Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this MH Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jaroslaw Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear. > >> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the >> "theorbo" >> tuning mentioned by Baron? >> Are Vidar Boye Hansen >> Anthony
Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, JarosÅaw Lipski a écrit : > Anthony, > Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from > guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium > length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The > result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with > small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was > very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my > fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the > fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low > tension and rather low string action in the place where the right > hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in > a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the > places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This > however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact > that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-) > Best wishes > > Jaroslaw > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM > To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - > another thought > > Ed > I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking > through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving > similar marks? > Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of > extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. > Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ > sharktoothpickproducts.html > They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to > construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. > Anthony > > Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : > >> No trouble at all, Martyn. >> >> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course >> lute, as >> I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near >> the >> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this >> position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks >> would be >> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th >> course, down >> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 >> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, >> accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the >> rose, but >> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc >> pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. >> >> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and >> not from a >> strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have >> also asked >> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque >> lutenist >> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and >> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is >> amazing. >> >> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to >> the >> pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very >> long >> time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different >> baroque >> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a >> musician playing close to the bridge. >> >> ed >> >> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was >>> played in >>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they >>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to >>> 13th >>> courses would run? >>> >>> Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might >>> still >>> have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. >>> You'll >>> know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became >>> relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, >>> Padovetz, >>> Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more >>> courses >>> were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums >>> playing >>> a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg >>> www.harpguitars.net has many pictures. >>> >>> MH >>> >>> Edward Martin wrote: >>> Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from >>> playing >>> a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were >>> in the >>> castle attic for "a very long time". >>> >>> ed >>> >>> >>> >>> At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >>>> Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the >>>> movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before >>>> 1907), >>>> perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? >>>> >>>> MH >>>> >>>> Edward Martin wrote: >>>> Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to >>>> be in >>>> storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a >>>> "Heckel" looked >>>> at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. >>>> >>>> ed >>>> >>>> .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +0000, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >>>>> Thank you for this. >>>>> >>>>> Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the >>>>> rose sound >>>>> a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. >>>>> Could it have >>>>> been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th >>>>> century? I >>>>> realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they >>>>> might not >>>>> have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son >>>>> of the >>>>> house having a strum on the old lute he found in the >>>>> attic...................... >>>>> >>>>> MH >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edward Martin wrote: >>>>> Dear ones, >>>>> >>>>> I have an interesting story. >>>>> >>>>> Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of >>>>> Music, in >>> South >>>>> Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have >>>>> many, many >>>>> lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also >>>>> have guitars >>>>> by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by >>>>> Stradivarius, Ganeri, >>>>> Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. >>>>> >>>>> The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined >>>>> them for >>>>> about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, >>>>> etc. They >>>>> have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is >>>>> 76 cm >>>>> mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps >>>>> originally by >>>>> Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were >>>>> converted >>>>> to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer >>>>> instrument in >>>>> 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 >>>>> ribs of >>> bird's >>>>> eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. >>>>> >>>>> What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented >>>>> that these >>>>> lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It >>>>> appeared to me >>>>> that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy >>>>> usage, so >>>>> it was more than likely played at a professional level. One >>>>> player played >>>>> near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as >>>>> well as >>>>> the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger >>>>> marks. One >>>>> player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there >>>>> are >>>>> multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), >>>>> from a long >>>>> right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, >>>>> towards >>> the >>>>> neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this >>>>> particular >>>>> instrument, there were more than one player using very different >>>>> techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb >>>>> pointed >>>>> towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the >>>>> bridge. >>>>> >>>>> The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being >>>>> played >>> very >>>>> close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the >>>>> bridge was >>>>> worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there. >>>>> >>>>> It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same >>>>> family >>> in the >>>>> same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger >>>>> conversions to 13 >>>>> course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had >>>>> dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the >>>>> wear >>> on the >>>>> sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 >>>>> instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players. >>>>> >>>>> All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these >>> masterpieces, so >>>>> close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I >>>>> mentioned on >>>>> the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but >>>>> are very >>>>> open & obvious to the naked eye. >>>>> >>>>> ed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edward Martin >>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>>>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from >>>>> Yahoo! >>>>> - a smarter inbox. >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: >>> 2/5/2008 >>>>> 8:57 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Edward Martin >>>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from >>>> Yahoo! >>>> - a smarter inbox. >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: >>>> 2/6/2008 >>>> 8:14 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Edward Martin >>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from >>> >>> us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/ >>> winter07.html>Yahoo! >>> - a smarter inbox. >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: >>> 2/6/2008 >>> 8:14 PM >> >> >> >> Edward Martin >> 2817 East 2nd Street >> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> voice: (218) 728-1202 >> >> >> > > > > --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. --
