Mimmo
As Martyn addressed a few words to me, I tried to reply, but it
would have been better had he asked you directly. Clearly, it is
better to read the words of a skilled person, such as yourself, who
has spent many years both saving knowledge that otherwise would have
been lost, and experimenting with historic methods adapted to modern
times, than to read my very vague speculations. They were
speculations, however, and not affirmations. I don't mind in the
least that they are proved completely unfounded. It is probably a
good thing that speculations and even myths are formulated, so that
they can be shown to be unfounded. Otherwise, these ideas would just
continue to circulate.
Thank you for helping to clarify things, which I believe is extremely
useful.
Best regards
Anthony
Le 25 aout 07 =E0 11:45, Mimmo Peruffo a ecrit :
> However, the use of a single gut was not my speculation but
> a view which has been put forward for some time (Eph Segerman for
> one): the idea was not that trebles were made from a single piece cut
> from one large gut (which might contain many local irregularities)
> but from a single, slightly trimmed and particularly well selected,
> smaller gut
>
> This is another point that place mistakes with a lack of any
> evidence, in practise way that we stringmakers knows.
> There is no special uniform intestines. All intestines are very
> similar so it is not possible to try out the more uniform because
> they simply do not exist
> I wonder if Martyn worked on gut strings enought time to check,
> under hundred of them, if his affermation is true. the same
> consideration with Eph Segerman that is just a great scholar (I
> consider he in some way my theacher...) but not a stringmaker.
> I am agaist to all this: I can accept consideration if they came
> out from one well know gut, because it is his work and so he is
> able check hundred guts everyday .
> You see: as consequence, many in the chat believe that theswe
> things are true, just because someone is able to write in a nice
> manner.
> The question is very different:
> 1) whole gut are, generally speaching not uniform. Do not exist a
> special uniform gut every 10 guts or so on
> 2) the gauge of a 1 single lamb gut, after drying, is TOO THICK to
> produce, . .40-.45 mm gauge that is more or less the 1st lute
> string They go arround .70-90 mm gauge
> 3) A string made out of 1 whole lamb gut is ALWAYS quite irregular,
> false and fragile under stetching; I mean that it broken very fast
> before to reach the g'' note.
> 4) Strings of Munich were very omogeneus, (not conical: capirola
> 1517 ca): impossible to obtain with a whole unsplit gut
>
> I am specking of lambs of 1 age old here, like those indicates by
> some stringmaker's statutes of that age.
> You can easily understand that the question is completely open??
> I will produce soon some pictures of lute 1st made from a whole
> lamb gut and another made by strands: this just for a comparation.
> Lute 1st were, at the time, very good: soemtime 4 weeks of lifetime
> and high breacking index, similar to nylon.
> That is
> Ciao
> Mmmo
> _________________________________
>
> Aquila Corde Armoniche S.a.s
> www.aquilacorde.com
> Phone +39 0444 986972
> Fax +39 0444 989399
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anthony Hind
> To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 11:20 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Rep : [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - 'Universale corde
> musicali'
>
>
> Le 25 aout 07 =E0 08:49, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit :
>
> Dear Anthony,
>
> I do, of course, generally bow to Mimmo Peruffo's undoubted
> experience and knowledge of gut strings and, indeed, very much look
> forward to his revamped loaded strings due to be launched this
> Autumn. However, the use of a single gut was not my speculation but
> a view which has been put forward for some time (Eph Segerman for
> one): the idea was not that trebles were made from a single piece cut
> from one large gut (which might contain many local irregularities)
> but from a single, slightly trimmed and particularly well selected,
> smaller gut. I recall that the tapered strings described in the
> Capirola MS were also cited as supporting evidence.
> Dear Martyn
> I don't think M.P. questions that a single gut could have been used
> to make a treble, but rather that it would be stronger than a twist
> of sliced gut. He mentions both type of string in his article in the
> Lute news N=B0 79 P.14-15, and concludes that the complex string was
> stronger than the simple one.
> I have made no such experiments myself, so I can't judge. I also
> wondered whether older sheep breeds (that have now been lost) might
> have had different gut qualities; but again that is complete
> speculation on my part. I also wonder whether the type of grass (salt
> marsh, hill farming, etc...), could have any effect; but I am again
> speculating.
>
> However, even if it were true that an old breed of sheep, say the
> Soam, would give excellent gut, particularly if you castrated the
> rams, and if you fed them on whatever, fodder, it seems unlikely that
> there is the finance for such experimentation, unless the CNRS
> receives vastly increased funds for musical projects, (from President
> Sarkozy, I am joking) as they did in the 60s and 70s (see the CNRS
> Astree lute recordings and lute editions) , or the American military
> finance fundamental research again, as they did in the 60s for
> American Linguists (Yes, Noam Chomsky's first linguist productions
> were actually financed by the American military establishment, and I
> have never seen a fighter knocked down by one of his text-books --
> well, no, they naively hoped to use them to break Soviet codes.)
