.gov that provide general
information. There's a Linux Administrator's Security Guide at
http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/lasg/. There are many books on Linux and
UNIX security (I list some at
http://www.rodsbooks.com/books/books-network.html).

> Feb 20 03:11:55 lnx pumpd[251]: renewed lease for interface eth0

This is normal if your network uses DHCP and your system is a DHCP
client. DHCP "leases" IP addresses from a central DHCP server, which
keeps track of which ones are in use. DHCP requires periodic lease
"renewal," to keep the list of used IP addresses reasonably up-to-date.
This message just indicates that pumpd (one of several DHCP clients for
Linux) has successfully renewed its lease.

-- 
Rod Smith, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configuration

------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:46:19 GMT

In comp.os.linux.misc Robert Surenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Robert Surenko wrote:
>>> In comp.os.linux.misc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> Yes, but the experiment can not be repeated. In your previous
>>> blatherings you claimed that the only way something can be known
>>> is the Scientific Method, and it's reliable because the event can
>>> be repeated.

>> You don't have to repeat the shooting...all you need to do is exhume
>> the body.

> Your missing the point. How do we "know" that a historical event happened?

We do not miss the point. We know it because we can subject the question
to test. There are archives and witnesses and things that have been influenced
by the event in such a way as to make them distinct from the way they would
have been if the event had not happened. In this case, "the body" is one
of those things. While we cannot say for certain that the event did or did
not happen (nor tell whether a human being is or is not really a computer
with a biological facade), we can become reasonably sure, to most peoples
satisfaction, that it did.

For one thing, I remember it - and/or think I do.

Peter

------------------------------

From: Kent Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fastest SCSI CDROM drive
Date: 20 Feb 2001 10:44:47 -0600

Well, all SCSI CDROM drives accelerate at 32 ft/sec^2 and they have
a terminal velocity of about 160 miles/hour (if I remember correctly.)
So it makes little difference which one you choose...

:) 

Kent
-- 
Guns are no more responsible for killing people than spoons are
responsible for making Rosie O'Donnell and Oprah Winfrey fat.

------------------------------

From: Pankaj Chauhan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: 
alt.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: replacing startx with startx -- +xinerama
Date: 20 Feb 2001 11:49:56 -0500


I think this is a better solution
edit /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf
there is an entry for X server, just pass xinerama or whatever option
to it.

>My problem however is that right now my etc/inittab file has me going
>to only run level 3. if I change this value to 5, the systems takes
>me to a graphical logon..but with only one monitor. My guess is that
>the system is still strying to run startx as opposed to startx --
>+xinerama. Where

-- 
- Pankaj

======================================================================
             "Great ideas are like internet domain names, the ones
              I get are already taken up by Knuth, Neumann, Turing 
              and the likes....."
======================================================================

------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What is this?
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:56:22 GMT

Jean-David Beyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote (in part):

> [snip]
>> 
>> Rpc.statd is part of NFS and it is really dangerous to have that
>> open to the internet. It would not be too surprising if your
>> machine has already been compromised.
>> 
> Could you clarify this? Since I run NFS, I assume I need to have
> rpc.statd running. It does not appear in /etc/inetd.conf, so I
> suppose it is difficult to protect from Internet crackers. But what
> is especially dangerous about this one compared to something like
> sendmail or named (bind) that can take measures of their own to
> protect themselves?

Nothing in particular .. it's just been rather weak against buffer overflow
exploits lately. I am very happy with mine :-). 

You should firewall and hosts.deny it off, though. That only leaves it 
for those people who are already in to have a go at. Big deal .. if they
are in and can physically access one machine with nfs as root, they can
get most places by other means. No statd required. This has always been the
case, as long as nfs (v2) has been around. It is not an inherently secure
medium.

Peter

------------------------------

From: bv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: about installation of Linux
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:44 +0100

Hugh Lawson wrote:

> 1. How to use the program  .../dosutils/rawrite.exe to copy
> /images/boot.img to a floppy.

> 2. How to boot your computer with the Linux kernel contained in boot.img,
> which you put on the floppy.

> 3. Once you have booted the computer with boot.img, figure out how to
> use this to start Linux rather than make another install. You should
> be able to do this. I'm not sure about this but I think that when you
> boot 'boot.img', the beginning screen will give you directions on this.

> 4. Then you have to figure out how to make an lilo.conf file and run
> /sbin/lilo to install the Linux bootloader.

5. Check the boot sequence in your bios setup. If you want to boot from 
floppy, set boot sequence to "A, C" or sth. similar.


-- 
Bastian Voigt
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fastest SCSI CDROM drive
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:06:26 GMT

Kent Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, all SCSI CDROM drives accelerate at 32 ft/sec^2 and they have
> a terminal velocity of about 160 miles/hour (if I remember correctly.)
> So it makes little difference which one you choose...

Hmmm ... which floor are you on?

Peter

------------------------------


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