Great question. The answer is simple. It would have been strung with a
standard treble, in the usual fashion. I have not worked out what the top
pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415. The
whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest
course would have been around F, not A. Keep in mind, these are 13 course
baroque lutes with first & 2nd course single, then courses 12 & 13 on bass
riders. To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string "as high as it
goes", and not concerning where "f" is.
ed
At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
Ed
What sort of treble string could support 81cm?
I am amazed.
Anthony
Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit :
At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.
However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.
"One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"
Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?
Yes.
In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and
thumb?
Yes, definitely, for the thumb.
It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).
I doubt that but who knows?
You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?
Those ARE the string lengths. 76 and 81 or 82 cm. HUGE baroque
lutes! They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch
than f at 415.
Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony
Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :
Anthony, and all,
I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is
undetermined,
but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.
Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as
he had
great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go
to the
trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks...... that would be silly. The scratches are from
after the
conversion.
No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and
they
were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made
using an
interesting technique.... the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now. The evidence of the "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.
Thanks!
ed
At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the
Edlinger
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html
However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could
well
indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were
left when
it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
" One player played
near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as
well as
the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger
marks. One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as
there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this
particular
instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques. " Ed
This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance
traces
might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its
Renaissance
sound board.
I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how
old the
soundboards are.
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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