>
>
> My reason for price concern is that with 16 partly or fully gut
> strung (and fretted) instruments to maintain the cost of gut can be a
> real issue (as no doubt for the Old Ones - look how much some were
> paid to keep their instruments in strings).
>
> I think gut strings may have cost ten times the price they do now to
> the Old Ones.
> However, I made no comment on that. Obviously, the more instruments
> we have the more expensive it becomes. I am not going to discourage
> you. There are not so many people with that number of instruments who
> keep them in gut. I suggested you might look at Purr'll gut, because
> I saw how cheap they would be for top strings (and these do break so
> frequently).
> Others use Sofracob, for similar reasons, but they are not all that
> strong.
> I often use Kurschner, for the simple reason that a local shop stocks
> them, just round the corner from me. I had problems with them,
> however, buzzing and untrue on my 4th course, and now I use Venice in
> that position
>
> For myself, I have only one lute, I hope soon two. Therefore, I see
> gut strings as not being that expensive (price of a glass of wine at
> a restaurant); when we see that the string makers have generally made
> this research for their own benefit, and don't really pass on all
> their fundamental costs. I would not be surprised if we are partly
> subsidized by synthetics purchasers.
>
> I'm also interested in the responses that Universale's strings are
> particularly strong - I wonder if they wholesale supply some better
> known companies who may not actually make their own gut from scratch
> (eg Kurschner)?
>
> I don't know about any relation between Unviersale/Kurschener, but
> Mimmo says that there is a relation between Baroco/Universale.
>
> Saytoh uses Unversale tops according to Ed for their strength. David
> says they are a little harsh.
> Maybe there is a relation between stiffness/strength and harshness.
> You may not be able to have everything in one string.
>
> A year ago, Universale told me that they made two string types, one
> Cow (I don't know whether it is actually Ox, as in 'as strong as an
> ox', David, the other Ram. The Cow was the cheaper of the two. They
> said the Ram was warmer but more fragile.
>
> I have not tried either, but Ed and David have much experience, and
> contact with gut users. I think if we put what both say, together
> with what Universale actually says, then you may be able to have a
> cheaper stronger, but harsher cow string, or a more expensive, but
> more fragile sheep (or ram) string. Again I have no direct experience
> of this. When I have bought strings, the animal origin has never been
> marked on it.
>
> In this respect, it could be interesting to compare Kurschner and
> Nick Baldock's top strings. They are supposed to be similar in
> process, but the Kurschner are supposed to be stiffer, and the
> Baldock softer and more flexible. I would predict more warmth, but
> less strength in the Baldock, according to the above, but I don't
> know.
>
> However, I thought that the strength was at least partly determined
> by the various solutions the gut was soaked in and also the way it is
> twisted. Then of course varnish may help a string last, but also make
> it squeaky, as David says.
> Mimmo Peruffo is also using a process of semi-rectification which
> damages the fibres less (as in the hand rectification of old strings).
>
> Good luck with your research, and get back to us with your results.
> It would be good to have a database of peoples experiments with
> strings on particular lutes, to refer to.
> However, strings are such a personal matter, it may be difficult to
> do other than experiment oneself.
> Martin Shepherd seems to be absent from the discussion (perhaps
> esacaping the weather), but he often has wise words on gut strings.
> As he strings his lutes for his clients, and also teaches, he
> probably comes into contact with more string situations than many
> of us.
> Best regards
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
> MH
>
> Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mimmo
> You are right to say that few of us know anything about string
> making. I try to glean information from various places on the web,
> and largely fill in with my imagination, I fear.
>
> I also have to interpret what I read and without actually seeing the
> processes, probably misunderstand.
>
> I hope some of what I said was near the mark, but do feel free to
> correct me, I do want to learn.
> Best regards
> Anthony
>
> Le 24 aout 07 =E0 18:54, Mimmo Peruffo a ecrit :
>
> > No, no! martin is in mistake
> > A whole single gut produce a more irregular and weaker string than
> > those made from split strands.
> > I find a lot of these affermations on the web from those that know
> > nothng or few about stringmaking.
> > Strings amed with more strand, at the same gauges are:
> > more uniform
> > more strong
> > Ciao
> > Mimmo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________
> >
> > Aquila Corde Armoniche S.a.s
> > www.aquilacorde.com
> > Phone +39 0444 986972
> > Fax +39 0444 989399
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Anthony Hind
> > To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:49 PM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - 'Universale corde musicali'
> >
> > Martyn
> > I just had a thought. If price is your main concern, for whatever
> > reason, you could look at Banjo strings. Martin Shepherd, I think,
> > told me he sometimes uses Purr'll Gut Strings for his top string.
> > Their prices look very cheap, but I don't know about the quality.
> > Perhaps Martyn used them on the top, because they were very strong,
> > or because he wants cheap relacements, for the string which breaks
> > most.
> > http://gourdbanjo.com/GBhtml/gut.html
> >
> > Regarding your remark, "you may also be aware of the view that the
> > old trebles had a significantly higher tensile strength because
> they
> > were made of a single well selected gut rather than two or three
> > thinner guts twisted together which inevitably introduced an
> element
> > of discontinuity within the string",
> > that is why I mentioned a possible size difference between sheep
> > today, and in the past.
> > On the other hand, trebles today, are not made from two or three
> > thinner guts, but thicker gut cut down into strips, and then
> twisted
> > together. The gut now seems to be too thick to be used whole as a
> > treble (I think I am correct in this, but please anyone say, if I
> > have got it wrong).
> >
> > As to the Venice and the Pistoy, they are a twist of strings,
> > themselves made of twisted sliced gut. They are not top strings,
> but
> > for 4th down to 6th, at the smallest.
> > Best regards
> > Anthony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 24 aout 07 =E0 18:05, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit :
> >
> > >
> > > Many thanks for this Anthony.
> > >
> > > My main motive for asking was the increasing cost of gut
> > > (especially fret gut oddly enough) and Universale's prices seemed
> > > very competitive - hence if their quality was OK then I'd order
> > > from them rather than MP or Sofracob or Kurschner or others. In
> > > your email I'm not wholly clear if the Venice strings which you
> > > mention as being v good are Aquila's or Universale's -
> grateful for
> > > clarification.
> > >
> > > Regarding numbers of guts in a string, you may also be aware of
> > > the view that the old trebles had a significantly higher tensile
> > > strength because they were made of a single well selected gut
> > > rather than two or three thinner guts twisted together which
> > > inevitably introduced an element of discontinuity within the
> > > string: I'm not aware that modern string makers have taken this
> > > challenge up yet.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > MH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Anthony Hind wrote:
> > > Dear Martyn
> > > I don't know whether they are similar to Aquila Venice which
> > > are a twine of two elements, and not a tress of three like
> Pistoys.
> > > This according to Mimmo Perfuffo results in a more flexible
> string;
> > > but I suppose flexibilty may not be everything.
> > >
> > > I found the Venice very good, particularly on the 4th course,
> where
> > > Pistoys can't work.
> > > According to MP it doesn't matter what material (ram, cow etc)
> that
> > > the gut comes from. He claims to have made blind tests to prove
> > this.
> > >
> > > On the other hand today we no longer find gut made from whole
> gut,
> > > but strips. This might make a difference, perhaps. A friend of my
> > > daughter has begun to keep a couple of "vintage" rare breed
> sheep,
> > > and I notice how small and wild they look, more like miniature
> goats
> > > (even the female has horns). I wonder whether sheep up to the
> 17th
> > > century would not have been much smaller than today. I don't know
> > > whether that means the intestines would have been smaller
> though. It
> > > is just a thought.
> > >
> > > M.P. also tells me that he has now rediscovered much of the old
> > > technology in his ongoing research, and could produce some
> > strings as
> > > strong as nylon; however, the process would be painstakingly
> long,
> > > and I suppose they would be very expensive.
> > >
> > > I know that Dan Larson made a gimped string with tungsten that
> was
> > > exceptionally true, and well liked by the lucky few who could try
> > it.
> > > This may not be historic, but I suppose it was cost that meant
> the
> > > string remained in prototype form.
> > >
> > > I have the impression that if more lutists showed interest in gut
> > > strings, we would see some very interesting developments in this
> > area.
> > > Regards
> > > Anthony
> > >
> > > Le 24 aout 07 =E0 17:10, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit :
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Has anybody experience of strings by this specialist Italian
> > >> company offering 'Highest quality ram's and ox's gut strings for
> > >> Renaissance, Baroque and Classical performance'?
> > >>
> > >> On their website they only show price lists for violin and gamba
> > >> family instruments but offer 'Special ox's gut strings', High
> twist
> > >> ram gut strings' Venice catlines' amongs others so I suppose
> culd
> > >> provide suitable strings for lutes/guitars. Prices look good
> > >> (especially fret gut).
> > >>
> > >> MH
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> x's twist', 'Venice Catlines' so I suppose
> > >>
> > >>
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